why are people from outside canada favored by CIC than PGWP holders?

[The_Distant_One]

this argument is flawed. It assumes all people who get LMIA jobs have better things to offer to canadian community and thats what they want for it to work on paper, it also makes sense on paper. But people who fake experience for getting jobs or just plain incompetent people may get preference. Example a person outside canada fakes experience gets a job with LMIA gets PR and is utterly useless in canada and a burden. There should be a one to two year period of probation where people from outside canada need to keep the job they got before their PR gets finalized. Some people who are from developed countries wont understand this as we do from third world countries. Experience and education is faked easily. people who r working on LMIA exempt work permit have been in canada for 1 or more years and proved their worth some also have canadian education. Thats why putting everyone in one pool is not logical and not better for canadian people. This express entry system is a vote getting system to promote to canadian citizen that they r restricting foreign workers/PR and only allowing required talent. Canadian people wont be able to see the flaws in the system. if they wanted to really restrict PR for any tom dick or harry they should have restricted student visa, restricted number of open work permits they issue. but they wont restrict student visa as students bring in lots of money.

Your talking like CIC dont actually fact check the information PR applicants send in. If you think they just take applicants on their word your are seriously wrong. Also I'd say the ammount of LMIA/PR's being obtained from outside of canada is probably around 0.00006% because canadian employers dont even look at oversease applicants CV's unless they are desperate which then in turn would usually mean they would get an LMIA which in turn proves the system right.

also to say that your have proved your worth by working on a LMIA exempt visa doesnt mean that you havent taken a job from a canadian citizen it was just that you were the best applicant at the time (or the most willing to accept the lowest pay rate). If I was you I would be asking my current employer why they didn't value you enough to help support you in PNP.

I'm in the same boat as all PGWP visa holders, I have paid thousands to mvoe across the world, I pay thousands in taxes but I'm not demanding that I get special treatment.

 

[mead]

Your talking like CIC dont actually fact check the information PR applicants send in. If you think they just take applicants on their word your are seriously wrong. Also I'd say the ammount of LMIA/PR's being obtained from outside of canada is probably around 0.00006% because canadian employers dont even look at oversease applicants CV's unless they are desperate which then in turn would usually mean they would get an LMIA which in turn proves the system right.

also to say that your have proved your worth by working on a LMIA exempt visa doesnt mean that you havent taken a job from a canadian citizen it was just that you were the best applicant at the time (or the most willing to accept the lowest pay rate). If I was you I would be asking my current employer why they didn't value you enough to help support you in PNP.

I'm in the same boat as all PGWP visa holders, I have paid thousands to mvoe across the world, I pay thousands in taxes but I'm not demanding that I get special treatment.

i dont know which country ur from but i have seen people faking experience/education. now that people know that fake experience will give them a leg up on others lots of consultancies would pop up to do the same. hence my point the system is flawed. if the real intention was to save canadian people from losing jobs/not getting jobs then the system is not going to perform as it should. system is not right as employers who r desperate will try to avoid hassle and legal issues and hire a substandard employee or let the position go vacant this will eventually affect their productivity and may shut down or leave canada (this is exaggeration). But the point is employers will suffer economy will suffer. Another scenario is people who r on open work permit who cannot extend their work permit and who didnt get PR under express entry will leave their job and canada. again with the same effect employer forced to hire substandard employee or let the position go vacant. LMIA process should be easier for employers like the H1B in US no need for advertising the job this is not a direct comparison but u get the point.

also to say that your have proved your worth by working on a LMIA exempt visa doesnt mean that you havent taken a job from a canadian citizen it was just that you were the best applicant at the time (or the most willing to accept the lowest pay rate). If I was you I would be asking my current employer why they didn't value you enough to help support you in PNP

well yes if there r two candidates why should employer choose substandard employee? is the employer running a non profit? also PGWP holders r most likely fresh out graduates and most likely r lowest on the food chain. they r not taking anyones jobs they r just filling positions that canadians dont want. if employers dont find candidates everyone suffers. Have u seen how bad supply chain is in canada? I have a recruiter on linkedin who is advertising a job since november and still hasent found right candidate. Now for so many months he is not getting anyone but still he is not going for foreign worker why because of the whole process and unpredictability. dont u think the company is suffering because the position is not filled? work permits should be made easy and PR program should be more focused on work permit holders. right now PR is based on requirements but employers dont know the candidate they will be getting is really what they r looking for as well as will the candidate would stick around after PR.
this express entry program is for conservative party to gain votes and may not be helpful for canada/canadian citizens.
this is just my opinion and i may be wrong.

 

[mf4361]

My problem is not precisely protecting Canadians' job at the cost of businesses (it shouldn't have been like this, but bear with me), it's on one hand they tell businesses they are changing the policies to fit labour market better, on the other hand, CIC made requisites so hard to foreigners that forces businesses to hire less-than-best candidates. Such political maneuver by the government.

 

[mead]

Your talking like CIC dont actually fact check the information PR applicants send in. If you think they just take applicants on their word your are seriously wrong. Also I'd say the ammount of LMIA/PR's being obtained from outside of canada is probably around 0.00006% because canadian employers dont even look at oversease applicants CV's unless they are desperate which then in turn would usually mean they would get an LMIA which in turn proves the system right.

also to say that your have proved your worth by working on a LMIA exempt visa doesnt mean that you havent taken a job from a canadian citizen it was just that you were the best applicant at the time (or the most willing to accept the lowest pay rate). If I was you I would be asking my current employer why they didn't value you enough to help support you in PNP.

I'm in the same boat as all PGWP visa holders, I have paid thousands to mvoe across the world, I pay thousands in taxes but I'm not demanding that I get special treatment.

I want to point out another exaggerated example. as before ur toilet is blocked and needs repair u get two resume one from a plumber who is canadian and has a poor track record and messes up everything and second a plumber who is better then the first one but is on an open work permit. who do u think u will go with given a choice? if both plumbers have same skills and track record its a no brainier u will go with canadian plumber.

 

[The_Distant_One]

i dont know which country ur from but i have seen people faking experience/education. now that people know that fake experience will give them a leg up on others lots of consultancies would pop up to do the same. hence my point the system is flawed. if the real intention was to save canadian people from losing jobs/not getting jobs then the system is not going to perform as it should. system is not right as employers who r desperate will try to avoid hassle and legal issues and hire a substandard employee or let the position go vacant this will eventually affect their productivity and may shut down or leave canada (this is exaggeration). But the point is employers will suffer economy will suffer. Another scenario is people who r on open work permit who cannot extend their work permit and who didnt get PR under express entry will leave their job and canada. again with the same effect employer forced to hire substandard employee or let the position go vacant. LMIA process should be easier for employers like the H1B in US no need for advertising the job this is not a direct comparison but u get the point.

If the company themselves didnt fact check a person experience and test them on their skills then most likely that company needs to review their hiring practices. And given that 97% of my experience is that canadian organisations do not hire from oversease your example I believe is rendered irrelevant.

well yes if there r two candidates why should employer choose substandard employee? is the employer running a non profit? also PGWP holders r most likely fresh out graduates and most likely r lowest on the food chain. they r not taking anyones jobs they r just filling positions that canadians dont want. if employers dont find candidates everyone suffers. Have u seen how bad supply chain is in canada? I have a recruiter on linkedin who is advertising a job since november and still hasent found right candidate. Now for so many months he is not getting anyone but still he is not going for foreign worker why because of the whole process and unpredictability. dont u think the company is suffering because the position is not filled? work permits should be made easy and PR program should be more focused on work permit holders. right now PR is based on requirements but employers dont know the candidate they will be getting is really what they r looking for as well as will the candidate would stick around after PR.
this express entry program is for conservative party to gain votes and may not be helpful for canada/canadian citizens.
this is just my opinion and i may be wrong.

PGWP are taking the jobs of canadian graduates who are in the same position unless your trying to say the entire education system in canada is only international students.

The job you use as your example to me sounds like part of the reason the LMIA process was created, to make sure that immigrants werent taking jobs that canadians could do but wont because employers were only offering poor wages. If a company isnt attracting talent usually that means they have a poor track record in employee relations and people are afraid to apply or the are not offering a comparable renumeration package of other organisations in the same industry.

If it was truly a skill shortage issue and the employer was really desperate to fill that position they would apply for an LMIA as is required. If this isnt the case than they need better HR and legal advice.

 

[mead]

My problem is not precisely protecting Canadians' job at the cost of businesses (it shouldn't have been like this, but bear with me), it's on one hand they tell businesses they are changing the policies to fit labour market better, on the other hand, CIC made requisites so hard to foreigners that forces businesses to hire less-than-best candidates. Such political maneuver by the government.

agreed who ever designed the system seems a substandard employee too...lol

 

[The_Distant_One]

I want to point out another exaggerated example. as before ur toilet is blocked and needs repair u get two resume one from a plumber who is canadian and has a poor track record and messes up everything and second a plumber who is better then the first one but is on an open work permit. who do u think u will go with given a choice? if both plumbers have same skills and track record its a no brainier u will go with canadian plumber.

well no. If the person you want to hire is only on a open work permit you would ask them what their plan is to stay long term, if they know the immigration law properly, they will explain to you the LMIA and PNP process and if you want them bad enough you will support them.

The trade off comes between investing money training the canadian (which is also what the government wants) or supporting the work permit person to intergrate into society by helping them get PR (which is also want the government wants).

Its not purely a convenienve thing. If a company respects your skills and what you bring to the table than they will sponser you. If they dont then you should be asking some hard questions or finding a new job.

You are describing my exact situation. I have brought in my company alot of money but for them it is easier to hire someone else and train them than to go through the immigration process. So unfortunatly sucks to be me and anyone else in the process.

 

[mead]

If the company themselves didnt fact check a person experience and test them on their skills then most likely that company needs to review their hiring practices. And given that 97% of my experience is that canadian organisations do not hire from oversease your example I believe is rendered irrelevant.

I really dont know which country ur from or which field ur working in . but have u seen how IT people fake experience and get jobs. Have u seen how the consultancies give 15 day classes and inflate resumes? i am surprised and i am guessing u may not be from a third world country.

PGWP are taking the jobs of canadian graduates who are in the same position unless your trying to say the entire education system in canada is only international students.

The job you use as your example to me sounds like part of the reason the LMIA process was created, to make sure that immigrants werent taking jobs that canadians could do but wont because employers were only offering poor wages. If a company isnt attracting talent usually that means they have a poor track record in employee relations and people are afraid to apply or the are not offering a comparable renumeration package of other organisations in the same industry.

If it was truly a skill shortage issue and the employer was really desperate to fill that position they would apply for an LMIA as is required. If this isnt the case than they need better HR and legal advice.

well job is not highly skilled job its just that they r looking for a particular experience. company does not want to get into legal issues and hence not processing LMIA (this is my guess). They r clearly not getting canadians either as pay is definitely not an issue. there is limited talent in canada as population is low hence the problem.

 

[The_Distant_One]

I really dont know which country ur from or which field ur working in . but have u seen how IT people fake experience and get jobs. Have u seen how the consultancies give 15 day classes and inflate resumes? i am surprised and i am guessing u may not be from a third world country.

I think you miss my point, even if they do fake their skill and experience. The company hiring them deserve bad employees if they do not test these skills and experience expecially in IT where they can test online. I have never had a job that has not required me to prove my experience and skills in a real world setting either online or in person.

well job is not highly skilled job its just that they r looking for a particular experience. company does not want to get into legal issues and hence not processing LMIA (this is my guess). They r clearly not getting canadians either as pay is definitely not an issue. there is limited talent in canada as population is low hence the problem.

if it is not a highly skilled job then the process is working properly. Low skilled jobs should be for those entering the job market or looking to change industries. If they are not attracting the talent they want then they have something wrong with their hiring process or as you said in a low population area which is exactly why the LMIA process has been brought in. Its not the governments fault they dont want to do the process, the paperwork itself is not hard. They obviously are not desperate enough to fill the position and thats exactly why the LMIA process has been created. to fill jobs that need to be filled but cant be filled by canadians.

 

[mead]

I think you miss my point, even if they do fake their skill and experience. The company hiring them deserve bad employees if they do not test these skills and experience expecially in IT where they can test online. I have never had a job that has not required me to prove my experience and skills in a real world setting either online or in person.

ah there u go . Like I said people do fake experience and get jobs in good companies. Now my point was not if companies deserve it or not but the fact that because of fake experience a canadian citizen who deserved that job has lost the job. u missed the point completely. now what has happened hypothetical company got bad employee, a canadian lost the job and EE system failed. Since u havent seen it the way u sound is like "if they dont have bread let them eat cake"
I am not going to argue any further as I think this is going a little out of hand.

 

[kateg]

ah there u go . Like I said people do fake experience and get jobs in good companies. Now my point was not if companies deserve it or not but the fact that because of fake experience a canadian citizen who deserved that job has lost the job. u missed the point completely. now what has happened hypothetical company got bad employee, a canadian lost the job and EE system failed. Since u havent seen it the way u sound is like "if they dont have bread let them eat cake"
I am not going to argue any further as I think this is going a little out of hand.

Canadians will inflate their experience as well, so the reverse also happens. Company wants to hire a great foreigner, but has to hire the "qualified" Canadian, who turns out not to be. The hypothetical company gets a bad employee (who ends up getting fired anyway).

 

[mead]

Canadians will inflate their experience as well, so the reverse also happens. Company wants to hire a great foreigner, but has to hire the "qualified" Canadian, who turns out not to be. The hypothetical company gets a bad employee (who ends up getting fired anyway).

good point EE system fails again.

 

[kateg]

good point EE system fails again.

No. People fail again.

There are limitations to any system. The question then becomes not whether the system is perfect, but rather whether the system is better than the alternative. In many ways, EE is.

It's impossible to design an immigration system that manages to accomplish everything it sets out to perfectly, while also addressing political and economic realities. What many people think of as "broken" (particularly with PGWP) is in fact working as designed.

Canada is not a police state. People will lie, and there's no government registry of job history. Either they accept that some foreigners will lie (and work to minimize it), or they reject all foreigners (which has economic consequences).

My employer is sponsoring me for a LMIA. They are desperate, and I'm extremely well qualified. If they had Canadian applicants who were qualified, I would want the job to go to them, because I value a strong economy.

As an extreme example, suppose Canada let anyone who wanted it have citizenship. There would be a huge influx of people trying to find jobs, and willing to take much lower rates than the Canadian norms. As you see on this forum regularly, someone who is used to making $4,000-$6,000 a year will find $20,000 a year to be a great opportunity. For the worker who was making $40,000 beforehand, that's a great loss, and for the employer, why pay $40,000 when you can pay $20,000? A few years later, why pay $20,000 when someone will work for $10,000?

I want to be Canadian. I'm working hard to make that a possibility, by trying to be the kind of person Canada is looking for. Canadian citizenship has value, and things that hurt that value (by making it too easy to get) will ultimately devalue it for everyone who has it.

I understand that PGWP holders work and pay taxes. I pay taxes to Canada, too. Spending one year getting a degree in sport science (or some other field where there's a bunch of qualified Canadians) shouldn't be a fast-track to Citizenship, because if Canada is going to let foreigners get Citizenship, that Citizenship should go to the best of the best, not just people who signed up and put their time in for a class.

 

[The_Distant_One]

good point EE system fails again.

I disagree, EE hasnt failed the company themselves have failed because they haven't completed a comprehensive recruitment programme. any HR professions worth their salary will be able to weed out those who fake skills and experience