+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Effective date of Bill C24

MasterGeek

Hero Member
Jul 30, 2012
273
5
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo/Ottawa
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
11-04-2012
AOR Received.
24-05-2012
Med's Request
24-05-2012
Med's Done....
30-05-2012
Passport Req..
12-07-2013
LANDED..........
August 2013
I have an idea: Using the Access to Information Act, anyone could request from CIC to send internal information and emails related to the preparation of bill C-24 implementation ;)
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
MasterGeek said:
I have an idea: Using the Access to Information Act, anyone could request from CIC to send internal information and emails related to the preparation of bill C-24 implementation ;)
This may offer some insight. And for those affected, those on the cusp in 2015, perhaps worth the effort.

But, frankly, so much is likely to be redacted or excluded it will be difficult to draw conclusions beyond the obvious: they are working on it, with little or no indication as to when the Governor in Council (in practice meaning when Harper) will order the amendments to come into force.

Moreover, this government tends to approach such transitions intensely top-down, the key decisions and actions taken within a very small, close-knit circle, often right within the PMO (and not in the respective Minister's department), so it is likely there will be minimal CIC chatter, so to say, about what is being done . . . that is, right up to the time the changes in forms, guidelines, instructions, and so on, are ready to rollout, which is likely to not happen until there is very little time left before the order is made for the remaining amendments to come into force.

In particular, it will be difficult to time the ATI request to capture relevant chatter in time to get much advance notice of the impending implementation of the amendments. Would not surprise me that useful information will not become available, through the ATI process, until less than four or five weeks before things really happen, and that is about how long it takes to get the ATI report in the most prompt instances . . . in other words, the revealing ATI report is not likely to get into a person's inbox (or mail box) until about the time the information becomes public anyway.

The Access to Information system in Canada is broken. The Harper government has done a lot to break it . . . or at least undermine its usefulness for journalists or the public. The trend toward less and less transparency is not just a Harper, Canadian phenomena however, but appears to be widespread across western so-called democracies.

I do not mean to discourage people from pursuing access to information requests. By all means, even the poor service and restricted access currently available is well worth using and pursuing to the extent one can.

But I would be shocked if an Access to Information request resulted in the disclosure of the date that the Governor in Council will order the amendments to come into force, even though I have little doubt that the date is already determined.


By the Way: For those who wonder how it is possible that the PMO (Prime Minister's Office) could do what is necessary to make such a huge transition without involving CIC personnel, watch them. And be wary about the results. Yes, it is a recipe for disaster. Any time those who do the real work are excluded from the process of revising how to do the work, things tend to go badly. But that is this government's modus operandi. There are, for example, credible suggestions that the whole OB 407 process was engineered by a single individual within the PMO, and simply delivered to CIC to implement (then Minister Kenney apparently having some input, but high-level policy wise, not in terms of practices and procedures). Result: disaster. Citizenship application processing was virtually broken for nearly a year. Tens of thousands of PRs on the path to citizenship were victimized, suffering inordinate delays, and overly intrusive RQ for little or no substantive cause. Thousands swept into the mire by the rollout of OB 407 are still in limbo, still "in process," while tens of thousands (like me) who applied later have sailed through the process in seven or eight months and taken the oath already.

There were, undoubtedly, scores of CIC workers who could have helped develop a far better plan than the intial OB 407 rollout, but Harper and company believe in keeping what's coming, and when, a secret. They have their reasons, their rationalizations. But, bureaucratic efficiency suffers, and often suffers badly.

The saving grace is that once these amendments come into force, the flow of new citizenship applications should decline dramatically, to a small percentage of the number that generally flow into Sydney most months. This is because there will be a full year, plus, group of PRs who will suddenly have to wait another full year to apply. (If, for example, the coming into force date is July 1st 2015, all PRs who landed between early 2012 and the summer of 2013, who would have become eligible to apply between July 1st 2015 (assuming many of those landing in early 2012 have some travel abroad) and the summer of 2016 under the current residency requirement, will all of a sudden have to wait another full year, until after July 1st 2016 at the very soonest, before they are eligible.) Thus, during this transition CIC should have a relatively small number of applications to process for the first year. Hopefully this will be enough of an offset to overcome the inevitable bureaucratic inefficiencies which will beseige the new process due to its intensely top-down engineering.

On the other hand, between now and next summer, a large number of PRs who have not been in a rush or have been procrastinating (like I did), are likely to recognize the urgency of getting their application made before the amendments take effect, and so there is likely to be at least somewhat of a surge in new applications between now and the date the amendments come into force. Many PRs will recognize if they snooze they lose, lose up to a full year, and will be getting their applications in sooner than they ordinarily would have. In conjunction with this surge, there is the possibility that there will be a large number of applicants applying with a very small margin over the 1095 day threshold, PRs rushing to get the app in before the changeover. This will put pressure on CIC's resources since many of these applications will require more scrutiny.

In particular: this is now no time to procrastinate. It is still best to have a decent margin (my opinion), but the further into next year we go, the higher the odds that new applications are going to be caught in a messy transition period.

Those on the cusp have little choice, unless they are willing to wait the extra year or so, and will need to make their application as soon as they reasonably can (hopefully with at least some margin), but of course not before they meet the requirements including, especially, the actual physical presence for 1095 days requirement.

And for some others, they can hope the window remains open into July or August, but they probably should not plan on it, or even make significant life choices based on it. (For example, for someone who will be eligible to apply in August if the amendments do not take effect before then, and so long as they do not take a planned holiday to see parents or such, probably better to plan on having to apply after the amendments take effect and take that holiday.)
 

CanadianCountry

Hero Member
Jan 26, 2011
567
23
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
02-02-2010
Doc's Request.
16-03-2010
AOR Received.
24-07-2010
File Transfer...
24-03-2010
Med's Request
Yes
Med's Done....
Yes
Passport Req..
Yes
VISA ISSUED...
Yes
LANDED..........
Yes
It seems people are even willing to be 'third-class' citizens, it doesn't matter since all they want is their certificate to say 'citizen', first class/second class who cares.

jazibkg said:
Everyone okay living in Canada as second-class citizens then?
 

MUFC

Champion Member
Jul 14, 2014
1,223
214
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
dpenabill said:
The Access to Information system in Canada is broken...


By the Way: For those who wonder how it is possible that the PMO (Prime Minister's Office) could do what is necessary to make such a huge transition without involving CIC personnel, watch them...
Very well said, and I support your statement 100%.

There is no way for the potential future applicant to find out when the cut off date will be, because the information is not there. And they will make sure that this information will be kept like a secret and out of the public reach.

Everything was planned to be like this for the election year. They will use the destiny of hundreds of thousands potential applicants for the benefit of their cruel political game.

From my efforts to find out some kind of a clue about the cut off date, all I can say is that it will be in close relation with the federal elections.

And by the way I don't believe that the processing time will drop under a year for the majority of the applicants... it sounds like an empty election promise.
 

jazibkg

Hero Member
Apr 4, 2014
378
35
CanadianCountry said:
It seems people are even willing to be 'third-class' citizens, it doesn't matter since all they want is their certificate to say 'citizen', first class/second class who cares.
Well, your citizenship can be taken away from you now. This is something we all should be concerned about. I didn't come to Canada for just this.

So for example, somebody gets framed for blasphemy law in Pakistan, they end up losing their Canadian citizenship?
 

screech339

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2013
7,887
552
Category........
Visa Office......
Vegreville
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
14-08-2012
AOR Received.
20-11-2012
Med's Done....
18-07-2012
Interview........
17-06-2013
LANDED..........
17-06-2013
jazibkg said:
Well, your citizenship can be taken away from you now. This is something we all should be concerned about. I didn't come to Canada for just this.

So for example, somebody gets framed for blasphemy law in Pakistan, they end up losing their Canadian citizenship?
(2) The Minister may revoke a person's citizenship if the person, before or after the coming into force of this subsection and while the person was a citizen,

(a) was convicted under section 47 of the Criminal Code of treason and sentenced to imprisonment for life or was convicted of high treason under that section;

(b) was convicted of a terrorism offence as defined in section 2 of the Criminal Code — or an offence outside Canada that, if committed in Canada, would constitute a terrorism offence as defined in that section — and sentenced to at least five years of imprisonment;

(c) was convicted of an offence under any of sections 73 to 76 of the National Defence Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life because the person acted traitorously;

(d) was convicted of an offence under section 78 of the National Defence Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life;

(e) was convicted of an offence under section 130 of the National Defence Act in respect of an act or omission that is punishable under section 47 of the Criminal Code and sentenced to imprisonment for life;

(f) was convicted under the National Defence Act of a terrorism offence as defined in subsection 2(1) of that Act and sentenced to at least five years of imprisonment;

(g) was convicted of an offence described in section 16 or 17 of the Security of Information Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life; or

(h) was convicted of an offence under section 130 of the National Defence Act in respect of an act or omission that is punishable under section 16 or 17 of the Security of Information Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life.

So where does blasphemy fall under here? I don't see yourself losing your citizenship for blasphemy.

Screech339
 

CanadianCountry

Hero Member
Jan 26, 2011
567
23
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
02-02-2010
Doc's Request.
16-03-2010
AOR Received.
24-07-2010
File Transfer...
24-03-2010
Med's Request
Yes
Med's Done....
Yes
Passport Req..
Yes
VISA ISSUED...
Yes
LANDED..........
Yes
One thing I don't get, maybe I can get some answer here.

Talking of the points mentioned, let's say a hypothetical person is convicted of treason or, terrorism, or, any anti-national activity. What seems more prudent, to punish the traitor here, or, to set the person free and letting him/her live/enjoy their anti-national lifestyle somewhere else and letting them continue with their activities, which the law holds par to one of the worst things a person can do.

Most I have heard around the world, for traitors usually if convicted a capital punishment or something of that magnitude is served.

In my opinion, what this law does is to take out trash from own yard and dirties other persons yard.

screech339 said:
(2) The Minister may revoke a person's citizenship if the person, before or after the coming into force of this subsection and while the person was a citizen,

(a) was convicted under section 47 of the Criminal Code of treason and sentenced to imprisonment for life or was convicted of high treason under that section;

(b) was convicted of a terrorism offence as defined in section 2 of the Criminal Code — or an offence outside Canada that, if committed in Canada, would constitute a terrorism offence as defined in that section — and sentenced to at least five years of imprisonment;

(c) was convicted of an offence under any of sections 73 to 76 of the National Defence Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life because the person acted traitorously;

(d) was convicted of an offence under section 78 of the National Defence Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life;

(e) was convicted of an offence under section 130 of the National Defence Act in respect of an act or omission that is punishable under section 47 of the Criminal Code and sentenced to imprisonment for life;

(f) was convicted under the National Defence Act of a terrorism offence as defined in subsection 2(1) of that Act and sentenced to at least five years of imprisonment;

(g) was convicted of an offence described in section 16 or 17 of the Security of Information Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life; or

(h) was convicted of an offence under section 130 of the National Defence Act in respect of an act or omission that is punishable under section 16 or 17 of the Security of Information Act and sentenced to imprisonment for life.

So where does blasphemy fall under here? I don't see yourself losing your citizenship for blasphemy.

Screech339
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,167
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
CanadianCountry said:
One thing I don't get, maybe I can get some answer here.

Talking of the points mentioned, let's say a hypothetical person is convicted of treason or, terrorism, or, any anti-national activity. What seems more prudent, to punish the traitor here, or, to set the person free and letting him/her live/enjoy their anti-national lifestyle somewhere else and letting them continue with their activities, which the law holds par to one of the worst things a person can do.

Most I have heard around the world, for traitors usually if convicted a capital punishment or something of that magnitude is served.

In my opinion, what this law does is to take out trash from own yard and dirties other persons yard.
Nobody said anything about letting them go free after them being stripped of their dual citizenship.. Life imprisonment can still be enforced, and then deport them.
 

CanadianCountry

Hero Member
Jan 26, 2011
567
23
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
02-02-2010
Doc's Request.
16-03-2010
AOR Received.
24-07-2010
File Transfer...
24-03-2010
Med's Request
Yes
Med's Done....
Yes
Passport Req..
Yes
VISA ISSUED...
Yes
LANDED..........
Yes
How do you think the govt will enforce life imprisonment on a non-Canadian (a person who has nothing to do with Canada), and is living in some far-off country having no intention to come back? How do you think they will bring them here after the stripping citizenship, extradition?

zardoz said:
Nobody said anything about letting them go free after them being stripped of their dual citizenship.. Life imprisonment can still be enforced, and then deport them.
 

CanadianCountry

Hero Member
Jan 26, 2011
567
23
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
02-02-2010
Doc's Request.
16-03-2010
AOR Received.
24-07-2010
File Transfer...
24-03-2010
Med's Request
Yes
Med's Done....
Yes
Passport Req..
Yes
VISA ISSUED...
Yes
LANDED..........
Yes
Here is list of countries with which Canada has extradition treaties:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/eng/1356023800347/1356023991852

Canada has almost no extradition treaties with any of the war-torn/radical countries.

zardoz said:
Nobody said anything about letting them go free after them being stripped of their dual citizenship.. Life imprisonment can still be enforced, and then deport them.
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,167
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
CanadianCountry said:
How do you think the govt will enforce life imprisonment on a non-Canadian (a person who has nothing to do with Canada), and is living in some far-off country having no intention to come back? How do you think they will bring them here after the stripping citizenship, extradition?
All those clauses, with the possible exception of b) are convictions in Canada.. One assumes that the defendant is there also.
 

CanadianCountry

Hero Member
Jan 26, 2011
567
23
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
02-02-2010
Doc's Request.
16-03-2010
AOR Received.
24-07-2010
File Transfer...
24-03-2010
Med's Request
Yes
Med's Done....
Yes
Passport Req..
Yes
VISA ISSUED...
Yes
LANDED..........
Yes
Either you are not getting the point I'm making, or I am lost by your last reply.

zardoz said:
All those clauses, with the possible exception of b) are convictions in Canada.. One assumes that the defendant is there also.
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,298
2,167
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
CanadianCountry said:
Either you are not getting the point I'm making, or I am lost by your last reply.
Why would you assume that the person being stripped of citizenship, after being convicted, in Canada, under Canadian law, isn't themselves in Canada and therefore not requiring of extradition? Does Canada make a habit of conviction when the defendant is not there to answer to the charges?
 

CanadianCountry

Hero Member
Jan 26, 2011
567
23
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
02-02-2010
Doc's Request.
16-03-2010
AOR Received.
24-07-2010
File Transfer...
24-03-2010
Med's Request
Yes
Med's Done....
Yes
Passport Req..
Yes
VISA ISSUED...
Yes
LANDED..........
Yes
Why would a person who is sure to face such charges take return flight to Canada. Why would a radicalized person come back to face anything. Hence to charge and put such person in prison (as you said ) will require extradition.

zardoz said:
Why would you assume that the person being stripped of citizenship, after being convicted, in Canada, under Canadian law, isn't themselves in Canada and therefore not requiring of extradition? Does Canada make a habit of conviction when the defendant is not there to answer to the charges?