You have an easy (albeit expensive) back up plan. If you are denied boarding to fly to Canada (agreed the chances are extremely extremely low), then you simply buy a ticket from Mexico to the US city closest to the Canadian border where you live and then re-enter Canada by land as a PR.
How does CBSA know how many days you were out of Canada?
- Thread starter mastersboy
- Start date
Thanks, Armoured. I have called a couple of different airlines that we would likely be using and the consensus was the same; nothing other than a U.S. passport is usually needed.
If I decide to `roll the dice', I will be taking my expired PRC as primary proof that I am a PR. I just wish that one of two things would happen:
1. The information that is found in various CBSA documents, such as the excerpts below from op10, could be expanded upon, if it does NOT include a person with a U.S. passport returning to Canada by a commercial carrier:
From Section 5.3
Since the coming into force of R259(a) and R259(e) in December 2003, a PR card or PRTD is required for return travel to Canada by a commercial carrier.
Versus this, from enf23, Section 7.8
Officers must remain cognizant of the fact that the Act gives permanent residents of Canada the right to enter Canada at a port of entry once it is established that a person is a permanent resident, regardless of non-compliance with the residency obligation in A28 or the presence of other grounds of inadmissibility.
It certainly seems plausible that an expired PRC would suffice as proof that the status, unless otherwise found to be false, is in fact still valid.
2. I could stop `picking' at this and just get back to life as I knew it, before the PRC renewal demons started hovering all around my brain! LOL!
If I decide to `roll the dice', I will be taking my expired PRC as primary proof that I am a PR. I just wish that one of two things would happen:
1. The information that is found in various CBSA documents, such as the excerpts below from op10, could be expanded upon, if it does NOT include a person with a U.S. passport returning to Canada by a commercial carrier:
From Section 5.3
Since the coming into force of R259(a) and R259(e) in December 2003, a PR card or PRTD is required for return travel to Canada by a commercial carrier.
Versus this, from enf23, Section 7.8
Officers must remain cognizant of the fact that the Act gives permanent residents of Canada the right to enter Canada at a port of entry once it is established that a person is a permanent resident, regardless of non-compliance with the residency obligation in A28 or the presence of other grounds of inadmissibility.
It certainly seems plausible that an expired PRC would suffice as proof that the status, unless otherwise found to be false, is in fact still valid.
2. I could stop `picking' at this and just get back to life as I knew it, before the PRC renewal demons started hovering all around my brain! LOL!
I actually thought of that as well, but we are no longer near a land border; we're on an island. LOL!
It's still doable. You'd just hop on another flight within Canada to get home (after you cross the border).
Govt people (like the cbsa you called) will always tell you first and foremost what is recommended.
And the 'usually' - like with someone having an ETA or a visa - is always emphasized because eg the border officers CAN deny entry (and I suspect the airlines' small print says something similar).
Sorry but I'm too lazy to parse the various documents here for you; I believe you're not quoting from the part that applies to US citizens but consider we've already shown this here extensively.
You're overthinking. The part I bolded is the operational bit. (Note, I'm not sure that 'the right' as stated is precisely correct, and there are distinctions between eg charter rights vs rights granted by statute, but let's agree to leave the scrap over that stuff to the lawyers).
Yes, you are overthinking it. Everyone is telling you that. There is nowhere, no source, nothing that will tell you that you are 'guaranteed' to not have problems and they will definitely let you in, etc. That doesn't mean, in practical terms, that it's a serious risk.
I quote @scylla from above: "If you are denied boarding to fly to Canada (agreed the chances are extremely extremely low)". Bold for emphasis.
But wait...there's more! I know, I know...who cares?!
Seems like the rules are different for a Lawful PR of the U.S. to enter Canada (via commercial carrier or transporter) with an expired Green Card.
Source: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#us-citizens
Canadian permanent residents
Canadian permanent residents need a valid permanent resident card or permanent resident travel document.
U.S. citizens
U.S. citizens must carry proper identification such as a valid U.S. passport.
Lawful permanent residents of the U.S.
As of April 26, 2022, lawful permanent residents of the United States must show these documents for all methods of travel to Canada:
Features
Complete list of acceptable status documents for lawful permanent residents of the U.S.
You need an official proof of status as a lawful permanent resident of the U.S., such as one of the following:
As an aside:
Source- https://www.uscis.gov/forms/all-forms/form-i-797c-notice-of-action
Does the Form I-797C Grant any Specific Immigration Benefits?
USCIS recognizes that some state, local, public, or private benefit granting agencies may accept Form I-797C as collateral evidence for awarding a benefit they administer. USCIS reminds those agencies that Form I-797C is only a receipt proving an applicant has submitted a benefit request; USCIS has not determined whether that applicant is eligible for an immigration benefit.
So, a person that has received confirmation that their application to renew their Green Card has been received by USCIS can still use their expired Green Card to enter Canada, along with a valid passport of course, via a commercial carrier, even though the [AOR] does not confirm that their R.O. (whatever they are) have been met. Hmmm...guess me having AOR of a renewal application with me would be useless, since that obviously would not prove R.O. compliance. I still feel the expired card is sufficient; just wanted to explore the differences in how GC holders are assessed in a similar situation.
I suspect that most of the language pertains to the carrier, but seeing things like: "As of April 26, 2022, lawful permanent residents of the United States must show these documents for all methods of travel to Canada, I can't help but wonder why this isn't reciprocal.
Oh I know; because it's not!
Seems like the rules are different for a Lawful PR of the U.S. to enter Canada (via commercial carrier or transporter) with an expired Green Card.
Source: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#us-citizens
Canadian permanent residents
Canadian permanent residents need a valid permanent resident card or permanent resident travel document.
U.S. citizens
U.S. citizens must carry proper identification such as a valid U.S. passport.
Lawful permanent residents of the U.S.
As of April 26, 2022, lawful permanent residents of the United States must show these documents for all methods of travel to Canada:
- a valid passport from their country of nationality (or an equivalent acceptable travel document) and
- a valid green card (or equivalent valid proof of status in the United States)
Features
Complete list of acceptable status documents for lawful permanent residents of the U.S.
You need an official proof of status as a lawful permanent resident of the U.S., such as one of the following:
- valid permanent resident card (Form I-551)
- foreign passport with an unexpired temporary I-551 stamp (also known as an Alien Documentation, Identification and Telecommunication [ADIT] stamp)
- foreign passport with a temporary I-551 printed notation (“Upon endorsement serves as temporary I-551 evidencing permanent residence for 1 year”) on a machine-readable immigrant visa upon endorsement with a U.S. Customs and Border Protection admission stamp
- expired permanent resident card (Form I-551) with Form I-797 (Notice of Action) for pending Form I-751 (Petition to Remove Conditions on Residence) or Form I-829 (Petition by Investor to Remove Conditions on Permanent Resident Status)
- expired permanent resident card (Form I-551) with Form I-797 (Notice of Action) for pending Form I-90 (Application to Replace Permanent Resident Card [Green Card])
- valid re-entry permit (Form I-327)
- Form I-94 with an unexpired temporary I-551 stamp (ADIT stamp) and a passport-style photo
As an aside:
Source- https://www.uscis.gov/forms/all-forms/form-i-797c-notice-of-action
Does the Form I-797C Grant any Specific Immigration Benefits?
USCIS recognizes that some state, local, public, or private benefit granting agencies may accept Form I-797C as collateral evidence for awarding a benefit they administer. USCIS reminds those agencies that Form I-797C is only a receipt proving an applicant has submitted a benefit request; USCIS has not determined whether that applicant is eligible for an immigration benefit.
So, a person that has received confirmation that their application to renew their Green Card has been received by USCIS can still use their expired Green Card to enter Canada, along with a valid passport of course, via a commercial carrier, even though the [AOR] does not confirm that their R.O. (whatever they are) have been met. Hmmm...guess me having AOR of a renewal application with me would be useless, since that obviously would not prove R.O. compliance. I still feel the expired card is sufficient; just wanted to explore the differences in how GC holders are assessed in a similar situation.
I suspect that most of the language pertains to the carrier, but seeing things like: "As of April 26, 2022, lawful permanent residents of the United States must show these documents for all methods of travel to Canada, I can't help but wonder why this isn't reciprocal.
Oh I know; because it's not!
Please stop, you're not a US PR, you're a Canadian PR and US citizen. That part is not relevant for you - no need to check why and how it works.But wait...there's more! I know, I know...who cares?!
Seems like the rules are different for a Lawful PR of the U.S. to enter Canada (via commercial carrier or transporter) with an expired Green Card.
Only reason I'm responding here is that one link there led to this:
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/td-dv-eng.html
Where we find this text:
"Acceptable documents to denote identity and citizenship
Upon arrival at a Canadian port of entry, travellers must satisfy a CBSA border services officer (BSO) that they meet the requirements for entry into Canada. For Canadian citizens, permanent residents and persons registered under the Indian Act, this can be done through questioning and through verifying documentation such as..."
I have bolded this part and then extra-emphasis on 'this can be done through questioning and documents "such as..."'.
"Such as" is really weird for government - to me this is clear and jumps out from the page. They're telling the reader that they really, really want you to carry the recommended documentation (passport, birth certificate, PR card, citizenship card) - BUT nowhere do they outright say that this is a complete list nor that only these documents are accepted. Believe me, if they could state outright that at a port of entry, ONLY those documents are acceptable, they would.
Because they cannot make such an assertion - that's not what the law says. (Ok, gratned, they do put the onus on the traveller to 'satisfy the CBSA officer that they meet the requirements.' But they do not specify how exactly this must be done.)
Side note, they don't actually specify that any of the specific document types they mention must be current / valid / not expired, either.
Wuh? I am NOT a U.S. PR?!? LOL!
I completely understand and acknowledge that I am NOT a U.S. PR and was merely questioning why CBSA treats Canadian PRs differently if they have an expired PR card, even with an AOR of a renewal application from within Canada.
Regarding having a valid PR card, I agree that the language, at best, is cloudy. However, for travel back to Canada, they do require a valid card.
[source]: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-card/understand-pr-status.html
Permanent residents (PRs) of Canada must carry and present their valid PR card or permanent resident travel document (PRTD) when boarding a flight to Canada, or travelling to Canada on any other commercial carrier. If you do not carry your PR card or PRTD, you may not be able to board your flight, train, bus or boat to Canada.
It is your responsibility to ensure that your PR card is still valid when you return from travel outside Canada, and to apply for a new PR card when your current card expires. If your PR card expires, it does not mean you have lost permanent resident status.
This would seem to imply that the Canadian PR is obligated (more like mandated) to disclose to the commercial carrier/transporter that they are a PR of Canada...which is NOT a requirement of the airlines. Especially for those with a U.S. passport. Again, it's the incompleteness/vagueness of statements like that that only add to the confusion at times. Seems like "must carry and present" should be "are advised to carry", or similar.
Look, all I can say is that this page
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#us-citizens
says this:
U.S. citizens must carry proper identification such as a valid U.S. passport.
Yes, it also says that PRs must carry a PR card or a PR travel document to board a plane, and it does not explain the 'conflict' between those two statements.
Because there isn't one! Confirmed many times in real life!
The US citizen can board a plane as a citizen of the US. Period. No need to inquire further. You don't need to qualify on more than one basis - one alone is enough.
(For PR-citizens of visa waiver countries, they cannot get the ETA that would otherwise allow them to enter on that basis. They only have one route to qualify to board a plane - showing their PR card or PRTD.)
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#us-citizens
says this:
U.S. citizens must carry proper identification such as a valid U.S. passport.
Yes, it also says that PRs must carry a PR card or a PR travel document to board a plane, and it does not explain the 'conflict' between those two statements.
Because there isn't one! Confirmed many times in real life!
The US citizen can board a plane as a citizen of the US. Period. No need to inquire further. You don't need to qualify on more than one basis - one alone is enough.
(For PR-citizens of visa waiver countries, they cannot get the ETA that would otherwise allow them to enter on that basis. They only have one route to qualify to board a plane - showing their PR card or PRTD.)
Did anyone suggest much ado about nothing? Yeah, I did.
Did anyone acknowledge that stuff happens? Yeah, I hope everyone recognizes that sometimes stuff happens.
Travel entails risks. That includes just going across town. Hell, just crossing any busy street involves some risks.
Foreign travel involves more risks, and depending on destinations and means and personal factors, the nature and scope of the risks vary and can vary by a lot. Gone there, got tangled there, more than a few times, way too many tales to tell here (I am old and, well, been around), and moreover with only a couple exceptions (like the one time border officials, not Canadian, got it in their head, for someone unknown unfounded reason, that the passport I presented was not really mine, and yeah that got ugly before it got resolved, and there too all I got for the trouble, which included being detained for a time, was an apology), LIKE HERE, like where this discussion has devolved, having rather little relevance to national/immigration status.
So let's be clear, this is NOT complicated, not about "gambling;" it is simple, like two plus three equals five, just about that simple: Again, and again, apart from the stuff happens stuff . . . for a PR living in Canada for well over two years, and in Canada a lot before that, as noted before "there should be NO concern at all about relying on a U.S. passport when traveling abroad and returning to Canada," AND similarly "in regards to making the application for a new PR card."
I echo earlier remarks by @armoured in regards to the ArriveCAN app. That is a separate and NOT a specifically PR issue. If the ArriveCAN app requirements are a problem, that's a problem. It would be the same for any U.S. citizen who is a Canadian citizen, as it is for a Canadian PR or for someone with Temporary Resident status in Canada.
But for purposes of the required approval for boarding a flight to Canada from abroad based on the presentation of certain documents showing authorization to enter Canada, presentation of a U.S. passport meets those requirements even if the traveler is also a Canadian PR. No nuances. No complications. No caveats.
And for purposes of how things go at the Port-of-Entry (whatever means by which the traveler reaches and is at the PoE), in regards to ascertaining whether the traveler has authorization to enter Canada, a Canadian PR has a statutory "right" to enter Canada REGARDLESS of the manner and means employed in establishing that the traveler has Canadian PR status. Since a PR carrying a U.S. passport is almost certain, just about absolutely certain, can be readily identified in GCMS as an individual with Canadian PR status, there is no significant risk, almost none at all, that border officials would so much as hesitate recognizing the traveler to be a Canadian PR and ENTITLED to enter Canada.
There can be collateral matters, ranging from customs' issues to pandemic border control measures, which have an impact, ranging from arrest and detention for certain kinds of smuggling, to fines or quarantines. But none of that is about the traveler's PR status as such.
Otherwise: yes, there is a big difference between recognized fundamental rights, including those enumerated in the Charter of Rights in particular, and "statutory rights," often referred to as "privileges." That's a separate matter of no import in the context here . . . main difference has to do with when, why, and how such "rights" can be limited or denied, recognizing that even Charter enumerated rights are subject to limitations and even being denied . . . lot of Canadian citizens incarcerated in Canadian jails and prisons despite their Charter mobility rights . . . the government's burden to establish need much higher when it is comes to limiting or denying a fundamental right.
Did anyone acknowledge that stuff happens? Yeah, I hope everyone recognizes that sometimes stuff happens.
Travel entails risks. That includes just going across town. Hell, just crossing any busy street involves some risks.
Foreign travel involves more risks, and depending on destinations and means and personal factors, the nature and scope of the risks vary and can vary by a lot. Gone there, got tangled there, more than a few times, way too many tales to tell here (I am old and, well, been around), and moreover with only a couple exceptions (like the one time border officials, not Canadian, got it in their head, for someone unknown unfounded reason, that the passport I presented was not really mine, and yeah that got ugly before it got resolved, and there too all I got for the trouble, which included being detained for a time, was an apology), LIKE HERE, like where this discussion has devolved, having rather little relevance to national/immigration status.
So let's be clear, this is NOT complicated, not about "gambling;" it is simple, like two plus three equals five, just about that simple: Again, and again, apart from the stuff happens stuff . . . for a PR living in Canada for well over two years, and in Canada a lot before that, as noted before "there should be NO concern at all about relying on a U.S. passport when traveling abroad and returning to Canada," AND similarly "in regards to making the application for a new PR card."
I echo earlier remarks by @armoured in regards to the ArriveCAN app. That is a separate and NOT a specifically PR issue. If the ArriveCAN app requirements are a problem, that's a problem. It would be the same for any U.S. citizen who is a Canadian citizen, as it is for a Canadian PR or for someone with Temporary Resident status in Canada.
But for purposes of the required approval for boarding a flight to Canada from abroad based on the presentation of certain documents showing authorization to enter Canada, presentation of a U.S. passport meets those requirements even if the traveler is also a Canadian PR. No nuances. No complications. No caveats.
And for purposes of how things go at the Port-of-Entry (whatever means by which the traveler reaches and is at the PoE), in regards to ascertaining whether the traveler has authorization to enter Canada, a Canadian PR has a statutory "right" to enter Canada REGARDLESS of the manner and means employed in establishing that the traveler has Canadian PR status. Since a PR carrying a U.S. passport is almost certain, just about absolutely certain, can be readily identified in GCMS as an individual with Canadian PR status, there is no significant risk, almost none at all, that border officials would so much as hesitate recognizing the traveler to be a Canadian PR and ENTITLED to enter Canada.
There can be collateral matters, ranging from customs' issues to pandemic border control measures, which have an impact, ranging from arrest and detention for certain kinds of smuggling, to fines or quarantines. But none of that is about the traveler's PR status as such.
Otherwise: yes, there is a big difference between recognized fundamental rights, including those enumerated in the Charter of Rights in particular, and "statutory rights," often referred to as "privileges." That's a separate matter of no import in the context here . . . main difference has to do with when, why, and how such "rights" can be limited or denied, recognizing that even Charter enumerated rights are subject to limitations and even being denied . . . lot of Canadian citizens incarcerated in Canadian jails and prisons despite their Charter mobility rights . . . the government's burden to establish need much higher when it is comes to limiting or denying a fundamental right.
Again, I appreciate your vast knowledge and generosity in sharing your views. Truly. It's members like you, Armour, scylla and many others that are truly valued here...especially from other VIP [pfft] members such as myself.
I suspect that, U.S. passport aside, an expired PR card would most certainly prove status, just not compliance, unless the officer finds information to the contrary in their `mysterious' system. I would be surprised if my U.S. passport and PR Card are not linked in GCMS, especially since my PR card is the only document that I've had to present when re-entering Canada, no matter which PoE I'm entering from. Makes perfect sense since I am no longer a visitor when re-entering Canada.
I do understand that the risk of `traveling' on the strength of a U.S. passport to fly to Canada and disembark from a commercial carrier, is all but removed, save for an anomaly with an airline representative that doesn't get it. it is the baffling information that I've received from speaking with CBSA directly regarding inspection at the airport PoE.
Prior to today I had two conversations with two different (officers?) with pretty much the same information (don't travel without a valid Pr card). Today, I spoke with someone in their Tier 2 department who was unable to answer what I thought was a very simple question:
Have phase 4 and 5 of the Beyond the Border Initiative been fully implemented that now track all entry/exits to and from Canada to include Canadian citizens and U.S. citizens? Recall that I'm concerned about missing that/those short, mostly day, trips across the border with my Canadian spouse that I did not document. Since I've never traveled outside of Canada without my Canadian spouse, I have zero days outside of Canada that would subtract from the R.O. number, but I still need to record those trips, obviously.
Phase 4 of the initiative (Feb 2019) was capturing land PoE while phase 5 (June 2020) was to include all manner of travel. I heard crickets for about 10 seconds, followed by "please hold while I look into this." The person returned and said that she wasn't certain.
I explained that the paramount confirmation that I am seeking, is that even without presenting a valid PR card, a PR of Canada cannot be denied entry, even if the officer suspects that the PR is out of compliance of the R.O.(which I am not); the officer must let the PR enter even if the officer plans to file a report for non-compliance. The person in Tier 2 said that this is not true. If an officer has reason to believe that a PR is non-compliant, the officer has the right to deny entry. I then told her that this is a stark contradiction to enf23, sec 7.8 that states that a PR cannot be denied, even if the officer is suspect that the R.O. has not been met. Again...crickets. She finally said something along the lines of "Well, the officer can certainly do that", then suggested I call back tomorrow to speak with a supervisor, as they were all out of the office. ?
Is it Happy Hour yet?!
There is nothing to be gained by wrestling with this further. It is not this complicated. NOT at all.
There is no reason to try explaining the telephone conversations. Something is off. I suspect it is mostly at your end (just your persistence appears to clearly be misguided) or in expecting call centre agents to give an opinion about what will happen in a particular FUTURE or hypothetical situation when that is NOT their role. But no matter, whatever is off in those conversations, that does not change things.
I will note that technically border officials have very broad authority to deny entry to a traveler. It makes sense that a call centre agent will in effect retreat to that position, recognizing that ultimately border officials are the ones making that call (of course there is recourse for errors, and sure, mistakes happen, stuff happens). No need to wander into the weeds about this since a Canadian PR who is also a U.S. citizen, presenting a U.S. passport, and especially if that is accompanied by any documentation of status (expired PR card, CoPR) or even just suggesting status in Canada (Canadian drivers' license, health card), for whom there is no reason to question the traveler's identity, entry will be allowed. Sure there are some what-ifs, so a call centre agent generally must take the most conservative posture, but for purposes of this discussion it should be fair to assume we are not talking about an international war criminal or someone whose actual identity is in question or . . . yeah, there are some what-ifs but there is no indication they are relevant here.
An Addendum, to Clarify . . . what I took for granted, what I thought was generally known and well understood . . . regarding collateral conditions and contingencies. REMEMBER travel into or exiting from a country is subject to that country's policies, laws, regulations, rules, and practices . . . and airlines operating in that country are likewise subject to that country's rules et al . . . and of course who is allowed to board a particular flight is subject to all that PLUS the airline's own policies, rules, and practices, which will be based on all that PLUS any regulations and rules imposed by the destination country.
Canadian rules ONLY affect the latter, and only when Canada is the destination, and have no role, zero, in regards to all the others.
The fact that insofar as a traveler is "approved" for boarding a flight headed to Canada, under CANADIAN regulation, has no control over any of the other requirements or rules that can govern whether a traveler in another country will be allowed to board an international flight there.
I must, respectfully, disagree with your assessment that any conversation misunderstandings is suspected to be mostly at my end. I know what I heard and have disclosed what I heard, here. Further, I do not expect you, or anyone else, to categorize my `persistence' to be misguided. I am admittedly overly concerned. How/why that is considered to be `misguided' is a mystery to me.
Again, I thank you for your help.
Please don't take offence.
But your expectations about what a call centre person can know, and in addition, what a government rep can or be willing to say, are 'misguided' in that you will not get the answer from them you seem to be attempting to extract. They will not say you 'will' be admitted.
As was noted in another post, they will almost always fall back on "you should have the recommended documents." They will almost always fall back on some version of your entry is not guaranteed, because the border agent decides.
Refer to the language "if they are satisfied" - which by construction means the 'we cannot say in advance whether the CBSA officer will be satisfied' response is always correct. And not coincidentally, reduces the likelihood they will have someone claiming the call centre person said they will be admitted - because they are trained to never, ever say that.
And just to be a wee bit cheeky: if you are, by your own admission, 'overly' concerned (excessively), then you are misguided in showing excess concern. That's just definitional. [Some appropriate emoji]