Brutal Winter and a Jobless Immigrant family

[kathyberone]

I’m sorry that deerestlovelybear had such a bad experience and now is in a bad situation where the answers are not that straight forward.

This being said, I believe all of us can benefit from his/her experience by focusing on the 4 things a prospective immigrant have to know:

1. Canada is not a paradise. No matter what you’ve heard, it’s not.

2. Landing with your family without a job offer is not a good plan. Many successful immigrants, even those without kids, had the wife or husband (usually the principal applicant) land first and start looking for jobs while the other stayed back home working on whatever they were working back there. When the wife/husband landed a job, then the other half would come to Canada to join her/him.

3. Required settlement funds are not always enough. The government has this table where you can tell how much money you need to land without a job. Unfortunately, those amounts are not enough to see one person through the hardships of finding a job. I know a person who came to Canada while her husband stayed back home with their kid, and it took her 6 months to find a good job. She travelled all over, live in really cheap shared accommodations, went above and beyond. In 6 months their more than $30,000.00 was almost fully gone, but luckily, since he was working back home, they did a smooth transitions to working immigrants! If you wife/husband back home doesn’t work, be prepared to have even more than the required amount.

4. The government is betting on you based on statistical data and years of bringing immigrants to this country. They know that even if everything goes wrong, since you’re educated, you’ll want your children to also be educated and, maybe, they will have betters chances than you did. So, there’s a possibility that you will find it extremely hard to find a skilled job and, maybe, never work on your field again. Are you prepared for this to happen?

 

[fkl]

As an example, the average house prices in Vancouver are pretty much the same compared to London; but Vancouver's median income is actually $20-25k than London is (I know that is not a very good comparison seeing how London is a world financial hub and Vancouver isn't so, but still those are the statistical facts). However, Toronto fares better in this comparison with lower median house prices, but still median income less $10-15k from London.

If you haven't lived in both UK and Canada, you wouldn't know; and even then where you live in these very countries would define the difference of your experience. You can live comfortably in the UK as well.

I still have no clue how you speak about 'saving money' in Canada. I have previously worked in the UK and find Canada to be a pathetically underpaid, whilst only a few jobs that actually pay what its worth (read; IT/software development). Healthcare system is slow in both countries with long waits, but Canada has excessively longer wait periods. However, the welfare state and tax credits system may be more extensive in Canada than the UK (I never qualified for any tax credits in the UK). The current low CAD$ doesn't help either. I used to meet quite a few Canadians during my time in the UK, and have met quite a few people from teh UK in Canada. It works both ways. That said, the few thousand british pounds I managed to save in my last months in the UK did last me quite a bit in Canada, but mainly due to the conversion rate ;D

At the end of everything, it is all about personal preference, and your personality type and if the city matches that! There are things I absolutely love about Canada, and things I absolutely love about the UK, or Pakistan too (and then there are things I absolutely hate about these countries too ); nowhere is the experience perfect and you always have to sacrifice a few likes and dislikes whenever you move a country and its always going to be a love-hate relationship.

The saving money term for me might be of value because my profession is indeed Software development and most of the people i know in UK - whose earning and living standards i have a good idea about and can compare with myself. This was the basis of my assessment. May be its because UK doesn't pay software that well. US undeniably pays the most to SDs all over the world. I think Canada is also better than the rest. You are spot on for health care. But i would add that other than excessively long waiting periods in Canada, the health care system does not really cover as much as it kind of claims to. I have quite long and weird experiences here including (but not limited to) competence or commitment issues from doctors. Plus if we compare it to Pakistan, there is a very unique thing. In Pakistan if you can pay or are insured, any good hospital would be very convenient for you. At least that has been my experience at all 3 major cities there.

However, in Canada i have seen doctors not actually going at length to suggest a test which indeed is required to clear a reasonable doubt about a problem. It could always be an individual situation but then i have feedback from many others and took the time to learn health care guidelines here. Because it is federally funded, there has to be a certain threshold of CERTAINTY passed for a doctor to prescribe a test, rather than doing it even when he suspects there COULD be a problem but is not certain enough.

In Pakistan a doctor would always ask you to be sure and do a test, once they know you can afford it or your insurance covers it. Here you have to convince the doctor irrespective of physical symptoms to conduct a test, which is really weird.

But yes tax credits are better here certainly.

In the end yes it is always the way you mentioned, some preferences some dislikes and an over all picture.

 

[Jaxon911]

The saving money term for me might be of value because my profession is indeed Software development and most of the people i know in UK - whose earning and living standards i have a good idea about and can compare with myself. This was the basis of my assessment. May be its because UK doesn't pay software that well. US undeniably pays the most to SDs all over the world. I think Canada is also better than the rest. You are spot on for health care. But i would add that other than excessively long waiting periods in Canada, the health care system does not really cover as much as it kind of claims to. I have quite long and weird experiences here including (but not limited to) competence or commitment issues from doctors. Plus if we compare it to Pakistan, there is a very unique thing. In Pakistan if you can pay or are insured, any good hospital would be very convenient for you. At least that has been my experience at all 3 major cities there.

However, in Canada i have seen doctors not actually going at length to suggest a test which indeed is required to clear a reasonable doubt about a problem. It could always be an individual situation but then i have feedback from many others and took the time to learn health care guidelines here. Because it is federally funded, there has to be a certain threshold of CERTAINTY passed for a doctor to prescribe a test, rather than doing it even when he suspects there COULD be a problem but is not certain enough.

In Pakistan a doctor would always ask you to be sure and do a test, once they know you can afford it or your insurance covers it. Here you have to convince the doctor irrespective of physical symptoms to conduct a test, which is really weird.

But yes tax credits are better here certainly.

In the end yes it is always the way you mentioned, some preferences some dislikes and an over all picture.

Thank you everyone for all the useful insights into life in Canada and comparison with various places!

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions.

Can someone provide brief info on tax structure. Let's assume $90k salary. How much tax would one pay? And what kind of tax credit options are available? For example, can one deduce mortgage interests from tax etc.

Thanks!

 

[fkl]

Thank you everyone for all the useful insights into life in Canada and comparison with various places!

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions.

Can someone provide brief info on tax structure. Let's assume $90k salary. How much tax would one pay? And what kind of tax credit options are available? For example, can one deduce mortgage interests from tax etc.

Thanks!

Tax structure varies by province you can easily find several website giving you the exact break down by province by inputting annual salary.

But in general with a 90k annual salary, you should end up getting any where between 60 - 66k, assuming you are single. Rest goes in taxes.

There are lots of tax credit options, several of those apply to first time home buyers. I can't answer mortgage interest specifically. But there certainly are many advantages.

You can contribute a certain portion of your salary annually to RRSP (retirement savings' plans). Often employers contribute an equivalent amount and obviously this amount is not counted towards taxable income until you actually withdraw it.

So often people pay RRSP for a year or two and then use it towards down payment of first home (It is permitted).

The tax difference shouldn't be really significant because e.g. Quebec has the highest tax - i.e. you end up around 60k above. Also every day items including cost of fuel would be higher in Quebec.

But rents are cheapest in QC compared to rest of Canada (way low compared to Toronto or Vancouver), car insurance for a new Canadian could be as high as 400 a month in Toronto where as it would be around 100 in QC. There are more child care benefits in QC compared to the rest of country. So at the end of the day the tax cum cost of living difference doesn't remain as huge as it first appears.

 

[MMCanada2014]

The saving money term for me might be of value because my profession is indeed Software development and most of the people i know in UK - whose earning and living standards i have a good idea about and can compare with myself. This was the basis of my assessment. May be its because UK doesn't pay software that well. US undeniably pays the most to SDs all over the world. I think Canada is also better than the rest. You are spot on for health care. But i would add that other than excessively long waiting periods in Canada, the health care system does not really cover as much as it kind of claims to. I have quite long and weird experiences here including (but not limited to) competence or commitment issues from doctors. Plus if we compare it to Pakistan, there is a very unique thing. In Pakistan if you can pay or are insured, any good hospital would be very convenient for you. At least that has been my experience at all 3 major cities there.

However, in Canada i have seen doctors not actually going at length to suggest a test which indeed is required to clear a reasonable doubt about a problem. It could always be an individual situation but then i have feedback from many others and took the time to learn health care guidelines here. Because it is federally funded, there has to be a certain threshold of CERTAINTY passed for a doctor to prescribe a test, rather than doing it even when he suspects there COULD be a problem but is not certain enough.

In Pakistan a doctor would always ask you to be sure and do a test, once they know you can afford it or your insurance covers it. Here you have to convince the doctor irrespective of physical symptoms to conduct a test, which is really weird.

But yes tax credits are better here certainly.

In the end yes it is always the way you mentioned, some preferences some dislikes and an over all picture.

100% agreed. I came here few months back on work permit so you can say I am one of the lucky persons, but I knew every word you wrote longtime ago and this is why I have never thought of filing any immigration application till this golden chance knocked my door.

 

[carl321]

honestly.. aren't we all making Canada a paradise ??

51k ITAs ? multiplied by $12000(almost) = imagine all the foreign currencies that are flowing into the country

its all about mutual benefits though...

 

[Jaxon911]

honestly.. aren't we all making Canada a paradise ??

51k ITAs ? multiplied by $12000(almost) = imagine all the foreign currencies that are flowing into the country

its all about mutual benefits though...

We need to see other side of it too. That number of people coming in country would mean more demand for social services, mode traffic, more demand for everything incl. housing which would result in property price increase! If immigrants can't find good jobs and start surviving on low paying jobs then they'd prolly end up making country more miserable!

That's why US immigration policy is the best one I think. Skilled immigrants get to legitimately live in country and get equal access to services. And unskilled ones don't get in easily, but if they do, they've to live illegally, work on low wages and don't get equal access, they also are not high demanding immigrants so they don't contribute much to inflation and there are no freebies in US so they don't put extra burden on taxpayers.

If I compare UK with that, then it's reverse. Everyone gets free healthcare even illegal immigrants do. Even unskilled immigrants got in, because of flawed Tier 1 and HSMP visa schemes. Most of the migrants on Tier 1 and HSMP produce fake income documents by showing income from sources such as tuition to college students, "in addition to their minimum wage job" to reach required level of income. No employment sponsorship was needed. They stayed here for 5 years and got their ILR. And now they've only added to the number of people seeking benefits, instead of number of people paying high taxes. The other bad effect of it is that taxes had to be increased to beyond reasonable levels to sustain benefits, which encouraged high earners to move out of the UK. In the end, UK is becoming miserable because of immigrants to an extent. Of course, the benefit system is to be blamed not the immigrants. UK need to come out of it's habit of spending more than it can afford!

 

[jazibkg]

We need to see other side of it too. That number of people coming in country would mean more demand for social services, mode traffic, more demand for everything incl. housing which would result in property price increase! If immigrants can't find good jobs and start surviving on low paying jobs then they'd prolly end up making country more miserable!

That's why US immigration policy is the best one I think. Skilled immigrants get to legitimately live in country and get equal access to services. And unskilled ones don't get in easily, but if they do, they've to live illegally, work on low wages and don't get equal access, they also are not high demanding immigrants so they don't contribute much to inflation and there are no freebies in US so they don't put extra burden on taxpayers.

If I compare UK with that, then it's reverse. Everyone gets free healthcare even illegal immigrants do. Even unskilled immigrants got in, because of flawed Tier 1 and HSMP visa schemes. Most of the migrants on Tier 1 and HSMP produce fake income documents by showing income from sources such as tuition to college students, "in addition to their minimum wage job" to reach required level of income. No employment sponsorship was needed. They stayed here for 5 years and got their ILR. And now they've only added to the number of people seeking benefits, instead of number of people paying high taxes. The other bad effect of it is that taxes had to be increased to beyond reasonable levels to sustain benefits, which encouraged high earners to move out of the UK. In the end, UK is becoming miserable because of immigrants to an extent. Of course, the benefit system is to be blamed not the immigrants. UK need to come out of it's habit of spending more than it can afford!

Let me get this straight. All the things you're talking about here have already happened in Canada. "If immigrants can't find good jobs and start surviving on low paying jobs then they'd prolly end up making country more miserable!" you said - well that has already HAPPENED and happens everyday, so in your perception Canada has become similarly miserable as well.

You mentioned flawed Tier 1 and HSMP visas putting burden on UK resources, but I'd like to disagree here. You've taken the EU equation out of the context. Its the people flowing in every single day from the fringes of the European union and they're eligible for healthcare and NHS services can't say no to them. Imagine if NAFTA closed its borders and everyone from Mexico started showing up in Canada in mass numbers, that is what the UK is going through when it opened the borders to EU.

I haven't heard about illegal immigrants getting free healthcare through NHS in the UK, because a friend of mine who was visiting London from Milan (Pakistani national) was even billed for his time spent at a public London hospital in South Kensington due to an asthmatic attack, so I think you've got an incorrect perception here - illegal immigrants, overstayers and visitors from outside the EU do not qualify for healthcare from the NHS.

But let me tell you that everything you said about the UK, Canada has even flawed immigration system with a massive mismatch of the immigration policy from the job market. Express Entry is looking to correct that, but I can see how it will still end up being misused and exploited instead.

 

[fkl]

For the time being, express entry is only accepting people with confirmed LMIA based jobs. And they don't need to show any funds though of course they are already or will be working and paying taxes

Moreover, coverage of health care is a complex thing here. I am still struggling for a hospital bill of my son's surgery of appendicitis because it occurred with in first 3 months of his landing (most provinces have 3 month waiting period for medicals to kick in - whether you are worker, PR or citizen) although our visas were approved together and i came six months earlier. So i had been paying taxes for almost 10 months when he went through surgery.

 

[jhutti]

We need to see other side of it too. That number of people coming in country would mean more demand for social services, mode traffic, more demand for everything incl. housing which would result in property price increase! If immigrants can't find good jobs and start surviving on low paying jobs then they'd prolly end up making country more miserable!

That's why US immigration policy is the best one I think. Skilled immigrants get to legitimately live in country and get equal access to services. And unskilled ones don't get in easily, but if they do, they've to live illegally, work on low wages and don't get equal access, they also are not high demanding immigrants so they don't contribute much to inflation and there are no freebies in US so they don't put extra burden on taxpayers.

If I compare UK with that, then it's reverse. Everyone gets free healthcare even illegal immigrants do. Even unskilled immigrants got in, because of flawed Tier 1 and HSMP visa schemes. Most of the migrants on Tier 1 and HSMP produce fake income documents by showing income from sources such as tuition to college students, "in addition to their minimum wage job" to reach required level of income. No employment sponsorship was needed. They stayed here for 5 years and got their ILR. And now they've only added to the number of people seeking benefits, instead of number of people paying high taxes. The other bad effect of it is that taxes had to be increased to beyond reasonable levels to sustain benefits, which encouraged high earners to move out of the UK. In the end, UK is becoming miserable because of immigrants to an extent. Of course, the benefit system is to be blamed not the immigrants. UK need to come out of it's habit of spending more than it can afford!

HSMP scheme was a good for high skill in UK. What was your problem with that scheme. I came to uk on HSMP scheme only. Lived their 5 years, got ILR also. My income was close to 50 GBP per annum. It is other story I left UK for Canadian PR due to family reasons. Both places have their own pro & cons. UK kids education , Cambridge neighbourhood & health system was all great. Canada is also fine.

 

[canadadreamming]

Canada immigration is right now EASIEST in the world, even easier than African countries. That's why people are moving here because they have no other choice. Imagine if you came from India or China, competition back home is too high you always seek to migrate somewhere else because there is no opportunity for you back home. And when there is no other choice, Canada is the only destination you can head too. If Canada closed the door just like USA, arguably there is no where to go for people from developing countries and maybe those countries will be forced to develop and one day become more developed than the West now.

 

[pziegler1986]

I still have no clue how you speak about 'saving money' in Canada. I have previously worked in the UK and find Canada to be a pathetically underpaid, whilst only a few jobs that actually pay what its worth (read; IT/software development). Healthcare system is slow in both countries with long waits, but Canada has excessively longer wait periods. However, the welfare state and tax credits system may be more extensive in Canada than the UK (I never qualified for any tax credits in the UK). The current low CAD$ doesn't help either. I used to meet quite a few Canadians during my time in the UK, and have met quite a few people from teh UK in Canada. It works both ways. That said, the few thousand british pounds I managed to save in my last months in the UK did last me quite a bit in Canada, but mainly due to the conversion rate ;D

I'm here on an IEC Visa, and am an Accounting/Finance professional and the biggest shock I received was the staggeringly low salaries here compared to Australia for that industry. I am getting paid $20-25K less here than back home. I've come to grips with it now but sheesh it was an eye opener at the beginning.

 

[jazibkg]

I'm here on an IEC Visa, and am an Accounting/Finance professional and the biggest shock I received was the staggeringly low salaries here compared to Australia for that industry. I am getting paid $20-25K less here than back home. I've come to grips with it now but sheesh it was an eye opener at the beginning.

But Australia pays more than either the UK or Canada for ANY industry, so that is something you should have known I guess with the minimum wage comparisons?

But you're on an IEC anyways, supposed to be fun, travel and stuff ;D

Yes, definitely an eye opener. Employers here easily get away with paying for less due to the demand / supply scenario.

 

[pziegler1986]

But Australia pays more than either the UK or Canada for ANY industry, so that is something you should have known I guess with the minimum wage comparisons?

But you're on an IEC anyways, supposed to be fun, travel and stuff ;D

Yes, definitely an eye opener. Employers here easily get away with paying for less due to the demand / supply scenario.

Not really no. Besides, I knew wages here in Canada were lower but as I'm on IEC I didn't really bother to do research here as earning $$ wasn't my top priority, however I didn't realise it was going to be THAT much lower.

My ex colleagues from back home are earning equiv $120-150k AUD in UK same level of experience and title. I'm pretty sure UK pays Accounting/Finance professionals the most in the developed world from what I have experienced and heard (first hand). Although I do agree Australia pays some of the highest wages in the world on average for all industries.

 

[Jaxon911]

Let me get this straight. All the things you're talking about here have already happened in Canada. "If immigrants can't find good jobs and start surviving on low paying jobs then they'd prolly end up making country more miserable!" you said - well that has already HAPPENED and happens everyday, so in your perception Canada has become similarly miserable as well.

You mentioned flawed Tier 1 and HSMP visas putting burden on UK resources, but I'd like to disagree here. You've taken the EU equation out of the context. Its the people flowing in every single day from the fringes of the European union and they're eligible for healthcare and NHS services can't say no to them. Imagine if NAFTA closed its borders and everyone from Mexico started showing up in Canada in mass numbers, that is what the UK is going through when it opened the borders to EU. -You're right, I forgot to mention the EU - especially Easter EU factor!

I haven't heard about illegal immigrants getting free healthcare through NHS in the UK, because a friend of mine who was visiting London from Milan (Pakistani national) was even billed for his time spent at a public London hospital in South Kensington due to an asthmatic attack, so I think you've got an incorrect perception here - illegal immigrants, overstayers and visitors from outside the EU do not qualify for healthcare from the NHS. - Many if not most illegal immigrants do get free healthcare. That is because many of them land in the UK holding valid visa such as Student visa which allows them to register with NHS. Some find a fake document to get registered. Technically they do not qualify but once they've registered with a GP, they have free access to NHS services forever.

But let me tell you that everything you said about the UK, Canada has even flawed immigration system with a massive mismatch of the immigration policy from the job market. Express Entry is looking to correct that, but I can see how it will still end up being misused and exploited instead. - I hope EE brings changes in Canada. However, good thing about Canada is still that they have a limit on number of people allowed in every year. At one point UK was welcoming 300,000 people per year. Still it's something around 150,000 immigrants per year.