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Age Difference

bagelbagel81

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sunsun said:
I give Big Hug to both of you.....
hehe.

For the record I agree with both of you to a degree. I actually think there is a form of discrimination, but it is necessary- and if you have a genuine marriage/ relationship you shouldn't be worrying about it anyway as you would have the proof. It does suck, but it's life.

I also can imagine when one reads many threads pointing out the flaws of the immigration system it can wear you down. It doesn't mean it's not a good system, though - otherwise you would not have the capacity to immigrate in the first place. It's the whole whether the glass id half full or half empty. Either way my opinion is one should be grateful they have the opportunity to immigrate- it's not a right it's a privilege.
 

amikety

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bagelbagel81 said:
hehe.

For the record I agree with both of you to a degree. I actually think there is a form of discrimination, but it is necessary- and if you have a genuine marriage/ relationship you shouldn't be worrying about it anyway as you would have the proof. It does suck, but it's life.

I also can imagine when one reads many threads pointing out the flaws of the immigration system it can wear you down. It doesn't mean it's not a good system, though - otherwise you would not have the capacity to immigrate in the first place. It's the whole whether the glass id half full or half empty. Either way my opinion is one should be grateful they have the opportunity to immigrate- it's not a right it's a privilege.
Very good post, thank you :)
 

Happywife08

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ekaterina1984 said:
My canadian husband is 28 years old older than me we are just married we have been dating 2 years but didnt live together just met twice a year. We are planning to spend honeymoon in Prague next year and apply for wife visa after our honey moon. I love my older husband . I feel more loved more appreciated and more understood in this relationship than I have in any other realtionship I have had in my life.We have unusual situation but I think everything will be fine . I'm russian by the way. and it's more difficult for us to prove that our relationship is genuine because a visa officer will say '' she definitly has and immigration purpose!!!'' ;D
That's exactly the way I feel!!! He appreciates and values me so much!!! I love that from him...
I guess it does hurt me. when people look at us and they assume and make up their own stories, and I am not gonna say it affects me all the time but sometimes it does because I really love him and it hurts that SOME people just think I want him for that. :(
 

Happywife08

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Thank you all for your feedback...
For the record nowhere in my post says Canada it's so horrible or anywhere near that. It is a beautiful country and its people are nice. and that's why I specified by some people.
and Actually one of the reasons we are here it's because we cannot live in my country anymore things are getting harder and harder and for my hubby it's really hard since in my country they are making things harder for foreigners and I am not going to put my hubby through all that just because I am better staying in my country he sacrifice for me to stay there for 4 years when he was tired of the system as his life partner and wife now. I will be with him for better and worse. so actually we had no choice but to come here which for me was not a sacrifice since I think is beautiful. Like I said before nowhere I said Canada is not good, I said some people are racists and they are here, in My country in Europe and anywhere, there is always some uneducated people who will be racist, something we cannot change :(.... I went through a horrible experience right at Pearson Airport ( I do not wich that to my worst enemy) Some police treated me like garbage. and then Another lady was extremely nice to me that she even apologized to me for this guys actions, after all this I still think Canadian people are extremely nice, not just because some people with need of feeling powerful treated me that way I hate everyone.

to bad some posts got misunderstood!! it always happens :( :(
Anyway Merry Christmas Everyone!!! and Happy new Year!!
 

amikety

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I'm amazed how often people stop their cars to allow me to cross the street, even when I am patiently waiting for them to pass first. I've never experienced that anywhere. Most people in Canada are very nice, kind, and great people in general.

It's sad to hear of the troubles in your home country. Please keep safe.
 

bagelbagel81

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Ttcdfolk

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amikety said:
Canada remains one of the easier countries to immigrate to... despite the bumps.
True that. Man I have lived in China for the past ten years, and I could tell you about discimanation.
 

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frege said:
Just as a personal comment - I find it demeaning that the government judges couples this way based on their personal characteristics. There aren't many areas where the law actually seems to condone discrimination, but this is one.
In my opinion, i agree with Canada using age as a flag for trying to judge if a relationship is legit or not.

Think of it this way... imagine if you're a visa officer and you come across an application of a 25-yr old foreigner, applying for sponsorship after marrying an 80-yr old Canadian. Are you honestly saying there would be no immediate alarm bells going off in your head, no matter what "proofs" were included in the application? No doubt as a VO you would 100% ask for an interview in this case to see in person.

Obviously this is extreme, but what it shows is that at some point age DOES become a legit factor. What differs is a persons opinion about what an acceptable age difference is vs a red flag difference. 20 yrs? 40 yrs? 60 yrs? Every person and culture has different standards, so don't accuse people of being discriminatory when in fact all people would probably be just as discriminatory with a slightly more extreme case.
 

frege

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Rob_TO said:
In my opinion, i agree with Canada using age as a flag for trying to judge if a relationship is legit or not.

Think of it this way... imagine if you're a visa officer and you come across an application of a 25-yr old foreigner, applying for sponsorship after marrying an 80-yr old Canadian. Are you honestly saying there would be no immediate alarm bells going off in your head, no matter what "proofs" were included in the application? No doubt as a VO you would 100% ask for an interview in this case to see in person.

Obviously this is extreme, but what it shows is that at some point age DOES become a legit factor. What differs is a persons opinion about what an acceptable age difference is vs a red flag difference. 20 yrs? 40 yrs? 60 yrs? Every person and culture has different standards, so don't accuse people of being discriminatory when in fact all people would probably be just as discriminatory with a slightly more extreme case.
The visa officers are trained to look for what they call "incompatibility." For example, if an Indian Muslim marries a Canadian Sikh originally from India, the visa officer will say something like "this relationship would never be accepted in India." And then subjects them to what can be a degrading and dehumanizing process that can go as far as asking questions about their sex life. In fact, this is the government of Canada reproducing the very prejudice that might exist in India. It is now Canada, not just India, that is questioning the relationship because it is mixed. Canada is saying a Sikh can't marry a Muslim without being subjected to unfavourable treatment. We would never accept - other than in the immigration context - that India's laws and customs about who can marry whom should be imported into Canada.

Unfortunately, this is not limited to social disapproval in India. If the social disapproval exists in Western countries, such as is the case with age difference, then again they will refer to "incompatibility." Let's not pretend that the notion of "compatibility" is anything other than a proxy for "social acceptability." Visa officers have been known - here on the forum and if you read appeal cases - to make extremely disparaging comments to applicants, which are mostly along the lines of "What do you see in him?" I read about a case of a marriage that was considered phony in Belgium because she was a beautiful African and he was a fat Belgian. The official may have gotten in trouble for writing what they were really thinking, but wouldn't have if only they'd thought it and phrased it nicely in terms of "compatibility." Even if this couple's marriage had been accepted as genuine after being questioned, how do you think they would have felt? Is it worth it to do this to people? Should the government be making official judgments about who is attractive and desirable?

Even when visa officers are tactful enough (or well-trained enough) not to say these things outright, if you read between the lines it's often apparent they're thinking them. The problem is that they are basically trained to say "society would not accept this relationship, so I cannot accept it." Given the authority they have, this also gives them cover to put into practice their own prejudices which they share with some segments of society. But regardless of whether it is their own prejudices or society's, the Canadian government becomes the de facto enforcer of social norms about who can love whom.

Again, I'll refer everyone to the example of racial profiling. If statistics show that for whatever reason members of some ethnic groups are more likely to offend, would that justify that they receive heightened scrutiny from the police? Some people would argue that this would make the police more efficient (analogous to the greater efficiency in rooting out sham marriages). The answer that our society and our courts have given is that this is not acceptable. Any possible gain in efficiency is more than offset by the serious attack racial profiling represents on the dignity of members of the targeted groups. Moreover, practice shows that racial profiling is often closely associated with officers' own prejudices more than with any crime statistics. Likewise, visa officers are human beings with prejudices, but unlike police officers, they're actually given a green light to apply them as long as they can find the right wording.

In spousal sponsorship, the requirement to provide evidence about communication, visits, etc, is non-discriminatory, and already ought to do a good job of identifying phony marriages. Even if a few additional sham marriages could be detected by focusing on "incompatible" ones, I don't think it's worth it to put couples through this on the basis of characteristics such as age, race, religion, etc., or even a visa officer's notion of what makes a person desirable.

If you had a mixed marriage, or a similar one that already caused some people to give you funny looks, how would you feel about the government investigating your relationship for that reason? The implication is generally that the Canadian partner is not desirable for any reason other than their citizenship, and constitutes a sort of official endorsement of the funny looks. This is offensive and has no place in Canada.
 

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Hi Happy Wife,

I'd like you to know that Pierre Trudeau, the prime minister of Canada, married Margaret Sinclair in 1971, while he was in office. He was 51 and she was 22. If it's good for them, it's good for you.

Some people here may object that Margaret Trudeau was Canadian, hence exempt from official investigation of her relationship. In that case, there is always Carla Bruni and Nicolas Sarkozy. I'll bet you anything that when she was naturalized as a French citizen, that country's authorities never asked her what she saw in him, even though about 90% of the French population was asking this very question.
 

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frege said:
If you had a mixed marriage, or a similar one that already caused some people to give you funny looks, how would you feel about the government investigating your relationship for that reason? The implication is generally that the Canadian partner is not desirable for any reason other than their citizenship, and constitutes a sort of official endorsement of the funny looks. This is offensive and has no place in Canada.
Sticking to the topic, we are talking only about AGE here.

And as I said, i see absolutely no problem in having an excessive age difference raise an automatic red flag. I think its one of the more common areas of immigration fraud, where younger foreign men/women seek out older unmarried or divorced Canadians as they know they are vulnerable and looking for a partner... in order to gain citizenship.

IMO a 28 yr age difference as describe by the original poster, i wouldn't see much of an issue with as long as there was a long relationship and lots of proofs, and if i was a VO i wouldn't necessarily need an interview. But if the age difference was 35, 40 or more yrs... well at some point I think it turns into an automatic interview and severe scrutiny. If any historical stats showed that there was a greater chance of fraud as the age difference increased beyond certain numbers, then i don't see any issue with using this data to weed out potential frauds.
 

frege

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Rob_TO said:
Sticking to the topic, we are talking only about AGE here.

And as I said, i see absolutely no problem in having an excessive age difference raise an automatic red flag. I think its one of the more common areas of immigration fraud, where younger foreign men/women seek out older unmarried or divorced Canadians as they know they are vulnerable and looking for a partner... in order to gain citizenship.

IMO a 28 yr age difference as describe by the original poster, i wouldn't see much of an issue with as long as there was a long relationship and lots of proofs, and if i was a VO i wouldn't necessarily need an interview. But if the age difference was 35, 40 or more yrs... well at some point I think it turns into an automatic interview and severe scrutiny. If any historical stats showed that there was a greater chance of fraud as the age difference increased beyond certain numbers, then i don't see any issue with using this data to weed out potential frauds.
What if historical stats showed that certain ethnic groups committed more crimes? Should the police treat them differently?

Race and age are both prohibited grounds of discrimination.

Edit: Also, the problem is that age is really just one aspect of something bigger. Age needs to be situated in the broader context that visa officers are making subjective judgments about people's desirability as partners. That's what is distasteful and unnecessary, since there are other means available to evaluate genuineness.
 

Steph C

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Rob_TO said:
IMO a 28 yr age difference as describe by the original poster, i wouldn't see much of an issue with as long as there was a long relationship and lots of proofs, and if i was a VO i wouldn't necessarily need an interview. But if the age difference was 35, 40 or more yrs... well at some point I think it turns into an automatic interview and severe scrutiny.
An age difference is an age difference. 28 years is a huge difference, at that point how could you even make the distinction between 28 years, 40 years and more. The younger person would still be a youth and the older person would be practically a senior citizen. No matter how you slice it, it's still not 'normal.' Although I believe they can be as genuine as the next relationship, you still have to look at the facts - this only happens when the older (usually a man) is significantly more rich or powerful than the younger party. Look at Trudeau - powerful man, Hugh Hefner - powerful, famous, rich man. You take a Canadian to another country and he will be rich too, and yes it's no problem for him to get a much younger lady.. sure it can be true love on both parts. But there is always a perceived inequality to it, in the unspoken fact that the older man probably couldn't get a younger lady if he weren't richer or powerful.
 

frege

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Steph C said:
An age difference is an age difference. 28 years is a huge difference, at that point how could you even make the distinction between 28 years, 40 years and more. The younger person would still be a youth and the older person would be practically a senior citizen. No matter how you slice it, it's still not 'normal.' Although I believe they can be as genuine as the next relationship, you still have to look at the facts - this only happens when the older (usually a man) is significantly more rich or powerful than the younger party. Look at Trudeau - powerful man, Hugh Hefner - powerful, famous, rich man. You take a Canadian to another country and he will be rich too, and yes it's no problem for him to get a much younger lady.. sure it can be true love on both parts. But there is always a perceived inequality to it, in the unspoken fact that the older man probably couldn't get a younger lady if he weren't richer or powerful.
I think your answer illustrates well one reason why the government shouldn't become involved in this. There is too much potential for social perceptions about inequality, etc., to intrude into what should only be about genuineness. This is why time and again, you read about cases where visa officers seem to disapprove of the relationship and act based on that, but make up reasons saying that they don't think it's genuine. They substitute their perception of whether two people *should* love each other for the question they should be answering, which is whether they *do* love each other and intend to spend their lives together.
 

Steph C

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frege said:
I think your answer illustrates well one reason why the government shouldn't become involved in this. There is too much potential for social perceptions about inequality, etc., to intrude into what should only be about genuineness. This is why time and again, you read about cases where visa officers seem to disapprove of the relationship and act based on that, but make up reasons saying that they don't think it's genuine. They substitute their perception of whether two people *should* love each other for the question they should be answering, which is whether they *do* love each other and intend to spend their lives together.
Yes well you can't measure love, and that is what CIC is trying to do I suppose. I'm a strong believer that everybody's relationship is equal and no less valid then any one else's. That's why nobody should ever say that someone's relationship is any less valid based on their ages, how long they've been together, whether they are married or common law or have kids or not. Everybody's relationship is true to them.