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Toward Understanding Bill C-6 to Amend Citizenship Act; new 3/5 rule plus

cooldoc80

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Diplomatru said:
I don't want to report anybody, yourself included, but we need to make a collective effort to keep the thread informative so that everyone can benefit from it. If you turn it into a Lib/Con battlegrounds like you did in "Bringing Back 3 Year Residency by Repealing Bill C-24", we'll end up with 50 pages of meaningless flaming, which is impossible to navigate and make sense of.
totally agree ( the previous post of brining back 3 year residency ) really turned into a loooooong boring thread

please guys focus only on discussing the bill c-6

My 2 cent in this topic is the following :

-The liberals are very insisted and in a hurry to implement this law , this is obvious as they announced it only after 3 months of getting elected , why ? because first of all they believe in what they are doing and they are keeping their promise 2ndly and most importantly THEY WANT TO TURN THE highest number of immigrants into citizens before they next election so they could get the extra voices , and her i'm talking about millions of votes !! not a 25 thousand votes of the Syrian refugees , it much bigger than that


- so according to the above i dont believe than anybody in parliament , senates or what so ever will prevent them from doing this important step in their campaign , they will do what so ever to guarantee this happening ..

- also regarding those who are pessimistic about the processing time i'm 100 % sure that the liberal will keep the current processing time and even make it faster , because more new Canadians by next election and ALSO they dont want to delay those are just reaching the 4/6 year rule , because they want there share of votes and dont want them to turn to the conservative side on next election

sorry for the long message
good luck to all those who waited 3 or 4 years

A canadian is a canadian is a canadian
 

ni9981

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If they are going to restore the pre-PR credit, will there be a time frame they go back to? Say within the past 5 or 10 years?
 

Diplomatru

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Anyways, let's get back to business. C-24 second reading took place on 2014-05-29, almost 4 months after its introduction on 2014-02-06. And from second reading it cleared all other legislative stages and received Royal Ascent in less than a month (2014-06-19). Bill C6, on the other hand, will be debated in two weeks time (2016-03-09). So, this should give you an idea of how fast we may have a new fair Law.

Another very important bill (C4), which is aimed at repealing the damage to Labour code, is also on fast track (today it's debated at committee stage).
 

Diplomatru

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ni9981 said:
If they are going to restore the pre-PR credit, will there be a time frame they go back to? Say within the past 5 or 10 years?
You will have to meet 1095 days RO in five years to be eligible to apply. So, the pre-PR credit will fall in this five years timeframe.
 

dpenabill

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ni9981 said:
If they are going to restore the pre-PR credit, will there be a time frame they go back to? Say within the past 5 or 10 years?
Concur with Diplomatru.

Further observation and explanation:

This is a good question.

Except, obviously it cannot go back more than three years prior to the date of landing since the physical presence requirement itself is specifically the five years immediately before the date of the application and the minimum amount of credit for post-landing time is two years (since maximum for pre-landing is one of the three years required).

That is, any time to be credited has to be within five years of the date of the application (see section 1(2) in Bill C-6 which amends section 5.(1)(c)(i) of the current Citizenship Act, specifying the physical presence requirement to be "during the five years immediately before the date" of the application).

It is nonetheless a question worth asking. The way I read section 1 of Bill C-6 (focusing on physical presence requirement changes in 1(1), 1(2), and 1(7) which will add subsection 5.(1.001), the pre-landing credit provision), it does appear to allow pre-landing credit covering up to three years of pre-landing time, max credit being 365 days. The old law (3/4 rule) only allowed credit during a maximum two years before landing.

As currently constructed, overall the new 3/5 requirement will be significantly more liberal than what the requirements were even before Bill C-24.


NOTE regarding proposed changes:

Many of us mostly know the Canadian legislative process as we have observed it during the nine years of Conservative government under Harper. It was typical under Harper that legislation such as this did not get revised while going through the legislative process.

This may not be what happens going forward. The Liberals have vowed to engage in the democratic process, to consider the views of the opposition among others. This opens the door to amendments to the Bill along the way, something Harper typically did not allow to happen.

Which is to say, unlike under the last many years, there is at least a possibility that some of the provisions are revised before a final version of the Bill is adopted.
 

canvis2006

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my wife will be eligible earlier if this 3/5 becomes law, meaning we can apply right away then.
otherwise we were set to apply next feb.

One thing which sucks is the PR Card renewal time, its like 169 days!!
It sucks for anyone to have to renew pr card cuz it takes forever, its like 6-7 months almost. It should not take more than 1-2 months at most.

So this 3/5 will ensure people can apply/obtain citizenship without having to renew pr cards (for those that live here and meet the residency criteria).

Hope CIC can add more staff to process applications timely in ALL categories. Increase the fee is needed, but hire more staff and process quickly.
It would certainly help if they would make all forms as barcoded to make it easier/faster for data entry so its processed quicker.
 

meyakanor

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dpenabill said:
Concur with Diplomatru.

Further observation and explanation:

This is a good question.

Except, obviously it cannot go back more than three years prior to the date of landing since the physical presence requirement itself is specifically the five years immediately before the date of the application and the minimum amount of credit for post-landing time is two years (since maximum for pre-landing is one of the three years required).

That is, any time to be credited has to be within five years of the date of the application (see section 1(2) in Bill C-6 which amends section 5.(1)(c)(i) of the current Citizenship Act, specifying the physical presence requirement to be "during the five years immediately before the date" of the application).

It is nonetheless a question worth asking. The way I read section 1 of Bill C-6 (focusing on physical presence requirement changes in 1(1), 1(2), and 1(7) which will add subsection 5.(1.001), the pre-landing credit provision), it does appear to allow pre-landing credit covering up to three years of pre-landing time, max credit being 365 days. The old law (3/4 rule) only allowed credit during a maximum two years before landing.

As currently constructed, overall the new 3/5 requirement will be significantly more liberal than what the requirements were even before Bill C-24.


NOTE regarding proposed changes:

Many of us mostly know the Canadian legislative process as we have observed it during the nine years of Conservative government under Harper. It was typical under Harper that legislation such as this did not get revised while going through the legislative process.

This may not be what happens going forward. The Liberals have vowed to engage in the democratic process, to consider the views of the opposition among others. This opens the door to amendments to the Bill along the way, something Harper typically did not allow to happen.

Which is to say, unlike under the last many years, there is at least a possibility that some of the provisions are revised before a final version of the Bill is adopted.
The old 3/4 rule never really put any explicit restriction on how many pre-PR days might be included. The 'up-to-one-year' figure was just a natural consequence of the residency window to be considered, which was four years before the date of the application.

If you only consider a 4-year window, with pre-PR days counted as half days, then no matter the permutation, you would need to spend at least two years as a PR to reach the 1,095 day figure. Do the calculation yourself, and you'll see how you can never reach 1095 days with pre-PR days without becoming a PR for at least two years. For example, a combination of 3 years as non-PR and 1 year as a PR would only give you up to 2.5 years of residency, short of the required 3 years.

The proposed changes to pre-PR time would actually put an explicit cap on the number of days that can be accumulated pre-PR, because without the cap, then you could technically spend 4 years as non-PR (which would equate to 2 years of physical presence), and only spend a year as a PR before qualifying.
 

dpenabill

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More observations toward understanding the 3/5 Rule:

While elementary to many, for clarification:

Absolute minimum time after landing necessary to be qualified for citizenship will be exactly the same as it was before Bill C-24: two years. A person who was living in Canada prior to landing will be eligible exactly two years after landing if
-- that person never left Canada since landing
-- was in Canada 730 days within the three years prior to landing

Absolute minimum time in Canada after landing for those PRs who were not in Canada prior to landing will be exactly the same as it was before Bill C-24: three years. But again only if the person never leaves Canada during those three years.

Big difference between 3/5 Rule and the old 3/4 Rule: Physical presence requirement can be met by a PR even if on average the PR spends 145 days abroad a year. Under the 3/4 Rule, a PR who spent more than 91 days abroad per year would never meet the physical presence requirement.

And this allows considerable more flexibility than the 4/6 rule did, which allowed a PR to meet the physical presence requirement despite spending more than 120 days abroad on average each year.

One of the other aspects in which the flexibility of the 3/5 rule is salient is that under the 3/4 rule any time a student or temporary worker was abroad before landing and becoming a PR essentially required presence for two more days after landing. If the way it is now set out in Bill C-6 becomes law, those in Canada on student or temporary work permits will have far more flexibility so that they can still earn up to the maximum one year credit even if they take holidays abroad (this is similar to the observation by meyakanor).

Example of the latter; student goes to home country a month between semesters during the two years prior to landing
-- under old 3/4 rule, maximum credit for pre-landing time would be 305 days (actual calculation is complicated without an electronic calculator designed for the rule, so if 305 is not exact it is nonetheless close)
-- under proposed 3/5 rule, maximum credit will be 365 days . . . and actually this student could still get credit for that 365 days despite taking a month holiday abroad after landing, collecting half-day credits for any time in Canada within the five years, not just four, prior to applying
 

ni9981

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Feb 26, 2016
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Thanks for reply!
I studied and worked in Canada for many yrs and became PR in 2009 and I left in 2012 (both of my parents got seriously ill and I had to go back to take care of them. I didn't apply for citizenship at the time, because I thought I'd be back soon but I actually had to stay with my family for 2.5 years).

It was quite disappointing & saddening when I returned in 2014 realizing I'd lost all my pre-PR credit and the law had changed to 4/6. Now there is a hope to reduce it to 3/5, though I cannot benefit from my Pre-PR credit.

dpenabill said:
Concur with Diplomatru.

Further observation and explanation:

This is a good question.

Except, obviously it cannot go back more than three years prior to the date of landing since the physical presence requirement itself is specifically the five years immediately before the date of the application and the minimum amount of credit for post-landing time is two years (since maximum for pre-landing is one of the three years required).

That is, any time to be credited has to be within five years of the date of the application (see section 1(2) in Bill C-6 which amends section 5.(1)(c)(i) of the current Citizenship Act, specifying the physical presence requirement to be "during the five years immediately before the date" of the application).

It is nonetheless a question worth asking. The way I read section 1 of Bill C-6 (focusing on physical presence requirement changes in 1(1), 1(2), and 1(7) which will add subsection 5.(1.001), the pre-landing credit provision), it does appear to allow pre-landing credit covering up to three years of pre-landing time, max credit being 365 days. The old law (3/4 rule) only allowed credit during a maximum two years before landing.

As currently constructed, overall the new 3/5 requirement will be significantly more liberal than what the requirements were even before Bill C-24.


NOTE regarding proposed changes:

Many of us mostly know the Canadian legislative process as we have observed it during the nine years of Conservative government under Harper. It was typical under Harper that legislation such as this did not get revised while going through the legislative process.

This may not be what happens going forward. The Liberals have vowed to engage in the democratic process, to consider the views of the opposition among others. This opens the door to amendments to the Bill along the way, something Harper typically did not allow to happen.

Which is to say, unlike under the last many years, there is at least a possibility that some of the provisions are revised before a final version of the Bill is adopted.
 

dpenabill

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Nomenclature suggestion:

For reference, going forward it may be helpful to distinguish the different laws as such:

-- pre-Bill C-24 law as the old law or the 3/4 Rule

-- Citizenship Act as revised by Bill C-24 as the current law or the 4/6 Rule

-- proposed law per Bill C-6 as the proposed law or the new law or the 3/5 Rule

While there are numerous changes proposed by Bill C-6, beyond the high profile repeal of subsection 10.(2) and related provisions (repealing the provisions pursuant to which citizenship could be revoked for criminal acts committed while a citizen, eliminating what many have described as two-tiered citizenship), the main focus of interest in this forum, it is apparent, has to do with the changes affecting qualification for the grant of citizenship. In this respect, what distinguishes the old law, the current law, and the proposed law, is readily recognized and thus may be conveniently labelled the 3/4 Rule (old law), the 4/6 Rule (current law), and the 3/5 Rule (proposed new law).



In the meantime; some timeline observations:

There is no rush to interpret what the changes actually are.

Some interpretation is fairly straight-forward, even elementary (such as observations about how the 3/5 rule basically would work). Beyond the straight-forward, however, casual speculation without analysis is unnecessary and mere distraction. (There was way, way too much of that in response to the tabling of Bill C-24 two years ago, with the result that important discussions were sidetracked while red herrings sucked all the oxygen out of the room.)

It will be months before Bill C-6 goes to the second reading.

It seems highly unlikely that Bill C-6 will be adopted before the fall. For Bill C-6 to be adopted before the summer recess, this Bill would have to proceed through both the Parliament and Senate significantly faster than Bill C-24 did in 2014. Remember, Bill C-24 was rammed through the process about as fast as legislation can be pushed through. Consultations and committee study were truncated. Debate was limited. There was no allowance for proposing amendments. Bill C-24 went from the second reading to the Senate and to its third reading in Parliament in less than three weeks . . . it was only referred to committee on May 29, 2104, and fully adopted including receiving Royal Assent just three weeks later on June 19, 2014. How much study was done in the referral to committee?

In contrast the Liberals have vowed to fully engage in the democratic process. I cannot begin to guess how long this will take, but it is a safe bet that it will take at least as long and probably longer than it took the Conservatives to advance Bill C-24 through the process. Thus, for example, if Bill C-6 was fast-tracked to a second reading as quickly as Bill C-24 was, it would only reach the Second Reading stage in mid-June this year, no where near enough time for the committee consultations to be done before the summer recess.

In this regard it warrants noting that a number of the provisions proposed in Bill C-6 are merely fixes (see proposed amendments listed as the last three in the comparative view), matters which were, it is my impression, more or less intended to be done in Bill C-24 but were missed . . . except they probably were only overlooked in the drafting stage, not during the actual pending before Parliament stages. In order to get the legislation through as quickly as Harper could, however, Harper shut down consideration of any and all amendments . . . which meant even the Conservatives could not propose amendments to make any such fixes. For example, the prohibition affecting only post June 11, 2015 applicants was most likely a oversight in the relevant transitional provision in Bill C-24. But to get the Bill through without opening the door to procedural processes addressing any proposed amendments, which would have opened the door to dealing with proposed amendments by the opposition or even individual members, even such a small fix could not be done.

(Some fixes to Bill C-24 were done in subsequent Bills; again, this came about in large part because Harper precluded making any changes to Bill C-24, so any needed fix had to be made later, by subsequent legislation; and to some extent, there are elements in Bill C-6 continuing this process, ntoing again that this process was made necessary due to Bill C-24 being rammed through more quickly.)

I go into detail about the above because it is my strong impression that the approach the Liberals have vowed to take will inherently take much longer to get through the legislative process than it took to push Bill C-24 through. Thus, it seems likely it will be, at the soonest, late in the year before this Bill reaches the Senate, a Third Reading, and finally Royal Assent.

I cannot guess, let alone say, when the government will actually put the new 3/5 rule into effect (assuming this is what the adopted law prescribes), but it is not likely to happen until very late in the year at the soonest. It will not happen concurrent with Royal Assent but be significantly later. Just as was necessary with the implementation of the 4/6 Rule, for example, there is a lot to be done within IRCC to make the transition, new forms, new physical presence calculator (which requires new or rewritten software), new internal instructions, and so on. The nearly one year delay between date of Royal Assent and the implementation of the 4/6 Rule might be the practical range for such transitions. Thus, while the change to a 3/5 rule might possibly take effect before the end of this year, it appears more likely it will be well into 2017 before it actually applies (assuming it does happen).

I can remember, in this forum, the extensive speculation, much of it wildly off, about when the 4/6 Rule would take effect. The situation is a bit different this time, there is no looming deadline which will abruptly cut off prospective applicants like the implementation of the 4/6 Rule did. In any event, even though the speculation should not be so animated with anxiety this time, the nature of the beast in forums like this will undoubtedly fuel a good deal of speculation right up to when a definite date is actually known.



As for a flood of new applications if and when the 3/5 Rule takes effect:

Politren said:
Canada received 333,860 citizenship applications in 2013

When this rule become effective you can expect similar number from all the affected people post June last year.
I cannot confirm the reported number, but I was personally among the so-called flood of applicants in 2013. I took the oath barely eight months later. For the person sitting next to me his processing time was only six months and he had moved from one province to another while the application was in process.

The reported timelines (both those reported by CIC and anecdotal reports in this and other forums) have always been, at best, rife with mixed signals and distorted extrapolations (just the timeline based on 80 percent is itself a distortion compared to what should be expected for the majority). How long it has taken for many is not all that indicative of how long it took for most. This is so in reference to both routine and non-routine processing. Applicants during one span of time were, however, overwhelmingly affected by the dramatic and disastrous impact OB 407 had on processing times, which happened on the heels of increased scrutiny for fraud and the shift in policy toward more extensively discouraging shortfall applications. Thus, yes, those who applied in 2010 through 2012 literally got hammered by processing delays. A disturbing and unfortunate number of these applicants are still in process. In contrast, my application arrived at Sydney in July 2013 and in just a few days I will be celebrating the second anniversary of my becoming a citizen.

Processing times will probably always be subject to volatile swings and considerable variability, with some percentage of applicants bogged down in excessive delay.

In the meantime, the Liberal campaign promise and mandate letter command to improve service including reducing timelines is not so much about proposing new law or changing the law, not about legislative measures, but more or less part of the executive functioning role. The main optic will simply be the outcome, how things actually go. Not easy to see this in snapshots, so it will be a good while, perhaps a very long while, before it becomes apparent how well the Liberals are keeping this campaign promise.

They'd be hard pressed to make things as bad as the Conservative had by that 2010 through 2012 period. (Ironically, well into Harper's third term as PM, the Conservatives continued to blame the Liberals for the still growing backlogs in both immigration and citizenship.)



There is a lot to interpret.

For example, while I trust the overview and comparative view published by IRCC, regarding the extension of prohibitions to include conditional sentences, I am nonetheless unclear about what this actually means.

"Proposed Amendments: Time spent under a conditional sentence order cannot be counted towards meeting the physical presence requirements; and those serving a conditional sentence order are prohibited from being granted citizenship or taking the oath of citizenship"
(from comparative view chart (link))

I see no explicit reference to "conditional sentences" in Bill C-6, for example, and obviously understanding the change must require understanding certain aspects of criminal procedure law. The question for many current and prospective applicants is just who will be affected by this change. Someone said only those who are convicted of an offence, and thus it will not affect those given a conditional discharge. Perhaps this is correct. I cannot confirm that based on comparing the text of the current version of sections 21 and 22(1) with the proposed amended versions. In fact, I have as yet to unravel the differences except that in regards to confinement versus serving a term of imprisonment . . . and perhaps this is precisely the difference, that whereas the Bill C-24 version referred to those confined in a facility for incarceration, the Bill C-6 version refers to those serving a term of imprisonment, and perhaps the latter embraces the forms of conditional sentencing the change is intended to encompass within the prohibitions. But I am far from sure of this. And I am quite sure there are many, many applicants and prospective applicants who have had minor brushes with the law and who are concerned about what this means, for sure, relative to having been subject to a conditional term of this or that sort in the disposition of their case, including conditional discharges.
 

Diplomatru

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dpenabill,

An observation, if I may. I praise your efforts for going the extra mile with your analysis, but in terms of C-6 legislative timeline we should pay extra attention to official sources of information. As such the Bill's second reading will take place on March 9 when the MPs return to the Commons from their ridings. This is not an ombibus Bill like SCCA, it's just three pages of plain text with no room for long debates. Moreover, the recent 100 days ad campaign shows that Trudeau likes to boast LPC fast achievements since election. Look at C-4, it's also aimed at repealing two absurd laws. This was tabled in January and today it was debated at second reading stage already. This being said, the current data suggest that C-6 should become law in the coming months.
 

links18

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Sounds like it might be possible to qualify for Canadian citizenship without ever being resident is Canada at all under various definitions of the concept.

There is mo mention of revising the rather unfair rules regarding how an applicant can appeal a refusal, which Dpenabill had identified as one of the really significant aspects of Bill C-24.
 

heeradeepak

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canvis2006 said:
my wife will be eligible earlier if this 3/5 becomes law, meaning we can apply right away then.
otherwise we were set to apply next feb.

One thing which sucks is the PR Card renewal time, its like 169 days!!
It sucks for anyone to have to renew pr card cuz it takes forever, its like 6-7 months almost. It should not take more than 1-2 months at most.

So this 3/5 will ensure people can apply/obtain citizenship without having to renew pr cards (for those that live here and meet the residency criteria).

Hope CIC can add more staff to process applications timely in ALL categories. Increase the fee is needed, but hire more staff and process quickly.
It would certainly help if they would make all forms as barcoded to make it easier/faster for data entry so its processed quicker.
CIC should improve in PR renewal time also.
 

RajGill

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Hello Everyone -

I am sure everyone out their is waiting for Bill C-6 to be in effect soon.

So to understand clause of physical presence of 3yr in last 5 years with maximum credit of 1 year from previous Non-PR stay. Does this mean, that you need to stay 2yrs on PR status and add 365 days credit to be eligible for citizenship application. If that's true, I am short of 237 days and would be eligible for my application in 2016 and I received my PR in 2014. If I submit my application in 2016, will they go back till 2011?

Your feedback on clearing this would be appreciated.

Regards,
Rajdeep
 

Politren

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RajGill said:
Hello Everyone -

I am sure everyone out their is waiting for Bill C-6 to be in effect soon.

So to understand clause of physical presence of 3yr in last 5 years with maximum credit of 1 year from previous Non-PR stay. Does this mean, that you need to stay 2yrs on PR status and add 365 days credit to be eligible for citizenship application. If that's true, I am short of 237 days and would be eligible for my application in 2016 and I received my PR in 2014. If I submit my application in 2016, will they go back till 2011?

Your feedback on clearing this would be appreciated.

Regards,
Rajdeep
The best answer as of when exactly you will be eligible to apply will come from the online calculator when this new proposed law become effective.