Ray of Hope - 145th Draw - CEC

[Impatient Dankaroo]

I think I understand the concern of some around here.

We are all coming to Canada because there is something about this country that attracts us, most of the time it is its culture, traditions, people, etc.

Sometimes it is hard to find that when suddenly more and more neighborhoods are full of people coming from one specific country, rather than several. This is even more notorious when the country these people are coming from is so different from Canada.

Eventually and inevitably these people will create their own communities and this event will set them apart from the rest of the population.

Let's take last November - December for example, in some places there were more decorations for Diwali than there were for Christmas.

It was surprising for me to see some Indian landlords post their apartaments or houses for rent in places like Kijiji and asking specifically for Indian tenants.

These things are not a problem for me but they might be a problem for others. There is a reason why immigrants like myself left our countries, most of us don't want Canada to become the country we left behind.

But, if more and more people from one single country are the ones getting here and they insist in only keeping their traditions and customs instead of embracing the Western-Canadian culture, I don't see how to avoid this from happening.

I hope no one gets offended by this, I would think the same way if most immigrants were from Italy, Brazil, Russia, etc.

Yep, I've seen listings asking for Indian Tenants only or an Indian friend saying the Tim Horton's manager only hiring Indian students. What message is that sending to other immigrants? It's every race for themselves?

 

[indianstudent96]

Yep, I've seen listings asking for Indian Tenants only or an Indian friend saying the Tim Horton's manager only hiring Indian students. What message is that sending to other immigrants? It's every race for themselves?

As an Indian, I find this unacceptable. This should not be happening anywhere in the world let alone be Canada. I don't condone this kind of behaviour from anyone. If other immigrants want to generalize all Indian origin people based on a few bad apples, that's not gonna solve this issue. The solution to racism/favouritism is not more racism/xenophobia.

 

[seadrag0n]

When you go to Tim hontons/ A&W/ Gas station/ Subway owned by Indian...I doubt you will see any other race working there and
when I took IELTS-G in GTA in few years ago, I was surprised the amount of "Ethnicity" in the centre

If it bothers you so much, why don't you complain or something and see how it goes?

 

[Islander216]

I am sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. Maybe I misunderstood when you said what "might happen" as to what you "wanted to happen" just the way many seem to be suggesting how IRCC should do their job in this forum.

Also I was not attacking you after going out of logic and facts. It looked like you were overstating facts when you said 80k out of 90k quota, so I thought facts were irrelevant in this situation. Even in this reply, you seem to think that 90% of the new immigrants are from one country, which is overstating the facts again.

85k/341k = approx 25% of total immigs or 41K/89K = 46% of EE ITAs which is half or less of your estimates. I know these numbers are more to be coming from one country, but just to give another fact, out of 7.7billion world population 1.3 billion are Indian. so that is about 17% of world population you are talking about. Sorry if there is more competition coming.

When I said even if this trend continues for the next 10 years the number would be insignificant to cause political issues and you seemed to not accept it, it looked like logic was taking a hit. Currently projected population in Canada by 2030 is 41million. So if this trend of 80k Indians/year were to continue for the next 10 years Canadian population of Indian origin would not be more than 1.8million given in 2020 it is about 1million. let's say I exaggerate and if it were to come to 2.5 million i.e, 2.5mil/41mil = approx 6% of the population. Do you think 6% will really affect the political situation of the country? currently, there is about 5% of the Chinese origin population in Canada. Do you see a huge political impact in their favor?

When you suggested that a certain idea might help in avoiding what may happen it seemed like you were suggesting that idea to be implemented by IRCC in a forum where there are other hopeful immigrants. Again sorry for misrepresenting your intentions. My intention was only to ask you not to worry too much over what might or might not happen and hurt the sentiments of others in this forum while doing so based on unreasonable fears and I might have gone overboard with my previous reply for which I apologize for offending if I did.

I've already replied to the numbers argument, 85k/341k is diluting the impact because you want to decrease the ratio by adding a lot of irrelevant immigration categories like sponsorship and refugees, which don't count as economic migrants. if you want to say 85k on 195k, total economic migrants across all programs, i would at least say that is reasonable.
And 195k is all the intake across all economic immigration programs, which we can't compare because we don't have the breakdown for them, and this figure is for all places available, it doesn't mean all of them will be filled during the year. So that means the total actual figures could be less, but what we do know is that usually EE fulfills its quota annually.

The article doesn't specify whether for 2019 it is the total number across all categories or just EE, so i'm not taking it as the gospel truth. But i'm just saying, the trend is clear that Indians are dominating EE at a rate which is very high. We don't have the end of year report for 2019, but as i demonstrated for 2018, the numbers are almost the same for the numbers admitted as per the 2018 report. So it's very reasonable to assume that the numbers for 2019 will be similar, and yes, over 80k for 90k places for EE is almost 90% of PRs for EE, which is the main program for economic immigrants.

That's very possibly a concern for diversity.

As for the overall impact, i think this is subjective because different people have different definitions for what is a potential issue or cause for concern when it comes to demographics. However, i will say this, if you want to assess the impact of this it's more useful to analyse it by area. So for example, the GTA is about 51% Indian, if this consistent and significant annual influx of Indian immigrants settle in this area over the years (as would be expected), then you will have an even greater majority of Indians living there. This will obviously have a negative effect on diversity in the vicinity. But putting that aside, what is clear is that certainly the argument that there isn't enough diversity for PRs admitted through EE recently is valid numerically.

Again, for the record, this is not specifically targeted towards Indians, the same concerns would be just as valid if we were talking about any other country.

Anyhow, it's a very interesting discussion but i think it's time to refocus on the topic at hand in this thread. And i wish everyone luck, regardless of where they come from.

 

[akb21]

Guys, there is no point in arguing about diversity on the ray of hope thread. Canada is a beautiful and accepting country and people are responsible for making new immigrants feel like home. Given the comments and the negativity, it does not speak very highly about immigrants who are trying to land or have just landed. I would insist everybody to improve their scores or go through the immigration process and be excited about the opportunity and the new beginning. Express Entry is an open system based on merit that anybody that qualify can apply. If there are more applicants from a particular nation, it is not the applicant’s fault or the nation’s fault or IRCC’s fault. It is a choice that is available to everybody fair and square. The forum is meant to help each other and not to vent out frustration. If somebody is overly concerned about diversity, they should take efforts to set up a stage/platform to provide resources and convince applicants across other nations to apply.

 

[seadrag0n]

I've already replied to the numbers argument, 85k/341k is diluting the impact because you want to decrease the ratio by adding a lot of irrelevant immigration categories like sponsorship and refugees, which don't count as economic migrants. if you want to say 85k on 195k, total economic migrants across all programs, i would at least say that is reasonable.
And 195k is all the intake across all economic immigration programs, which we can't compare because we don't have the breakdown for them, and this figure is for all places available, it doesn't mean all of them will be filled during the year.

The article doesn't specify whether for 2019 it is the total number across all categories or just EE, so i'm not taking it as the gospel truth. But i'm just saying, the trend is clear that Indians are dominating EE at a rate which is very high. We don't have the end of year report for 2019, but as i demonstrated for 2019, the numbers are almost the same for the numbers admitted as per the 2018 report. So it's very reasonable to assume that the numbers for 2019 will be similar, and yes, over 80k for 90k places for EE is almost 90% of PRs for EE, which is the main program for economic immigrants.

That's very possibly a concern for diversity.

As for the overall impact, i think this is subjective because different people have different definitions for what is a potential issue or cause for concern when it comes to demographics. But putting that aside, what is clear is that certainly the argument that there isn't enough diversity for PRs admitted through EE recently is valid numerically.

What do you think is the solution for this? The way EE works, adding country wise quotas is impossible, they cannot just show a message saying "Indians were ineligible for this draw" when the draws takes place. EE should be scrapped and replaced with something else for limiting applicants from specific countries.

Also, OINP nominated people from 130 different countries last year and half of them are from just one country out of 130 which is India. Don't you think figure is very high? Won't this be a big problem if "diversity" is such an issue?

 

[indianstudent96]

Lol, this is getting heated up here. In my opinion, Canada is already quite diverse. People who have been to major cities in Canada can attest to this fact.

Secondly, there is a debate among (potential) immigrants if there should be a quota implemented if Indians continue to receive more ITAs than other nationals in Express Entry. I guess we will have to leave that to the Canadian government and IRCC. Looking at the history of immigration to Canada, I doubt they will implement a quota system. Until 1976, most immigrants to Canada were from Europe. After changing the policy in 1976, most immigrants were visible minorities. This clearly shows they have come a long way from the Komagata Maru incident in 1908 and the Chinese Immigration Act of 1923 which explicitly made it almost impossible for these people to immigrate to Canada.

If the government implements a quota system, they will probably face a backlash. What a lot of people are not understanding is Canada has already opened her doors to everyone in the world, thus building a strong foundation for a diverse population. Express Entry is a competition and only the best 'n' number of candidates receive an invitation to apply when they do a draw. It's as simple as that. If people from other countries can't make it to top 'n,' too bad for them. Calling for quotas is not gonna make it even ground for everyone.

The US system is way different from this because it's not point-based. It does not give credit to applicants like Canada and a few other developed nations do. To reiterate, Express Entry is not a diversity visa lottery, it's a merit-based system that picks up the top-ranked candidates every draw. It may or may not change. No point in fighting for a purely hypothetical situation that may or may not happen.

 

[indianstudent96]

Guys, there is no point in arguing about diversity on the ray of hope thread. Canada is a beautiful and accepting country and people are responsible for making new immigrants feel like home. Given the comments and the negativity, it does not speak very highly about immigrants who are trying to land or have just landed. I would insist everybody to improve their scores or go through the immigration process and be excited about the opportunity and the new beginning. Express Entry is an open system based on merit that anybody that qualify can apply. If there are more applicants from a particular nation, it is not the applicant’s fault or the nation’s fault or IRCC’s fault. It is a choice that is available to everybody fair and square. The forum is meant to help each other and not to vent out frustration. If somebody is overly concerned about diversity, they should take efforts to set up a stage/platform to provide resources and convince applicants across other nations to apply.

This! You get it. No point in arguing.

 

[seadrag0n]

Guys, there is no point in arguing about diversity on the ray of hope thread. Canada is a beautiful and accepting country and people are responsible for making new immigrants feel like home. Given the comments and the negativity, it does not speak very highly about immigrants who are trying to land or have just landed. I would insist everybody to improve their scores or go through the immigration process and be excited about the opportunity and the new beginning. Express Entry is an open system based on merit that anybody that qualify can apply. If there are more applicants from a particular nation, it is not the applicant’s fault or the nation’s fault or IRCC’s fault. It is a choice that is available to everybody fair and square. The forum is meant to help each other and not to vent out frustration. If somebody is overly concerned about diversity, they should take efforts to set up a stage/platform to provide resources and convince applicants across other nations to apply.

At first it used to be about improving CRS score due to recent high cutoff, then it moved onto a war between CEC's and FSW's because of CEC only draws and now the discussion has moved onto adding country wise quotas because Indians are grabbing most of the ITA's.

ROH threads keep falling to a new low but one thing remains constant, the discussion gets spicier each time, cannot wait for the next topic of discussion.

 

[Islander216]

What do you think is the solution for this? The way EE works, adding country wise quotas is impossible, they cannot just show a message saying "Indians were ineligible for this draw" when the draws takes place. EE should be scrapped and replaced with something else for limiting applicants from specific countries.

Also, OINP nominated people from 130 different countries last year and half of them are from just one country out of 130 which is India. Don't you think figure is very high? Won't this be a big problem if "diversity" is such an issue?

I think that's a bit crass to put it that way, just put a caveat for the draw that citizens of these countries were inelligible for this draw, then have a link to the list of countries, showing that they've already reached their quota of ITAs, the date it was reached and the date when they will be elligible for them to be part of rounds of invitations again.

But i think the best way is to keep it the way it is and then just put quotas, and once the quotas have been reached, people from that country won't be able to qualify until next year. I mean, 40k is a lot of people from one country for a quota for example, it's just ensuring it does n't become a number like 80k.

Honestly, we're all bored and waiting for the next draw, so it's just discussing what's kinda relevant.

 

[seadrag0n]

I think from a technical point of view they could just create an extra points category for everyone who is of a nationality that had less than X ITA last year and then release a list. Or have the system choose it automatically. For example in 2017 there were 42% of ITA issued to Indians, 9% to Chinese and 6% to Nigerians. The system could just award an extra 50 points to everyone who has a different citizenship than those three, if IRCC really wanted to, assuming a limit of 5%.

Or their profile becomes ineligible if candidates are from those specific countries, their profiles wont even get in the pool.

 

[indianstudent96]

I think from a technical point of view they could just create an extra points category for everyone who is of a nationality that had less than X ITA last year and then release a list. Or have the system choose it automatically. For example in 2017 there were 42% of ITA issued to Indians, 9% to Chinese and 6% to Nigerians. The system could just award an extra 50 points to everyone who has a different citizenship than those three, if IRCC really wanted to, assuming a limit of 5%.

This is becoming a joke. People are getting desperate and they want to get an ITA at any cost. If they implement this, it won't be a meritocracy anymore. Again, people should learn to compete instead of hoping for things that will probably never happen!

 

[Islander216]

Let's refrain from speculating further, we don't want to upset the Indian applicants here.

I think the diversity argument has already been made, let's leave it at that.

 

[chemistesa]

if I was a Canadian citizen, the composition of the immigration pool would have interested me a lot. I would never want more than half of the immigrants to come from one specific country/culture/language.

I would never want my society to turn into the place where the majority of immigrants come from.

I would always support diversity.

 

[joconstantine]

if I was a Canadian citizen, the composition of the immigration pool would have interested me a lot. I would never want more than half of the immigrants to come from one specific country/culture/language.

I would never want my society to turn into the place where the majority of immigrants come from.

I would always support diversity.

Well, this race-based selection has been done by the Singapore government for years. Here, Chinese people, especially those who are from Malaysia and Indonesia, only need to reside for 1.5 years before they can obtain the PR status. Other races, hmmm, good luck!