When is the start of our conjugal relationship??

[Direstrife]

Hello guys, the OP2 manual says that we must be in a conjugal relationship for at least 1 year before we file for sponsorship. We have several documents to prove that our relationship existed for over a year (13 months to be exact!) but we are not sure know WHEN we should consider the start of our conjugal relationship based on evidence. Below is a rough timeline where we can show evidence of interdependency (social/emotional/financial):

1. Aug 26, 2008- first online contact
2. September 2008- formal recognition that we are entering a relationship but we have always considered Aug 26 as our anniversary. We only have chat logs as evidence.
3. October 2008- first logged telephone call that can be seen in the bills. Sent a birthday card to partner.
4. December 2008- Got my partner a supplementary credit card.
5. April 2009- First meeting in Canada / travelled together to the Philippines for a vacation.
6. August 2009- Second meeting in Canada
7. September 2009- named my partner as a beneficiary in my life insurance.

In your opinion, where do you think we have likely established a conjugal relationship? Do you think it is too early to apply now? I am thinking that October 2008 can be considered as the start but of course this is subjective. As per OP2 manual though, telephone calls, chat logs and gifts/cards count as an indication of emotional interdependency which have begun in October 2008. Only in December 2008 when we have started having the financial bit-- which I am worried that they may actually look into this as the start of the conjugal relationship. We are planning to apply this month and now thinking twice if we should hold it off for a few more months. Your thoughts?

Thank you.

 

[PMM]

Hi

Hello guys, the OP2 manual says that we must be in a conjugal relationship for at least 1 year before we file for sponsorship. We have several documents to prove that our relationship existed for over a year (13 months to be exact!) but we are not sure know WHEN we should consider the start of our conjugal relationship based on evidence. Below is a rough timeline where we can show evidence of interdependency (social/emotional/financial):

1. Aug 26, 2008- first online contact
2. September 2008- formal recognition that we are entering a relationship but we have always considered Aug 26 as our anniversary. We only have chat logs as evidence.
3. October 2008- first logged telephone call that can be seen in the bills. Sent a birthday card to partner.
4. December 2008- Got my partner a supplementary credit card.
5. April 2009- First meeting in Canada / travelled together to the Philippines for a vacation.
6. August 2009- Second meeting in Canada
7. September 2009- named my partner as a beneficiary in my life insurance.

In your opinion, where do you think we have likely established a conjugal relationship? Do you think it is too early to apply now? I am thinking that October 2008 can be considered as the start but of course this is subjective. As per OP2 manual though, telephone calls, chat logs and gifts/cards count as an indication of emotional interdependency which have begun in October 2008. Only in December 2008 when we have started having the financial bit-- which I am worried that they may actually look into this as the start of the conjugal relationship. We are planning to apply this month and now thinking twice if we should hold it off for a few more months. Your thoughts?

Thank you.

1. You realize of course that Conjugal applications usually result in failures, especially if there is no barrier to co-habit as c/law for a year or marry? If you are going this route (but it is your decision) I think that you can only start counting the time from you actually met.

PMM

 

[Direstrife]

Thank you for the response, PMM. We understand how the category works and wouldn't apply through this route if we could go c/law or marry.

So your opinion is from the time we actually met. Is this a kind of a fast and hard rule for all relationships?

 

[toby]

This is not really related to conjugal relationships, per se.

I am curious, when PMM says that many "conjugal" applications fail, how one can know this unless one is a professional handling many cases.

Can one gain this experience by monitoring forums like this one for a long time?

Thanks for clearing this up for me.

 

[mitamata]

Yes, a lot of people who apply as conjugal partners end up here after they get refused and are all confused about how it could happen.

The problem with conjugal is that it can go either way, it often depends on what the IO's views on the category are. The manual is a bit conflicting on the subject (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op02-eng.pdf).

Because of Supreme Court decisions, the choice not to marry is a constitutionally protected
choice. Thus, CIC cannot require couples to marry in order to immigrate. However, if they are not
married, they must be common-law partners. There is NO provision for fiancé(e)s or “intended
common-law partners” in IRPA. If a Canadian and a foreign national can get married or can live
together and establish a common-law relationship, this is what they are expected to have done
before they submit sponsorship and immigration applications.

So, in the same paragraph they are saying that you shouldn't be forced to marry in order to immigrate, but if you CAN marry, you're expected to do so. Which, to me, makes no sense, but whatever. It goes on too...

In general, people who have made the level of commitment expected in a conjugal relationship
would normally marry or live together. If a foreign national could have married their Canadian
sponsor or lived with them, and chose not to do so, then it is questionable whether they have the
significant degree of commitment characteristic of a conjugal relationship.

... and yet...

Although the intention of the conjugal-partner category is to accommodate those few Canadians
with foreign partners who can neither marry nor live together, inability to marry cannot be an
absolute requirement, since this could have the effect of “forcing” those couples to marry who may
have chosen not to do so. Persons who have established and maintained a conjugal relationship
for one year and who do not intend to marry might be conjugal partners if they have been unable
to cohabit because of an immigration impediment or other serious barrier. The key to determining
whether an individual is a conjugal partner is whether they are in a conjugal relationship with their
sponsor and whether there is a compelling barrier to continuous cohabitation.

Which one is the IO going to go with? You don't know. They might just say "oh, they could marry, but chose not to - obviously they're not committed to each other enough, refused!" or they might say "ok, the chose not to marry, which is their right and they are in a conjugal relationship, so... approved!" I've heard of some rather flimsy cases get approved and yet pretty solid ones refused.
That's why most of us will tell you to avoid that category if at all possible. A little piece of paper saying you are married can save you months upon months of stress.

 

[Direstrife]

I agree with PMM and mitamata... conjugal applications are complicated because IOs can interpret it in different ways... given the fact that OP2 itself gives conflicting statements on how cases like this should be evaluated.

You are also right, Toby. No one here in the forum can guarantee the success of any application-- whether it is spousal, c/law or conjugal. PMM and mitamata are basing their opinions on figures and people they came across whose applications were refused after going conjugal.

With regards to my case, I mentioned I fully understand the high possibility of refusal in this type of application. The reason why I am going through this route is because I have evidence to justify it. It's a calculated risk-- and the evidence I can provide can also decrease the risk of refusal. The burden is on me to provide as much supporting documents as I can.

Just to give you guys one of the evidence I have.. I live in the U.A.E where common-law or same-gender relationships are punishable by law.. 14 years in prison, deportation or capital punishment (death). I have the photocopy of the UAE Penal Code. And yes, I am in a same-gender relationship with my canadian partner.. which is one of the reasons why conjugal application is introduced by CIC. I have a pretty solid case guys so don't worry about me too much. But still i don't deny the fact that I still have a 50/50 chance.

Now back to my original question on the first post, any more ideas?? Challenging PMM's opinion above, the OP2 says:

Because a conjugal relationship means interdependency, mutual
commitment and exclusivity, such a relationship is not established
immediately when two people meet or when they start to date or even
necessarily when they begin a sexual relationship. A conjugal
relationship builds over a period of time. Officers must assess the facts
of each case individually; however, in general terms, most conjugal
partners will likely have known one another for more than one year.

So I think that we do not necessarily start the counting from the time we meet?

 

[ariell]

I think they are writing that based on a typical relationship where you first meet someone in person and then begin dating. They are not taking into consideration online relationships. In a typical relationship, obviously the first time that you meet someone is not the start of your relationship. In your case, you met online and then after after several months, you met in person in April. That is what PMM is suggesting that you use as the start of your relationship and I would have to agree. I certainly don't think you could consider yourself being in a conjugal relationship when you hadn't even met in person yet! So I personally don't think listing Oct. 08 -- the first time that you spoke on the phone-- is going to fly. They are looking to see that you have made a serious commitmet to each other and are able to show that your lives are significantly entertwined -- physically, emotionally, financially, socially. I'm not sure how you could convince an IO that this was the case for you before you had even met in person. So I would have to agree that you could not list anytime before April 09 as the start of your conjugal relationship.

Oh and BTW, not that he will ever confess to it, but I believe PMM is a retired VO so he knows his stuff. ;-)

 

[rjessome]

I agree 1000% percent with ariell and PMM.

Same gender relationships are what the conjugal category was designed for. So you're good there. However, it's worth waiting until you have reached the 1 year anniversary of your meeting. It will strengthen your application a great deal. Spend these next 5 months fine tuning the application as best you can and compiling more proof of your commitment to each other. While online meetings are definitely the "norm" these days, you still want to give your application the best possible chance of a positive outcome. This 5 months of patience could pay off in a HUGE way in the end. If you are refused, an appeal takes almost another year. Don't risk going there if you don't have to.

 

[Direstrife]

Alrighty guys... it's 3 vs. 1 so I guess we'll have to wait 'til April 2010. It's frustrating to wait but as you said it will be all worth it. Thank you all for the input!

 

[rjessome]

Good. )

Start reading this OP manual as to how conjugal relationships are defined and assessed. Page 20, section 5.25.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op02-eng.pdf

Information is power and it's better that you are well prepared.

 

[megamind_moon]

I want to ask about the conjugal partner
My girlfriend lives in canada and has PR... We have known each other for 9 years..our relationship started years ago.. 2 years n lebanon and 4 years while she was in canada..
We are of the same sex...and being together is impossible in lebanon... Takin into consideration. Religious cultural and legal backgrounds...if any1 know abt us, we'll be sexually assaulted, imprisoned and even forced to opp sex marriage! Plus the demeaned look of thr society and scandel.. So i wana inquire abt this issue
I do have photos..videos... Chats ... Everytimes she comes to lebanon we spend alot of tine together...yet her parents are very strict... Even friends are nt allowed...yet i still hearand see their actions..they get annoyed even when we pretend we r just friends!!
Ths case is unbearable..and we want to be together!

 

[canadianwoman]

A situation like this is where a conjugal application has a chance to be approved. You should apply for a TRV to go to Canada. If you get one, then you can get married in Canada (or live together for 12 months and become common law) and then your spouse can apply to sponsor you. If you are refused a TRV, this is part of the evidence you need to show that there are immigration barriers preventing you from marrying or living common law.
One piece of evidence the visa officer will want to see is that your finances are intertwined to the extent possible. So for example if your partner sends you money, this can be used as evidence.

 

[megamind_moon]

A situation like this is where a conjugal application has a chance to be approved. You should apply for a TRV to go to Canada. If you get one, then you can get married in Canada (or live together for 12 months and become common law) and then your spouse can apply to sponsor you. If you are refused a TRV, this is part of the evidence you need to show that there are immigration barriers preventing you from marrying or living common law.
One piece of evidence the visa officer will want to see is that your finances are intertwined to the extent possible. So for example if your partner sends you money, this can be used as evidence.

I have applied twice and got rejected 2 years ago..even when i. Provided a copy of the ticket i got rejected...unfortunately i forget my cic number that is usually given after first application..
Regarding sending money, yes she does through western union.... How can i prove that!
Our finances cnt be intertwined! Her family is so strict, she is barely able to get me a present or go out with me when she comes for a visit... Even whn we pretend to be just friend in front of them...besides i dnt have bank account!! I dnt even have a full time job
What would you suggest?!

 

[Rob_TO]

I have applied twice and got rejected 2 years ago..even when i. Provided a copy of the ticket i got rejected...unfortunately i forget my cic number that is usually given after first application..
Regarding sending money, yes she does through western union.... How can i prove that!
Our finances cnt be intertwined! Her family is so strict, she is barely able to get me a present or go out with me when she comes for a visit... Even whn we pretend to be just friend in front of them...besides i dnt have bank account!! I dnt even have a full time job
What would you suggest?!

Conjugal application requires you showing a "marriage like" relationship, much more than simply dating someone long distance. In your case that looks very difficult to prove.

Is there another country that she could more easily travel to, that allows same-sex marriage? If you could do this and apply as a married couple, your app would have a much better chance at being approved. As part of the conjugal app you would be advised anyways to show she applied for visas to a few countries that allowed same-sex marriage, but was rejected for all of them. Conjugal application should be a last resort.

 

[megamind_moon]

Conjugal application requires you showing a "marriage like" relationship, much more than simply dating someone long distance. In your case that looks very difficult to prove.

Is there another country that she could more easily travel to, that allows same-sex marriage? If you could do this and apply as a married couple, your app would have a much better chance at being approved. As part of the conjugal app you would be advised anyways to show she applied for visas to a few countries that allowed same-sex marriage, but was rejected for all of them. Conjugal application should be a last resort.

Its hard for her to travel to other countries wzout her parents consent! Her parents monitor her passport...u dnt get how strict they r!