FSW WORLDWIDE

[abhiram.kumar]

You seem to miss the entire point of what I wrote and what everyone else wrote. We are not saying anyone is entitled to anything. But saying that Canadian govt never used this as a carrot to entice students, saying that they never really wanted these many int'l students has failed the test of time. The fact that an immigration minister is on record saying that PGWP is being abused or whatever is complete bs - that's something they already knew was going to happen. They just change the narrative after every 6 months and we go "oh look, even Marc Miller is saying that PGWPs are bad" - well, we should remember, this is the same dude who said I won't cut down on immigration and it is necessary not too long ago.

Almost everyone is calling IRCC's bs out now:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1789097091588866325

The crisis, problems, etc whatever we see right now is purely because of IRCC's own failures:
1. Temporary workers had no idea that millions of others were also coming here as these numbers weren't published anywhere. Look at the interest levels dying right now just to see how much impact knowing those numbers actually made.
2. Canadians were kept in dark by never being made aware of the extremely sharp population increase and they had no say in it.

Let's focus on who is wrong instead of beating the weak.

Are you implying that by offering post study work visas, countries are guaranteeing and implying immigrant status to each and every student who gets in? Firstly, a post study work visa can be utilized by the student to gain some valuable work experience and then utilize that experience when they go back to their countries. Its purpose is not solely for immigration. Secondly, countries like the US offer OPT visas to international students enrolled in STEM programs. Is the US also implying that students who apply for these visas, are also guaranteed green cards or H1B visas? Just because countries like the US, Canada, UK, Australia etc. offer post study visas as options to students, it does not mean that there are any broader implications about their immigration status in the country.

 

[iSaidGoodDay]

Are you implying that by offering post study work visas, countries are guaranteeing and implying immigrant status to each and every student who gets in? Firstly, a post study work visa can be utilized by the student to gain some valuable work experience and then utilize that experience when they go back to their countries. Its purpose is not solely for immigration. Secondly, countries like the US offer OPT visas to international students enrolled in STEM programs. Is the US also implying that students who apply for these visas, are also guaranteed green cards or H1B visas? Just because countries like the US, Canada, UK, Australia etc. offer post study visas as options to students, it does not mean that there are any broader implications about their immigration status in the country.

My text clearly says(marked in bold), no one is entitled to anything. But this honeypot scam by IRCC needs to be called out, that was the whole point.

 

[abhiram.kumar]

My text clearly says(marked in bold), no one is entitled to anything. But this honeypot scam by IRCC needs to be called out, that was the whole point.

The so called “honeypot” scam of PGWP was introduced in 2012 by the conservative government. The surge in bogus students and criminals using the student visas to gain entry into Canada is a recent phenomenon. It’s primarily because greedy public colleges in Ontario and BC used private colleges to sell their curriculum through public private partnerships. This coupled with the fact that agents, both in country and abroad, were promoting these colleges as backdoor entry points into Canada and gain working rights. Guess what? You offer backdoor entry points into your country, bad actors and desperate fools will take it. Barring students who go to Canadian universities and specific public colleges, the entire student visa industry is riddled with fraud and human trafficking. This issue is not specific to Canada. The US, Australia and the UK, have all faced similar issues. In the US, bogus colleges were set up to smuggle telugu “students” into the country. However, the border authorities in the US shut them down. Canada is just beginning to crack down on them.

 

[GandiBaat]

What you talk about did not even exist in the pre - pandemic years.

SP + PGP + CEC pathway has existed for quite sometime.

PNP (Provincial Graduate Stream) has existed in a number of provinces for quite sometime. In BC, it comes in two flavours. PNP International Graduate Stream which requires a job offer in BC and BC PNP Post International Graduate Stream which does not require a job offer but one needs to have a post grad degree from BC based school.

These are as mainstream and front door as it gets and have existed for fairly long time.

 

[GandiBaat]

However, even in the pre pandemic days, a students visa was never a guarantee to permanent residency.

There are no guarentee in immigration what so ever. But there are pathways. PNP based on study completed and CEC based on post study canadian experience are very much a pathway and have always been.

As far as guarantee goes, even after having a PR and a PR card, Canada can deny you entry into the country if they want. Its that simple. Only citizens have anything like a right to enter and live in Canada. All others only have a privilege which can always be denied or withdrawn. Your only safety net is the judicial system which can decide if Canadian agents acted fairly or not.

 

[GandiBaat]

But it doesn't have to be, law states (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-2002-227/section-183.html):
"(b.1) the day on which the second of their permits becomes invalid, in the case of a temporary resident who has been issued a work permit and a study permit;"

So if a student on a study permit transition to a work permit, the second permit will be the work permit, and that supersedes the study permit's LEAVE BY date.

Thats just one clause of the regulation. There is more.

• Authorized period ends
  (4) The period authorized for a temporary resident’s stay ends on the earliest of
  • (a) the day on which the temporary resident leaves Canada without obtaining prior authorization to re-enter Canada;
  • (b) the day on which their permit becomes invalid, in the case of a temporary resident who has been issued either a work permit or a study permit;
  • (b.1) the day on which the second of their permits becomes invalid, in the case of a temporary resident who has been issued a work permit and a study permit;
  • (c) the day on which any temporary resident permit issued to the temporary resident is no longer valid under section 63;
  • (c.1) in the case of a person who is required by section 10.01 of the Act to provide their biometric information, the day on which the period of 10 years following the latest day on which the person provided their biometric information under section 10.01 of the Act ends; or
  • (d) the day on which the period authorized under subsection (2) ends, if paragraphs (a) to (c) do not apply.

In different situation, end of authorized period can vary. For instance, someone on study permit who applied for work permit or even a visitor record can still stay in Canada on maintained status. So yes, the condition on study permit is a lie and misleading one. What IRPR and IRPA require you to do is to comply with them and not "LEAVE CANADA BY XYZ" date unlike what permit says. Thats the lie.

No it doesn't because Canada doesn't know that you want to transition to another status, in fact Canada assumes that you don't want to transition to another status by indicating a LEAVE BY date. Imagine if a study permit is given to an international student, but the permit also says "can remain in Canada indefinitely" or "leave when desired". Now that's absurd, and again if you transition to another status the former's LEAVE BY date gets invalidated.

The proper way is to word it like "The authorization to stay and study/work on this permit alone ends on XYZ date". Anything else is a misrepresentation. It can be further strengthened by addition of a condition like "You will leave Canada if you do not have an authorization to stay in Canada". Which is kind of redundant but then its better than how they misrepresent it presently. When you say "LEAVE BY XYZ DATE" the assumption is that one will not seek a further status.

If you argue that "Canada dos not know that you want to transition to another status" then it is illogical to argue that "Canada KNOWS that you DO NOT want to transition to another status". By saying "LEAVE BY XYZ" it is assuming that you will not seek another status, hence "LEAVE" because you are not having further authorization to stay.

The reality is, only authorization from that permit alone ends on that day. Wether one needs to leave by that date depends upon if they have authorization from elsewhere (such as maintained status etc).

Same point's as previous, law says the second permit, in which case the work permit, overrides the original LEAVE BY date. You cannot violate a condition you're no longer a subject of.

As I said before, there a different clauses which make sense in different situations. One can have another permit, one can have a maintained status too or there may be a temporary public policy that grants you an authorization to stay (this has happened during pandemic).

I'm not sure where you're getting that but looking at the website: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/work-canada/permit/temporary/eligibility.html


That said if I'm a student trying to research if I can apply for a work permit inside Canada, I think this answers the question quite clearly. And if I'm not sure despite that information or maybe there's a case specific to me, then I should do the common sense thing and go talk to an reputable immigration lawyer.

I am not sure if this is related to this discussion. There can be situations in which a person can or can not apply for a new status. That does not absolves IRCC of lying on its authorization letter (the permit; study or work).

If unemployment levels are high, the government should revoke the privilege of international students to work and penalize any company who hire them.

Not so fast! There are legal doctrines regarding change of regulations or laws such as "grandfathering" -- (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/grandfatherclause.asp#:~:text=A grandfather or legacy clause,often for a limited time.). This is to reach a fair compromise and avoid unfairness.

It is not possible to simply take away a privilege which was initially granted without providing a ramp off and it is often frowned upon or rejected in court of law.

That way the government can still rake in the sweet international tuition fee so as not to introduce a financial shock to the education system that relies quite heavily on these international student fees so much, while making sure these students cannot participate in the labor market at all.

Very likely, it will get challenged in court of law as an unfair policy. They can change policy that any study permit issued after XYZ date will NOT have a work authorization but revoking the existing privledge will lead to a legal quagmire.

But let's be real, unemployment is not the reason why the government is reducing international students, it's housing and with that sky high rental costs, it's affecting the voting Canadian population's perception of the government, a group of people which they desperately need to be on the good side of next year.

The Canadian immigration system is designed to benefit Canadians, not the incoming immigrants, whether its high-skilled labor, cheaper labor, or taking huge amount of tuition fees to keep universities going, it's all for the benefit of Canadians. If an aspiring immigrant can find a mutual benefit despite all of this then good for them, but if not ,the government shouldn't take the blame because they didn't force them to go to Canada in the first place. It's their decision; risk, reward and consequence included.

And while I don't personally approve of what they're doing to international students, like taking the huge disparities in tuition, I mean 2x or maybe 3x, is reasonable but like 4x or 5x that's insane. I also don't take the side of the students who aspire to use the study in Canada path to a PR, but didn't make a plan B if things go awry; the intention itself is fine, but not having a backup plan is their fault. It's like taking a business risk, where you want all the rewards but none of the consequences.

If anything else, the only thing that the government cannot be absolved of is the policies they enacted that negatively affected the local Canadians, for example, they let in too much that it drove rental prices sky high to the point that it affected Canadian citizens.

Thing is, for any government, to be a government and have a rule of law, they need to have a rules which follow established legal doctrines and due process. This is what separates a court from a kangaroo court and governments from mafia.

If your country does bait and switch as a legal policy (like enticing students with work authorizations and suddenly revoking working privledges), it will be termed as a mafia and not a government. If it does it as a habit, sooner than later people will wise up. There are legal and fair ways to achieve the desired policy goals -- like reducing intake and reducing or eliminating work authorization for incoming students but tactics that are foul will end up hurting Canada and will set really really bad precedent.

 

[abhiram.kumar]

SP + PGP + CEC pathway has existed for quite sometime.

PNP (Provincial Graduate Stream) has existed in a number of provinces for quite sometime. In BC, it comes in two flavours. PNP International Graduate Stream which requires a job offer in BC and BC PNP Post International Graduate Stream which does not require a job offer but one needs to have a post grad degree from BC based school.

These are as mainstream and front door as it gets and have existed for fairly long time.

That’s not what I was referring to. There was no such thing as “CEC” only draws or TR to PR pathways. These were temporary measures introduced by the liberal government during the pandemic. These measures gave some students the impression that just studying in Canada would get you PR. At least, that’s the impression the agents would give students.

 

[Arod]

I went to Niagara Falls on the weekend. That place looked like Mumbai, horrible behaviour, bad driving, loud music.

 

[Lord_Tony]

I went to Niagara Falls on the weekend. That place looked like Mumbai, horrible behaviour, bad driving, loud music.

An SVP of Indian Origin from my company visited Toronto from Boston. He said he was sick when at the airport and most public places in Canada some random person walks and talks to him or other brown-skinned folks in Indian national language which due to some ethnic reason/heritage he or his family don't speak. He says the Indians in Toronto are more Indianized or much less Westernized compared to ones in Today's India.

 

[abhiram.kumar]

An SVP of Indian Origin from my company visited Toronto from Boston. He said he was sick when at the airport and most public places in Canada some random person walks and talks to him or other brown-skinned folks in Indian national language which due to some ethnic reason/heritage he or his family don't speak. He says the Indians in Toronto are more Indianized or much less Westernized compared to ones in Today's India.

This happens in India as well. North Indians assume that everyone in India speaks Hindi. In reality, India is an extremely diverse country where there are over 300 languages but specific groups in the north of India, specifically nationalists, expect people from the South to hate themselves and their own culture in order to adopt Hindi as their language. We are one of the most hypocritical people out there. If you see anyone from the Indian community targeting Western nations and white people for racism, just laugh and treat them as fools. There is a lot of hate within India itself. North Indians discriminating against South Indians and so forth. If you were to point this hypocrisy out, you will be hounded by the nationalists and called all sorts of names.

 

[andrews17]

I went to Niagara Falls on the weekend. That place looked like Mumbai, horrible behaviour, bad driving, loud music.

Almost like going to any Walmart.

 

[GandiBaat]

This happens in India as well. North Indians assume that everyone in India speaks Hindi. In reality, India is an extremely diverse country where there are over 300 languages but specific groups in the north of India, specifically nationalists, expect people from the South to hate themselves and their own culture in order to adopt Hindi as their language. We are one of the most hypocritical people out there.

Bullshit.
Basic rule in India is like everywhere else. If you are paying money, the guy getting money will figure-out a way to talk to you and vice versa.

If you see anyone from the Indian community targeting Western nations and white people for racism, just laugh and treat them as fools. There is a lot of hate within India itself. North Indians discriminating against South Indians and so forth. If you were to point this hypocrisy out, you will be hounded by the nationalists and called all sorts of names.

You know, your own minor son/daughter or minor grand son/daughter may face exactly this situation. I sincerely hope people help him/her and not laugh at him/her and not treat him/her as fool.

 

[iSaidGoodDay]

This happens in India as well. North Indians assume that everyone in India speaks Hindi. In reality, India is an extremely diverse country where there are over 300 languages but specific groups in the north of India, specifically nationalists, expect people from the South to hate themselves and their own culture in order to adopt Hindi as their language. We are one of the most hypocritical people out there. If you see anyone from the Indian community targeting Western nations and white people for racism, just laugh and treat them as fools. There is a lot of hate within India itself. North Indians discriminating against South Indians and so forth. If you were to point this hypocrisy out, you will be hounded by the nationalists and called all sorts of names.

Don't strip humanity away from the conversation by blanket generalizations. I see you write the last line again and again - even when don't have to. Except for a comment or two you rarely get name-called. And, you need to stop self-victimizing yourself, it isn't mature.

A lot of folks talk to me in Punjabi in Canada, not even Hindi - that's not hypocrisy or discrimination. Indians, especially Hindi speaking ones aren't even the majority in Canada yet. A lot more people speak Punjabi or Gujarati here.

This is such a poor statement from you:
>If you see anyone from the Indian community targeting Western nations and white people for racism, just laugh and treat them as fools.

Imagine moving abroad for a better life and encountering racism. As per you, this person shouldn't talk about racism because people back home were racists? Not a good logic! You can't be that tone deaf to extremely serious issue that someone faced.

>There is a lot of hate within India itself.

There's a lot of hate in the world, and you too are wasting your life hating people. You are hating Indians for no good reason. A lot of these poor comments are talking about only seeing Indians in places like Walmart or Niagara - someone existing is not a problem. Rude behavior and other complaints are valid points - we all agree on them. But those problems are there with nearly every immigrant group these days - why only target Indians?

Let's callout the right thing without sounding immature.

 

[GandiBaat]

An SVP of Indian Origin from my company visited Toronto from Boston. He said he was sick when at the airport and most public places in Canada some random person walks and talks to him or other brown-skinned folks in Indian national language which due to some ethnic reason/heritage he or his family don't speak. He says the Indians in Toronto are more Indianized or much less Westernized compared to ones in Today's India.

Well, I have seen Chinese in Richmond talk in Cantonese as first reflex. I have seen Zorastrians of North Van talk in Persian as the first reflex, so much so that my wife had a lot of trouble getting sales bonus as a retail worker. Your friend i think unaware of reality of Canada. Its a patch work of culture than a melting pot. This is a common mistake people who live in America make. They think Canada should be similar to America. It is not.

Anyhow, a simple, "Hey, I cannt understand what you are saying" with a smile might be enough.

 

[iSaidGoodDay]

An SVP of Indian Origin from my company visited Toronto from Boston. He said he was sick when at the airport and most public places in Canada some random person walks and talks to him or other brown-skinned folks in Indian national language which due to some ethnic reason/heritage he or his family don't speak. He says the Indians in Toronto are more Indianized or much less Westernized compared to ones in Today's India.

Big reason for that is that Canada(unlike the US) allows individuals build their entire family here. So, large family structures, practices, etc (I'm talking about the good parts of it) flourished here in Canada. E.g. If you are sick, you got a mom/dad/mother-in-law/father-in-law/uncle/etc to look after. In a typical western family, you'd take a medicine and your mom living 15kms away won't even show up.

Most coworkers that I had when I was in the US from India/Pakistan/Philippines/etc had no family support there. We had to live on top of processed foods, more individualistic lifestyle, etc - but I saw the same people live a more family centered life now in Canada. This is a good thing by all means.

About the language thing - given the number and concentration of Indians here - I think that's only logical to happen. I'm not ashamed of talking in my language and especially if it is easy to communicate in it. Ukrainians in Canada do the same and I see no one complain as much.

About westernization - there are some real bad things about 100% westernization:
1. processed food
2. less family focused life
3. no social constraints and currencies

The idea that good things back home are lame isn't as true. I know a lot of people judge someone for not being progressive enough for even following the right thing, but hey, I'm not feeding myself cancer inducing production line food just to look cool. Pseudo standards and shallow progressiveness are bad in the long run.

So many good things in Canadian culture to absorb, but a lot of cautionary tales here as well