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How does CBSA know how many days you were out of Canada?

Ponga

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But here again, that seems so obvious I cannot help wondering if there is something else at play, since otherwise it is hard to grasp why you have concerns. (Yeah, some people tend to be more cautious than others, count me in, but they are usually the sort who keep sufficient records to easily populate the PR card application travel history.)
Thank you, again. I'm just overly concerned that if I can't even guess the hand full of trips that my spouse and I have taken within the last 5 years, in terms of dates, that could be enough for the IIRC person that's assessing my PRC renewal to say bad words and toss my application aside. LOL! Perhaps I could coax my Canadian spouse to request exit/entry data and I could then determine what my exit/entry dates were, since we've traveled together. I do want to renew my PRC, to minimize any potential issues with commercial carriers. I had just assumed (yes, I said it) that with the Beyond the Border initiative and the option for the IIRC to get data directly from the CBSA (if authorized by the applicant), it would suffice...even for U.S. citizens. If Google is correct, in that U.S. citizens exit data (air) has been captured since ~June of 2020, that's probably going to help with deflating my concerns. I have lived exclusively in Canada since becoming a PR. Full stop.


Thanks also to scylla and armoured!
 
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armoured

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Perhaps I could coax my Canadian spouse to request exit/entry data and I could then determine what my exit/entry dates were, since we've traveled together.
Credit card records - much more likely to be able to conveniently find dates you were somewhere abroad.
 

Ponga

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Credit card records - much more likely to be able to conveniently find dates you were somewhere abroad.
Great idea, but...I called CBSA and was told that I really should defer any travel until I receive the renewed PRC...even if travelling on a U.S. Passport (by air). He was equally perplexed why the option for CIC to request traveller data directly from CBSA is in any way helpful to an applicant, needing to provide the information BEFORE the application is received by CIC. He strongly advised that I make the ATIP request now, circumventing the instructions on the IMM5444E form. *shrug*
 
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armoured

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Great idea, but...I called CBSA and was told that I really should defer any travel until I receive the renewed PRC...even if travelling on a U.S. Passport (by air). He was equally perplexed why the option for CIC to request traveller data directly from CBSA is in any way helpful to an applicant, needing to provide the information BEFORE the application is received by CIC. He strongly advised that I make the ATIP request now, circumventing the instructions on the IMM5444E form. *shrug*
I've perhaps lost the thread of what you've brought up before, my suggestion was just that you could figure out your travel history by looking up your own credit card records.

The option for IRCC to get data direct from CBSA allows them to check the records directly, with your permission. (I belive they may be able to access otherwise but more paperwork for them)

Honestly, sounds to me like your CBSa chap didn't know what he was talking about - but I'm not clear in what context he said that about travelling (lots of people travel without them, even if not ideal). Sure, go ahead and make the ATIP request, but if you've followed this thread, you cannot count on the information from any one source being complete.
 

Ponga

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I've perhaps lost the thread of what you've brought up before, my suggestion was just that you could figure out your travel history by looking up your own credit card records.

The option for IRCC to get data direct from CBSA allows them to check the records directly, with your permission. (I belive they may be able to access otherwise but more paperwork for them)

Honestly, sounds to me like your CBSa chap didn't know what he was talking about - but I'm not clear in what context he said that about travelling (lots of people travel without them, even if not ideal). Sure, go ahead and make the ATIP request, but if you've followed this thread, you cannot count on the information from any one source being complete.
I am tending to agree with your assessment of the agent that I spoke with. He was very friendly and perhaps a tad empathetic, but was all but convinced that the problem would be with the officer at Primary, since I can't use my U.S. Passport to re-enter Canada as a `visitor', if I'm a PR of Canada. It would depend on what the officer wanted to do, which would not be fair to my spouse...wondering if only one of us would be `going home' after a very long flight.

In terms of the ATIP Travel History report being suspect, or incomplete...at least I would be providing consistent [identical] information that IRCC would also receive from CBSA. In theory?

I can certainly find the travel dates from our travels flying from, then back, to Canada by going through our old records. It's the possibility of missing one of the day trips across the border in our personal vehicle that I really have no way of safeguarding against...at least from memory.

Perhaps, unlike applying for Canadian Citizenship where it DOES seem to be a requirement to have zero errors in travel dates, the PRC renewal may not be as stringent, as long as the person reviewing the application is convinced that the >730 days within Canada threshold has indeed been met.

EDIT: [thinking ahead to the next PRC renewal in 5 years]
I wonder how much credence a personal `Travel Journal' will lend for a U.S. Citizen/ Canadian PR, if exit data is sporadically available to IRCC when they need travel history evidence; especially if it differs from whatever CBSA is able to produce to them?
 
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armoured

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I am tending to agree with your assessment of the agent that I spoke with. He was very friendly and perhaps a tad empathetic, but was all but convinced that the problem would be with the officer at Primary, since I can't use my U.S. Passport to re-enter Canada as a `visitor', if I'm a PR of Canada. It would depend on what the officer wanted to do, which would not be fair to my spouse...wondering if only one of us would be `going home' after a very long flight.
Does not know what he's talking about. The issue (discussed much here) is whether US passport holders can board planes to Canada without valid PR cards (answer is usually yes, some issues came up during covid travel restrictions, rare or at least infrequent issues with uninformed airlines).

But AT border: although govt will always tell you to have proper identification, the law is that they SHALL admit you (if satisfied you are a PR). And an expired PR card is perfectly fine for that. (This is why it works for so many who can travel through USA to just get to a land border...)

So your person doesn't seem to understand: you get to the passport officer and say you are entering as a PR - period.

In terms of the ATIP Travel History report being suspect, or incomplete...at least I would be providing consistent [identical] information that IRCC would also receive from CBSA. In theory?
Yes, if the info you have coincides eg~100% with CBSA records, that helps. You'd have to decide for yourself whether it's worth waiting the extra time to get that back and how much it will improve your travel history.

I can certainly find the travel dates from our travels flying from, then back, to Canada by going through our old records. It's the possibility missing one of the trips across the border in our personal vehicle that I really have no way of safeguarding against...at least from memory.

Perhaps, unlike applying for Canadian Citizenship where it DOES seem to be a requirement to have zero errors in travel dates, the PRC renewal may not be as stringent, as long as the person reviewing the application is convinced that the >730 days within Canada threshold has indeed been met.
I repeat, I think, what I've said before: be as complete as you can. If you really think you must, include a letter of explanation (eg not sure we didn't make a day trip to USA in there...).

While they can be stringent in both cases, there are (I beleive) other factors that are more likely to influence, incl - especially - credibility. In other words, it's worse if they think you're a liar than if they think you might have a couple of (non-material) days wrong.
 
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dpenabill

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. . . convinced that the problem would be with the officer at Primary, since I can't use my U.S. Passport to re-enter Canada as a `visitor', if I'm a PR of Canada. It would depend on what the officer wanted to do, which would not be fair to my spouse...wondering if only one of us would be `going home' after a very long flight.
Overall I concur in remarks made by @armoured above. . . . well, I'll reserve judgment as to the referenced agent's state of knowledge.

Otherwise, frankly, it seems much ado about nothing here.

Stuff happens, so we see an occasional incident reported like that reported by @scylla in regards to trouble boarding a flight from Korea to the U.S. But generally, per the regulations, the rules, the policies and practices, a Canadian PR should and almost always will be allowed to board a flight to Canada from abroad if they present a U.S. passport. No PR card necessary. Not complicated . . . unless there are other matters in play, ranging from pandemic response measures to individual security issues, with all sorts of potential mistakes possible (I was once denied boarding a domestic flight erroneously, and the only compensation was an apology and a better seat on a flight the next day).

Apart from the stuff happens stuff . . . for a PR living in Canada for well over two years, and in Canada a lot before that, as noted before "there should be NO concern at all about relying on a U.S. passport when traveling and returning to Canada," AND similarly "in regards to making the application for a new PR card."

Further, apart from the stuff happens stuff . . .

To be clear, a Canadian Permanent Resident will NOT and cannot enter Canada as a "visitor," regardless which passport the PR carries or presents to border officials. EVEN IF the PIL (Primary Inspection Line) officer waives a U.S. citizen and Canadian PR through more or less "as a visitor," based on presentation of a U.S. passport, that is in error or at least not recognizing the American traveler is also a Canadian PR, and it does not have any effect on the status the PR has upon entering Canada. PRs are Canadians, not Foreign Nationals, and ONLY FNs can enter Canada as a visitor.

How or why such an error occurred can be a subject worth addressing. Or, more to the point, what the traveler says to the PIL officer can matter. It is one thing to present a U.S. passport as identification to a border official and another to make representations concealing the fact that one is a Canadian PR. Several years ago, during the Harper administration, some serious teeth were added to provisions governing making misrepresentations in the process of applying for entry into Canada. Misrepresentation by omission is a real thing. Misrepresentation attendant an application to enter Canada is grounds for finding a PR inadmissible (potentially leading to loss of PR status), despite the fact that as a PR the individual is statutorily entitled to enter Canada. That is, despite a right to enter Canada, a PR does not have a right to make misrepresentations in the course of being examined when entering Canada, and again, misrepresentation by omission is real.

A PR just presenting a U.S. passport without saying more is NOT at all, nowhere near at all likely to trigger insinuations let alone accusations of misrepresentation. It is unlikely, even, if the PR explicitly says he is a U.S. citizen in response to a question about nationality or where he is from, and presents the U.S. passport, with no mention he is actually also a Canadian. And if waived through, no problem. As much as the officer may believe she waived a U.S. citizen into Canada as a "visitor," that individual is a PR, a Canadian, not eligible to enter Canada as a visitor. And thus enters and is in Canada as a PR.

If there is a problem, it's more likely to arise when a PIL officer scans the passport and sees the traveler is a Canadian. Even then, odds are it is no big deal, none at all, and the PIL officer may even still just waive the traveler, the PR through (which again would not be as a "visitor," but as a PR). At worst, typically, there might be a question or two to clarify the traveler's status. The manner of border questioning varies widely, deliberately so (largely to avoid predictability and reduce the extent to which travelers can rely on prepared scripts), but the gist of such exchanges is readily apparent and not complicated. Which brings this to one of the last observations by @armoured . . . regarding credibility . . . or more to the point, as @armoured not so delicately framed things (albeit in reference to reporting travel history): "it's worse if they think you're a liar." Yep. Even then, though, the worst from the PIL exchange is a referral to Secondary and plenty of opportunity in Secondary to be open and honest. For PRs it is not a gotcha-game . . . the extent of leniency in the enforcement of the rules governing PRs might seem rather remarkable if one overlooks that Canadians generally trust Canadians, and border officials like IRCC officials recognize PRs to be Canadians.

But of course if and when a PR has clearly crossed the line, well, the rules govern. Of course. And again, as @armoured not so delicately framed things: "it's worse if they think you're a liar." Yep. Yep. Yep.

But credibility can be significantly compromised, and that can hurt, even if there is no suspicion of deliberate misrepresentation, overtly or by omission. Obviously, if officers perceive willful deception or even evasion, that not only invites more questions but escalates the degree if not the severity of scrutiny. However, credibility is not just about lying, but about the extent to which an individual is seen as an unreliable reporter of facts.

Bringing this to the citizenship application context versus PR card renewal. Everyone makes mistakes. IRCC and CBSA are well aware of and understand the dynamics at play. They adjust and adapt and accommodate. More so than many in a forum like this will allow them credit. Again, they are not about playing gotcha-games. So if the PR makes a reasonable effort to be complete and accurate, and otherwise acknowledges what is estimated, within a reasonable range, even in the context of a citizenship application some discrepancies are not at all problematic. Context matters.

. . . . unlike applying for Canadian Citizenship where it DOES seem to be a requirement to have zero errors in travel dates . . .
Not really. It is more important in the context of a citizenship application, but that is in large part for two big reasons: that is about granting a very important thing, citizenship, and the physical present requirement is absolute.

But even in that context, if the applicant is credible, and if there is a sufficient margin of presence to override any mistakes, and there is no reason to apprehend the applicant cannot be relied upon to be a generally reliable reporter, some mistakes, some discrepancies, will not hurt . . . we have seen cases where applicants missed reporting trips of three weeks or so, but had a margin, and during their interview acknowledged the mistake, the omission, believably so, no problem.

. . . . I wonder how much credence a personal `Travel Journal' will lend for a U.S. Citizen/ Canadian PR, if exit data is sporadically available to IRCC when they need travel history evidence; especially if it differs from whatever CBSA is able to produce to them?
The point of keeping a travel journal is to accurately and completely report all trips, all exits, all entries. Obviously, if there is a discrepancy between the PR's travel journal and other reliable evidence, yeah, that's not good. Not only is the PR at the least not an entirely reliable reporter of facts, but the PR is not even a reliable record-keeper.

Again . . . some discrepancies are common and not at all problematic. But of course discrepancies are a prime indicator of an applicant's failure to be a reliable reporter . . . in which case "why" can lurch into play as much as how big the discrepancy is.
 
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Ponga

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I have a third story!

Back when my husband was just a PR, we were flying back to Toronto from South Korea and my husband was almost denied boarding at Incheon because he couldn't find his PR card and then wouldn't let him board with just his US passport. They demanded to see a valid PR card because hsi journey was ending in Canada. Luckily he found it in his backpack and they let us board.
Curious to know how/why the airline even knew that he was a PR of Canada? Couldn't he have traveled on his U.S. passport without disclosing to the airline that he was a PR of Canada?
 

scylla

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Curious to know how/why the airline even knew that he was a PR of Canada? Couldn't he have traveled on his U.S. passport without disclosing to the airline that he was a PR of Canada?
He only showed his US passport and didn't mention he was a PR. Since our flight with them was ending in Canada (i.e. this was the return leg of the journey), they asked for either evidence of onward travel to the US or evidence that he is authorized to be living in Canada (e.g. work permit, study permit, PR). They said he needed to provide one of these to be allowed to board. He then mentioned that he was a PR and then had trouble locating the actual card to prove his card was valid.
 

Ponga

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He only showed his US passport and didn't mention he was a PR. Since our flight with them was ending in Canada (i.e. this was the return leg of the journey), they asked for either evidence of onward travel to the US or evidence that he is authorized to be living in Canada (e.g. work permit, study permit, PR). They said he needed to provide one of these to be allowed to board. He then mentioned that he was a PR and then had trouble locating the actual card to prove his card was valid.
But, why would anyone (especially those flying with a U.S. passport) need to provide evidence that they are allowed to `live' in Canada, just because they are traveling? Why do airlines have to imply that a U.S. citizen is not `visiting' Canada, just because their flight terminates at the Canadian airport? I understand that they are cautious because in the event that a traveler is refused entry into Canada, the airline could be on the hook for returning the traveler to where the flight originated, but...seems a little over the top. Regardless, glad he was able to find his PRC to appease the airline!
 

scylla

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But, why would anyone (especially those flying with a U.S. passport) need to provide evidence that they are allowed to `live' in Canada, just because they are traveling? Why do airlines have to imply that a U.S. citizen is not `visiting' Canada, just because their flight terminates at the Canadian airport? I understand that they are cautious because in the event that a traveler is refused entry into Canada, the airline could be on the hook for returning the traveler to where the flight originated, but...seems a little over the top. Regardless, glad he was able to find his PRC to appease the airline!
It's basically as you said. The airline doesn't want to be on the hook to pay for a return flight if someone is denied entry. Anyway, can't comment on your other questions. Just sharing our experience.
 

Ponga

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The point of keeping a travel journal is to accurately and completely report all trips, all exits, all entries. Obviously, if there is a discrepancy between the PR's travel journal and other reliable evidence, yeah, that's not good. Not only is the PR at the least not an entirely reliable reporter of facts, but the PR is not even a reliable record-keeper.

Again . . . some discrepancies are common and not at all problematic. But of course discrepancies are a prime indicator of an applicant's failure to be a reliable reporter . . . in which case "why" can lurch into play as much as how big the discrepancy is.
It really is a case of...wait for it...`assuming' that CBSA would have recorded/captured all data for a U.S. citizen when entering AND exiting Canada (since data is shared with/from CBP) by whatever mode of transportation s/he used. The Beyond the Border program was to have captured all entry/exit (by land as of 2019) and by air as of June 2020, but it appears that that may not have worked out as planned. Again, I understand, albeit a bit latter than I should, that the onus is on the traveler to record their own travel history. I do have to order my Travel History via an ATIP request, just to know that I've been as accurate as possible.

Thanks.
 

armoured

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He only showed his US passport and didn't mention he was a PR. Since our flight with them was ending in Canada (i.e. this was the return leg of the journey), they asked for either evidence of onward travel to the US or evidence that he is authorized to be living in Canada (e.g. work permit, study permit, PR). They said he needed to provide one of these to be allowed to board. He then mentioned that he was a PR and then had trouble locating the actual card to prove his card was valid.
Was this during the pandemic? If not, really weird.
 

scylla

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armoured

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It really is a case of...wait for it...`assuming' that CBSA would have recorded/captured all data for a U.S. citizen when entering AND exiting Canada (since data is shared with/from CBP) by whatever mode of transportation s/he used. The Beyond the Border program was to have captured all entry/exit (by land as of 2019) and by air as of June 2020, but it appears that that may not have worked out as planned. Again, I understand, albeit a bit latter than I should, that the onus is on the traveler to record their own travel history. I do have to order my Travel History via an ATIP request, just to know that I've been as accurate as possible.
Again, a thing that I believe was covered elsewhere in this thread (but at least another) - when you make a request to one agency (eg IRCC or CBSA), the request may or may not include information that the agency can get access to but that it does not 'own' - meaning usually information created/owned by some other agency.

Upshot: you may not get all records of entries and exits from CBSA - just not certain.

So yes, you need to keep your own history.