How does CBSA know how many days you were out of Canada?

[mastersboy]

I guess, I was just trying to ask, in the experience of the members of this forum, how often does CBSA report the exit dates for you? Rare to have exits in ATIP, or very common? I just want to know if me and my spouse got unlucky or is it very common to have no exit records in your ATIP report?

 

[mastersboy]

Unrelated to this but hope someone can help me with below questions. Please consider answering each question by their number:


1. I was wondering if you know if for citizenship application, is it possible to get RQ before interview or even before AOR? OR RQ always happens at/after the interview?
2. Are the citizenship test and interview the same thing? Or do they happen together on same day?
3. Full background:

Sep 2015: Spouse and I both move to Canada for grad school
Sep 2017: Both get PGWP
May 2018: Both get PR
June 2018: Spouse leaves for U.S. works and lives in U.S. for ~8 months
Feb 2019: Spouse comes back to Canada, starts full-time Canadian job
Feb 2021: Spouse considering either contract job or U.S. job that lets them work remotely

Please note that during all this time I have lived and worked in Canada with full-time jobs and no gaps in employment. We are looking to apply for citizenship in August, (I will have tonnes of days, my wife will have ~1195 residency days) and wondering that:

From perspective of avoiding/minimizing chance of RQ - when working for a U.S. employer from Canada completely remotely, is it advised to work as independent contractor or regular U.S. employee but working remotely from Canada? My spouse had already worked for a Canadian job for ~2 years during her eligibility period for citizenship. We are looking to decide between one of the two U.S. jobs now - contract based or regular U.S. job but working remotely. Wondering which one will reduce chance of RQ the most.

4. Should we apply together? The fact that I was here during all that time, should help my spouse's application even though they have lesser residency days?

@dpenabill @torontosm @Ponga @masood8 @mpsqra @Alurra71 @scylla @caipsnotes @steaky @JHT @canuck78 @armoured - inviting you to please advise.

 

[frequent flyer]

@mastersboy
The answer to your question .. without guessing or unfounded expectations (although some of these might make sense and seem logical) is that CBSA provide you with the information and records they have (which I will elaborate on below). Without an investigation or additional information provided to them by other sources .. they typically have the following info.:
- Traditionally .. CBSA didn't know about your exits. (this is why CIC / IRCC relied on your your reporting and somtimes additional information / documents from you in applications like PR Card renewal and citizenship and then they would examine your submitted info. and double check it for discrepancies or inconsistencies with itself and with what they have).
- Starting June 2013 .. CBSA started getting and keeping exits only by land to US. This means if you travelled to US by plane .. they still wouldn't get or keep that record.
- Starting June 2020 .. they started collecting and keeping exit records by air. This was only possible with a new legislation .. bill C-21

One of the myths is that CBSA always knew about our exits as they had access to the airlines data. While it makes sense to some to think so .. there is no source or fact that supports it. Perhaps they got the travellers data upon departure but didn't keep it. Or any other plausible guess. But I do not like to engage in the guessing game.

The fact is that .. in order to have and keep these exit records starting 2020 .. they needed certain legislation. If they always had these records from the beginning .. what was the reason for the legislation?

These are the available confirmed information from official sources and based on my own experience and others when they applied for the entry / exit records from CBSA.

So .. in summary .. they are giving you what they have .. except in cases of formal investigation or exceptional circumstances.

 

[armoured]

The fact is that .. in order to have and keep these exit records starting 2020 .. they needed certain legislation. If they always had these records from the beginning .. what was the reason for the legislation?

There's a related piece of the puzzle that complicates things (although I don't have details specific to CBSA and the exit records): there has been a big political/legal/privacy stink about government keeping database records on Canadian citizens (nationals actually which includes PRs). And specifically about what they keep without specific authorization and all of the related access/privacy/sharing issues. So it's become much more formal and regulated in ways that may actually restrict some things they were able to do before.

 

[frequent flyer]

@armoured
Possible.

But as I said .. I do not like to think this way .. for practical reasons.
First .. because I cannot prove or disprove such unsubstantiated claims. Second .. because it wouldn't not change the outcome.

The other thing is that the OP was asking if they are alone or singled out in their experience and I was explaining that their experience is everybody's else and in fact it is the only expected result from their application.

 

[harirajmohan]

I guess, I was just trying to ask, in the experience of the members of this forum, how often does CBSA report the exit dates for you? Rare to have exits in ATIP, or very common? I just want to know if me and my spouse got unlucky or is it very common to have no exit records in your ATIP report?

CBP shares entry records to CBSA hence CBSA will have exit record.
I havent seen cbsa record but i know that they share because when i enter Canada I can see exit record in US hence they do share information of exits mutually.

In cbp records, i have seen 2-3 records per 2-3 years missing/not updated with date. Not sure if they have it in their internal system. But its not for you to worry about it. Log your dates of trips and enter your calculation correctly and you should be fine.

Unrelated to this but hope someone can help me with below questions. Please consider answering each question by their number:


1. I was wondering if you know if for citizenship application, is it possible to get RQ before interview or even before AOR? OR RQ always happens at/after the interview?
2. Are the citizenship test and interview the same thing? Or do they happen together on same day?
3. Full background:

Sep 2015: Spouse and I both move to Canada for grad school
Sep 2017: Both get PGWP
May 2018: Both get PR
June 2018: Spouse leaves for U.S. works and lives in U.S. for ~8 months
Feb 2019: Spouse comes back to Canada, starts full-time Canadian job
Feb 2021: Spouse considering either contract job or U.S. job that lets them work remotely

Please note that during all this time I have lived and worked in Canada with full-time jobs and no gaps in employment. We are looking to apply for citizenship in August, (I will have tonnes of days, my wife will have ~1195 residency days) and wondering that:

From perspective of avoiding/minimizing chance of RQ - when working for a U.S. employer from Canada completely remotely, is it advised to work as independent contractor or regular U.S. employee but working remotely from Canada? My spouse had already worked for a Canadian job for ~2 years during her eligibility period for citizenship. We are looking to decide between one of the two U.S. jobs now - contract based or regular U.S. job but working remotely. Wondering which one will reduce chance of RQ the most.

4. Should we apply together? The fact that I was here during all that time, should help my spouse's application even though they have lesser residency days?

@dpenabill @torontosm @Ponga @masood8 @mpsqra @Alurra71 @scylla @caipsnotes @steaky @JHT @canuck78 @armoured - inviting you to please advise.

Interview is not mandatory. Cannot predict who would get RQ/interview and if it will occur before or after the Test. But of course AOR comes first. You should first apply before you start on asking on these since you cant avoid any process steps.

FOr the people who have more US travel, mostly officers ask for CBP records (from https://foiaonline.gov/foiaonline/action/public/home) hence get the records after you apply for citizenship and wait for the officer to ask on it.
You cant know who would get RQ and who cant. And you cannot avoid it too. Most common documents nowadays asked are https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/july-2019-citizenship-applicants.625579/page-193#post-9074993

Applying together doesnt make any difference in eligibility days for each other. Individually each person has to prove the needed days.

 

[mastersboy]

CBP shares entry records to CBSA hence CBSA will have exit record.
I havent seen cbsa record but i know that they share because when i enter Canada I can see exit record in US hence they do share information of exits mutually.

In cbp records, i have seen 2-3 records per 2-3 years missing/not updated with date. Not sure if they have it in their internal system. But its not for you to worry about it. Log your dates of trips and enter your calculation correctly and you should be fine.

Did you have any exit records on your CBSA ATIP report at all?

Applying together doesnt make any difference in eligibility days for each other. Individually each person has to prove the needed days.

I know it wouldn't impact eligibility residency days wise, but I was wondering if it makes the application look stronger as it proves significant ties to Canada, given your spouse has been here almost everyday.

 

[alxms10]

I asked for both. Although I only have two trips outside of Canada, so not sure if they genuinely didnt have any exit records. But I am curious if folks get ANY exit records at all, ever when they apply to get their entry/exit records?

To confirm, I also asked for both and I only got entry records, below is a quote from my document I received:

After a thorough search, no exit records were found that respond to your request.

 

[dpenabill]

CBP shares entry records to CBSA hence CBSA will have exit record.

To confirm, I also asked for both and I only got entry records, below is a quote from my document I received:

After a thorough search, no exit records were found that respond to your request.

There is a difference between data stored by a government body or agency, versus data that body or agency can obtain access to.

The latter is not information the agency "has," and therefore any ATIP request for copies will generate a nil result.

For exit from Canada data based on entry to U.S. records: If IRCC initiates an investigatory referral to CBSA regarding a PR's presence in Canada, its NSSD will likely employ interagency protocols to access the U.S. gathered and stored information to assist in that investigation and compile information about the particular individual's exit dates. This is most likely subject to specific for-cause requirements (likely according to a standard less than what is described as required "probable cause" in U.S. criminal law, but nonetheless an articulated basis for needing access to the information). Even once acquired and compiled, it remains likely this information will still NOT show up in a response to an ATIP request because it is confidential investigatory information.

Another, hopefully illustrative example: IRCC can access CBSA travel history of a client's entry dates to cross-check a PR's reported travel history attendant either a citizenship application or a determination of Residency Obligation compliance. But any ATIP application to IRCC for such travel history information will (at least usually) generate a nil result. (Which means for CBSA entry information, an ATIP application needs to be addressed to CBSA, not IRCC.)

Note: whether an agency "has" certain information is not always a cut-and-dried proposition. It can get complicated. So far as I have seen, Canada's agencies tend to favour interpretations limiting access. For those who think agencies like IRCC and CBSA have been excessively slow to respond to requests, they should take a look at the huge and very lengthy backlog of cases made to the Privacy Commissioner challenging agency's decisions.

 

[Ponga]

Another, hopefully illustrative example: IRCC can access CBSA travel history of a client's entry dates to cross-check a PR's reported travel history attendant either a citizenship application or a determination of Residency Obligation compliance. But any ATIP application to IRCC for such travel history information will (at least usually) generate a nil result. (Which means for CBSA entry information, an ATIP application needs to be addressed to CBSA, not IRCC.)

Interesting and clearly very valuable information for me, as I am needing to renew my expired PRC. I figured that, per the instructions on IMM5444E, allowing CBSA to provide travel data directly to IIRC, was supposed to be the `easiest' option. I still haven't found concrete information as to whether or not a U.S. Citizen exiting Canada is being documented/recorded (at least by air). Even if they are (now), my last exit from Canada was ~ on, or before, Feb 2020 (and would have been a day trip), with my Canadian spouse, across a land border in our personal vehicle. Prior to that it would have been in Nov 2019 (14 days abroad). Yes, I should have kept a proper Travel Journal, but the fact that all of my limited exits from Canada over the last 5 years, [NO exits from March 2020 to present, thanks to the `Twilight Zone' chapter of life that we've all endured], had been brief (no longer than ~20 days per year), combined with that every one of those days outside Canada was when traveling with my Canadian spouse, confirms (at least to me) that I have met the R.O.. Since it probably isn't enough, in and of itself, to convince IIRC, I probably need to look for supporting evidence.

Being a U.S. citizen, it seems that it's remotely possible, though perhaps somewhat unlikely, that IIRC will be able to access/retrieve my complete travel history (exits from Canada) from CBSA to assess my R.O.. Even if my logic is skewed, I may be `screwed' if I cannot obtain this information from my (broken) crystal ball. As mentioned, I have not traveled often over the past 5 years but would not be confident in completing the Travel History based on `best guesses'.

Do you recommend that I order my travel history directly from CBSA, even though all indicators say that for PRC renewal, it is NOT needed, as long as authorization is given for that when filling the IMM5444E? Perhaps U.S. Citizens should in fact request this, since exit data may or may not be available for him/her/them? Further, since the applicant has to write `something' in the Travel History section, would writing "Please see the CBSA entry/exit data that I have give you permission to obtain", suffice? Since the IIRC would be requesting the travel history from CBSA AFTER the application has been submitted and received...how otherwise would the applicant provide travel info?

To add to the angst, we are hoping/planning to travel abroad later this year. I have concerns that if I cannot resolve/receive the PRC renewal in time, and have to travel on my U.S. Passport alone, saying nothing about PR to the airline(s), how CBSA would evaluate my R.O. when presenting myself at Primary at our home airport.

Thank you.

 

[dpenabill]

Interesting and clearly very valuable information for me, as I am needing to renew my expired PRC. I figured that, per the instructions on IMM5444E, allowing CBSA to provide travel data directly to IIRC, was supposed to be the `easiest' option. I still haven't found concrete information as to whether or not a U.S. Citizen exiting Canada is being documented/recorded (at least by air). Even if they are (now), my last exit from Canada was ~ on, or before, Feb 2020 (and would have been a day trip), with my Canadian spouse, across a land border in our personal vehicle. Prior to that it would have been in Nov 2019 (14 days abroad). Yes, I should have kept a proper Travel Journal, but the fact that all of my limited exits from Canada over the last 5 years, [NO exits from March 2020 to present, thanks to the `Twilight Zone' chapter of life that we've all endured], had been brief (no longer than ~20 days per year), combined with that every one of those days outside Canada was when traveling with my Canadian spouse, confirms (at least to me) that I have met the R.O.. Since it probably isn't enough, in and of itself, to convince IIRC, I probably need to look for supporting evidence.

Being a U.S. citizen, it seems that it's remotely possible, though perhaps somewhat unlikely, that IIRC will be able to access/retrieve my complete travel history (exits from Canada) from CBSA to assess my R.O.. Even if my logic is skewed, I may be `screwed' if I cannot obtain this information from my (broken) crystal ball. As mentioned, I have not traveled often over the past 5 years but would not be confident in completing the Travel History based on `best guesses'.

Do you recommend that I order my travel history directly from CBSA, even though all indicators say that for PRC renewal, it is NOT needed, as long as authorization is given for that when filling the IMM5444E? Perhaps U.S. Citizens should in fact request this, since exit data may or may not be available for him/her/them? Further, since the applicant has to write `something' in the Travel History section, would writing "Please see the CBSA entry/exit data that I have give you permission to obtain", suffice? Since the IIRC would be requesting the travel history from CBSA AFTER the application has been submitted and received...how otherwise would the applicant provide travel info?

To add to the angst, we are hoping/planning to travel abroad later this year. I have concerns that if I cannot resolve/receive the PRC renewal in time, and have to travel on my U.S. Passport alone, saying nothing about PR to the airline(s), how CBSA would evaluate my R.O when presenting myself at Primary at our home airport.

Thank you.

I do not offer recommendations other than the generic, applies to everyone, follow the rules kind of thing. I am NO expert. I am not qualified to offer personal advice. And even for someone who might be qualified to give personal advice this is not an appropriate forum for sharing anywhere near enough information necessary to give such personal advice.

I can say that if you are living in Canada, and you have been living in Canada for years, and you have not had extensive travel outside Canada in the last three plus years, there should be NO concern at all about relying on a U.S. passport when traveling and returning to Canada. I would say especially if you are traveling with a Canadian citizen spouse, but the prospects of even being questioned about RO compliance seem so utterly low, based on what you outlined, hard to see that making any difference.

Of course there is typically a paranoia undertow nagging me, so from what you outlined the concern I sense is whether there is something lurking in the shadows that YOU know, causing YOU to have concerns where apparently there should be none at all.

Almost likewise in regards to making the application for a new PR card. If you can definitively state there has been, recently, a more than two year period during which you remained in Canada the whole time (many of us are among this group), some best estimates as to travel dates before that should not cause any problem. Just be sure to be clear about what you are reporting. And of course best to make a best-effort to reconstruct travel history as completely and accurately as practically possible. That would be more important for a citizenship application than it is for a PR card application (especially for a PR clearly living in Canada for years).

But here again, that seems so obvious I cannot help wondering if there is something else at play, since otherwise it is hard to grasp why you have concerns. (Yeah, some people tend to be more cautious than others, count me in, but they are usually the sort who keep sufficient records to easily populate the PR card application travel history.)

 

[scylla]

Interesting and clearly very valuable information for me, as I am needing to renew my expired PRC. I figured that, per the instructions on IMM5444E, allowing CBSA to provide travel data directly to IIRC, was supposed to be the `easiest' option. I still haven't found concrete information as to whether or not a U.S. Citizen exiting Canada is being documented/recorded (at least by air). Even if they are (now), my last exit from Canada was ~ on, or before, Feb 2020 (and would have been a day trip), with my Canadian spouse, across a land border in our personal vehicle. Prior to that it would have been in Nov 2019 (14 days abroad). Yes, I should have kept a proper Travel Journal, but the fact that all of my limited exits from Canada over the last 5 years, [NO exits from March 2020 to present, thanks to the `Twilight Zone' chapter of life that we've all endured], had been brief (no longer than ~20 days per year), combined with that every one of those days outside Canada was when traveling with my Canadian spouse, confirms (at least to me) that I have met the R.O.. Since it probably isn't enough, in and of itself, to convince IIRC, I probably need to look for supporting evidence.

Being a U.S. citizen, it seems that it's remotely possible, though perhaps somewhat unlikely, that IIRC will be able to access/retrieve my complete travel history (exits from Canada) from CBSA to assess my R.O.. Even if my logic is skewed, I may be `screwed' if I cannot obtain this information from my (broken) crystal ball. As mentioned, I have not traveled often over the past 5 years but would not be confident in completing the Travel History based on `best guesses'.

Do you recommend that I order my travel history directly from CBSA, even though all indicators say that for PRC renewal, it is NOT needed, as long as authorization is given for that when filling the IMM5444E? Perhaps U.S. Citizens should in fact request this, since exit data may or may not be available for him/her/them? Further, since the applicant has to write `something' in the Travel History section, would writing "Please see the CBSA entry/exit data that I have give you permission to obtain", suffice? Since the IIRC would be requesting the travel history from CBSA AFTER the application has been submitted and received...how otherwise would the applicant provide travel info?

To add to the angst, we are hoping/planning to travel abroad later this year. I have concerns that if I cannot resolve/receive the PRC renewal in time, and have to travel on my U.S. Passport alone, saying nothing about PR to the airline(s), how CBSA would evaluate my R.O. when presenting myself at Primary at our home airport.

Thank you.

So I have two experiences that may or may not help. More like my husband's experiences.

He is Amercian and I sponsored him for PR. He's been a CAN citizen for quite a while now.

Story #1: When he applied for Canadian citizenship (2012?), we thought we had tracked all of his travel and his application was 100% accurate (we kept an excel spreadsheet). He travels fairly extensively for work (both to the US and internationally) but had well above the minimum number of days required for citizenship. We missed one single trip to the US (by car). And it was a same day trip (he didn't even stay overnight). IRCC found it, called it out, he got RQ and we had to do a bunch more paperwork to get his citizenship application finalized.

Story #2: Back before he was a PR (so somewhere between 2007 and 2009), he was pretty much living with me in Canada as a visitor, working remotely and then traveling for work. Once when we were both returning to Canada together from an international (non US) destination, he got pulled into secondary and asked about how much time he was spending in Canada. The CBSA officer then read out ALL of his travel in and out of Canada for the last six months (or maybe eight months?). This included both trips to the US and also other countries (he had quite a number). They let him in. But we were surprised they had access to all of these details.

Anyway - I do think Amercians get a huge break and are allowed in / not questioned on RO where others would be. But those are my two stories.

 

[armoured]

Interesting and clearly very valuable information for me, as I am needing to renew my expired PRC. I figured that, per the instructions on IMM5444E, allowing CBSA to provide travel data directly to IIRC, was supposed to be the `easiest' option. I still haven't found concrete information as to whether or not a U.S. Citizen exiting Canada is being documented/recorded (at least by air). Even if they are (now), my last exit from Canada was ~ on, or before, Feb 2020 (and would have been a day trip), with my Canadian spouse, across a land border in our personal vehicle. Prior to that it would have been in Nov 2019 (14 days abroad). Yes, I should have kept a proper Travel Journal, but the fact that all of my limited exits from Canada over the last 5 years, [NO exits from March 2020 to present, thanks to the `Twilight Zone' chapter of life that we've all endured], had been brief (no longer than ~20 days per year), combined with that every one of those days outside Canada was when traveling with my Canadian spouse, confirms (at least to me) that I have met the R.O.. Since it probably isn't enough, in and of itself, to convince IIRC, I probably need to look for supporting evidence.

Being a U.S. citizen, it seems that it's remotely possible, though perhaps somewhat unlikely, that IIRC will be able to access/retrieve my complete travel history (exits from Canada) from CBSA to assess my R.O.. Even if my logic is skewed, I may be `screwed' if I cannot obtain this information from my (broken) crystal ball. As mentioned, I have not traveled often over the past 5 years but would not be confident in completing the Travel History based on `best guesses'.

Do you recommend that I order my travel history directly from CBSA, even though all indicators say that for PRC renewal, it is NOT needed, as long as authorization is given for that when filling the IMM5444E? Perhaps U.S. Citizens should in fact request this, since exit data may or may not be available for him/her/them? Further, since the applicant has to write `something' in the Travel History section, would writing "Please see the CBSA entry/exit data that I have give you permission to obtain", suffice? Since the IIRC would be requesting the travel history from CBSA AFTER the application has been submitted and received...how otherwise would the applicant provide travel info?

To add to the angst, we are hoping/planning to travel abroad later this year. I have concerns that if I cannot resolve/receive the PRC renewal in time, and have to travel on my U.S. Passport alone, saying nothing about PR to the airline(s), how CBSA would evaluate my R.O. when presenting myself at Primary at our home airport.

Thank you.

First, you SHOULD be able to board a flight to Canada with US passport without PR card/PRTD. Check with your airline just in case. Triple-check all the covid stuff.

As for renewing the PR card: I echo what @dpenabill wrote about (but with less paranoia)).

Apply soon, check the boxes that give them access to CBSA and CRA records, and try AS BEST YOU CAN to give them exact dates. Include a short letter of explanation that your dates are not exact as you would like but you are quite sure that you are well in excess because in the last few years you've only left for a few weeks a year.

I think it will help if they see that your exit/entry dates are at least CLOSE to the dates that make sense (like if you say you left for three weeks around new year, they're less likely to find it odd if your dec 20/jan 12 holiday was actually dec 22/jan 15), particularly if no trips left out.

Again as dpenabill said: if it's dead clear that since the start of covid you've been in Canada for ~900 days, and everything else looks normal, they're probably not going to spend a lot of time digging into exact dates from four-five years ago.

Good luck. While you're at it though, may just want to apply for citizenship and not deal with renewals of PR card again.

 

[armoured]

Anyway - I do think Amercians get a huge break and are allowed in / not questioned on RO where others would be. But those are my two stories.

If he travelled as much as you say, only those two cases coming up are a) a sign that yeah, they're a bit less strict, and b) possibly because they can verify so much anyway.

 

[scylla]

First, you SHOULD be able to board a flight to Canada with US passport without PR card/PRTD. Check with your airline just in case. Triple-check all the covid stuff.

I have a third story!

Back when my husband was just a PR, we were flying back to Toronto from South Korea and my husband was almost denied boarding at Incheon because he couldn't find his PR card and then wouldn't let him board with just his US passport. They demanded to see a valid PR card because hsi journey was ending in Canada. Luckily he found it in his backpack and they let us board.