Permanent residency determination decision

[Harry99]

Hi,

I had my citizenship interview a month ago and at the end the agent asked me to secure a positive PRD (permanent residency determination) decision from an overseas consulate as I am not in Canada due to a family emergency. My PR card is valid till 2024, I still meet all the residency obligations but she insisted I will need to submit it with 30 days.
From here on the problem starts.

1. The email she sent had no instructions, just a simple 'supplementary evidence is required from you within 30 days'. The pdf had the same message but the time frame was listed as 60 days.

2. Apparently nobody knows how to get a PRD from an overseas consulate. The consulate told me to contact IRCC, IRCC agents were clueless and asked me to fill the webform.

3. The webform reply came today and is oddly worded. It says

"To determine if you meet the residence requirement to become a Canadian citizen, you may be asked to complete the Residence Questionnaire (CIT 0171) and provide documents to support your answers."

Emphasis on the 'may'. I couldn't find the said Questionnaire CIT 0171 on the IRCC website, but a google search revealed some old ones from 2013. I am still not sure if this is what she asked for, this form for sure has nothing to with an overseas consulate. The past month I have sent an email/week to the concerned IRCC office as there was a deadline, but have not received any response.

I will not be able to go back till the holiday, worst case summer of 2023. This is also what I told her during the interview, and this is probably what led to all of the above.

Does anyone here know how to get a PRD decision from an overseas consulate? Or any another piece of information that might help?

Thanks

 

[bellaluna]

The overseas PRD seems to be related to PRTD applications. I wonder if the interviewing agent is simply looking for a GCMS update of a positive PRD. You might have to find another contact person in the consulate who’s knowledgeable on PRTDs.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi,

I had my citizenship interview a month ago and at the end the agent asked me to secure a positive PRD (permanent residency determination) decision from an overseas consulate as I am not in Canada due to a family emergency. My PR card is valid till 2024, I still meet all the residency obligations but she insisted I will need to submit it with 30 days.
From here on the problem starts.

1. The email she sent had no instructions, just a simple 'supplementary evidence is required from you within 30 days'. The pdf had the same message but the time frame was listed as 60 days.

2. Apparently nobody knows how to get a PRD from an overseas consulate. The consulate told me to contact IRCC, IRCC agents were clueless and asked me to fill the webform.

3. The webform reply came today and is oddly worded. It says

"To determine if you meet the residence requirement to become a Canadian citizen, you may be asked to complete the Residence Questionnaire (CIT 0171) and provide documents to support your answers."

Emphasis on the 'may'. I couldn't find the said Questionnaire CIT 0171 on the IRCC website, but a google search revealed some old ones from 2013. I am still not sure if this is what she asked for, this form for sure has nothing to with an overseas consulate. The past month I have sent an email/week to the concerned IRCC office as there was a deadline, but have not received any response.

I will not be able to go back till the holiday, worst case summer of 2023. This is also what I told her during the interview, and this is probably what led to all of the above.

Does anyone here know how to get a PRD decision from an overseas consulate? Or any another piece of information that might help?

Thanks

Other than return to Canada (the one more or less obvious way to approach this that should resolve things), it is not clear what you need to do, or what you can do, based on the information you have shared. The request you describe is not common.

A crucial, essential factor in this situation is that you continue to be in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. That is, it is not just important but essential that as of today you have been present IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years, again as of today. AND that this continues to be true going forward, at the very least until you return to Canada. That is, it is absolutely imperative that there is no point in time going forward that you have not been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years as of any day, each and every day. (If on any day you pass the threshold of failing to be IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years, as of that day, you would meet the definition of "inadmissible" and thus be subject to a decision that you are no longer eligible for a grant of citizenship.)

I realize that was not responsive to your query, and you stated that you "still meet all the residency obligations," but it needs to be clearly stated because it is such an important part of the situation for a citizenship applicant spending an extended period of time abroad while their citizenship application is pending. The applicant needs to continue to meet the PR Residency Obligation (in addition to and apart from meeting the physical presence requirement to qualify for a grant of citizenship) right up to the day they take the oath.

"Does anyone here know how to get a PRD decision from an overseas consulate?"​

As @bellaluna suggested, an application for a PR Travel Document will result in a PR Determination.

Depending on the circumstances, an application for a PR TD may result in a formal decision fairly quickly (week to a few weeks) or it can take significantly longer.

However, the application requires the PR to check a box indicating either that they are applying for a PR TD because their PR card was lost, stolen, or damaged; or, because they do not have a PR card.

There is no option (in the application) to apply because the PR needs a formal determination of their status, other than to obtain a PR TD because they do not possess a valid PR card.



CIT 0171 "Residence Questionnaire" and CIT 0520 (sometimes called RQ lite):

While versions of these RQ (residence questionnaire) related forms are floating around the internet, IRCC only makes them available by sending them to particular individuals (they can be obtained, otherwise, through an ATI application). These are forms used in the citizenship application process to determine whether the applicant met the presence requirement as of the date of the application.

There is a topic here specifically focused on these and other forms of RQ-related requests, titled: "RQ versus Physical Presence Questionnaires, including CIT 0205" and is here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/rq-versus-physical-presence-questionnaires-including-cit-0205.534082/

Again, those are specifically about documenting and proving the citizenship applicant met the 1095 days in five years presence requirement. They are not structured to facilitate a formal PR Determination as to compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

Based on what you report it does not appear that the request to you is RQ-related but, rather, to verify you continue to be in PR RO compliance.

There are similar forms or requests sometimes used by IRCC in proceedings to determine if a PR is in RO compliance, such as cases where the PR's RO compliance is at issue attendant an application for a new or replacement PR card, or as triggered by an application to sponsor a family member. But here too these are generally only available to individuals attendant IRCC specifically sending them to the individual.


What To Do Otherwise?

I do not attempt to give advice. There are other topics here where, for example, citizenship applicants abroad have been asked to provide proof of their return to Canada, in which other forum participants discuss how to respond, including some suggestions to more or less explicitly request that IRCC proceed to approve the citizenship application and schedule the oath. See, for example, this topic: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/proof-of-return-to-canada.772419/

While I do not give advice, I will state the obvious: returning to Canada and advising IRCC that you are IN Canada is one fairly sure way to approach resolving the situation. If you have not been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years, as of today, it is probably imperative that you return to Canada as soon as possible, not just to save the citizenship application but to keep PR status as well.

You indicate returning to Canada is not feasible for you. Obviously at some point you may need to anyway, even if you are currently still in RO compliance. If for example your application is delayed more and in the meantime the amount of time you are abroad approaches falling short of meeting the PR RO, you will need to come to Canada to save the application and to keep PR status.

As I (and some others) have often cautioned, there are significant RISKS involved for applicants abroad after applying. This has been addressed in numerous topics here, typically related to questions about being abroad after applying. There are many others who deny there are any significant risks due to or arising from being abroad, or claim that any additional risks are so minimal that to mention them is to exaggerate them. We disagree. And the forum is rife with examples illustrating that it at least appears applicants living abroad or otherwise abroad for extended periods of time are more prone to delays, non-routine processing, and other inconveniences if not outright impediments in their path to becoming a citizen. Many do not encounter even delays let alone overt difficulties. But a significant number do.

OTHERWISE . . . obtain the assistance of a Canadian immigration lawyer with experience in citizenship cases.

 

[Harry99]

Other than return to Canada (the one more or less obvious way to approach this that should resolve things), it is not clear what you need to do, or what you can do, based on the information you have shared. The request you describe is not common.

Thank you for such a detailed response, I agree with everything you wrote. Initially I thought it might be a PRTD but like you said we have to choose why we're applying and neither of the two options apply to me. And I did not receive any form with the webform response. I have scoured the internet for anything related to a PRD but the closed thing I found was for PR application and it was meant to be sent to Sydney (it was in the IRCC archives).

As for my residency obligation, I will maintain it till Feb 2024 if given I don't go back at all. And that obviously won't be the case as I stated in my post.

I have once more written to the high commission here in India, I hope they give me a favourable response as IRCC has no clue and clearly can't get a hold of the agent that conducted my interview. Also apparently the Surrey CIC office has a no response policy.

One thing that I messed up was that at the end of the interview the agent asked me twice if I wanted to ask something lol At the time I thought whatever the PRD is it'll be emailed to me with instructions so responded with 'no, I don't think so'. Seriously regret saying that.

Thanks again, I guess if nothing works out I will contact IRCC once I get back.

 

[dpenabill]

I guess if nothing works out I will contact IRCC once I get back.

Reminder: a failure to respond to a request can be grounds to deem an application abandoned and terminate processing it. Thus, be sure to at least timely respond to the request, in particular, even if just to state that you have a currently valid PR card, and perhaps include detailed information showing that you are currently in RO compliance. (Yeah, this kinda stretches my "no advice" approach, but it falls under the category of stating the obvious, like advice to be truthful.)

 

[Harry99]

Reminder: a failure to respond to a request can be grounds to deem an application abandoned and terminate processing it. Thus, be sure to at least timely respond to the request, in particular, even if just to state that you have a currently valid PR card, and perhaps include detailed information showing that you are currently in RO compliance. (Yeah, this kinda stretches my "no advice" approach, but it falls under the category of stating the obvious, like advice to be truthful.)

I mean I immediately after receiving the webform response, wrote back along the lines of that I can't find the said 0171 form in the ircc form library and that I found one on the internet, should I fill that....?

 

[dpenabill]

I mean I immediately after receiving the webform response, wrote back along the lines of that I can't find the said 0171 form in the ircc form library and that I found one on the internet, should I fill that....?

As long as you made some response, that should be OK in terms of not abandoning the application. "Should" being the operative parameter here. As noted, the request itself appears to be unusual, outside the norm, making it difficult to be sure what will happen.

Unless sent CIT 0171 by IRCC, completing and submitting that form is not necessary and probably not helpful. Its scope, after all, is about the eligibility period, which came to an end the day you applied. Your RO compliance, in contrast, is about presence in Canada up until today, and continuing for each day going forward.

Among the biggest reasons I do not try to give advice, in addition to recognizing that I am NOT an expert and NOT qualified to give personal advice, is that things are always changing and my personal experience is dated. I have no personal experience in communicating with IRCC by email, for example; all my exchanges were in paper delivered by mail, or in person (such as delivering a paper copy of all pages of my passports to the processing agent interviewing me, in person, sliding the papers across the table between us).

Absent other forum participants dealing with something very similar to this, which I have not seen here (but I do not read every thread), you will need to rely on YOUR own best judgment about how to handle this.

Note: while I have not seen reports about this particular request, now and then we see sporadic reports of a wide range of unusual communications from IRCC. Many times it leads to little or nothing, and the oath is either soon scheduled or otherwise eventually scheduled. Other times there is a follow-up with a more specific request. Varies.

From your end, the main thing is to be sure you are responsive enough that the application is not deemed abandoned, and that in the meantime you stay in RO compliance.

The only caveat I might add is that if you applied with a small margin over the minimum presence requirement, your circumstances might trigger more RQ-related processing. NOT saying that will happen. We have not been seeing many reports of RQ lately. But relative to circumstances in which applicants tended to get RQ in the past, your situation is one that in the past has, or so it appears, triggered RQ-related non-routine processing.

 

[Harry99]

As long as you made some response, that should be OK in terms of not abandoning the application. "Should" being the operative parameter here. As noted, the request itself appears to be unusual, outside the norm, making it difficult to be sure what will happen.

Unless sent CIT 0171 by IRCC, completing and submitting that form is not necessary and probably not helpful. Its scope, after all, is about the eligibility period, which came to an end the day you applied. Your RO compliance, in contrast, is about presence in Canada up until today, and continuing for each day going forward.

Note: while I have not seen reports about this particular request, now and then we see sporadic reports of a wide range of unusual communications from IRCC. Many times it leads to little or nothing, and the oath is either soon scheduled or otherwise eventually scheduled. Other times there is a follow-up with a more specific request. Varies.

Yeah I understand, all information not directly from the source should be doubted, but not completely dismissed either. I really appreciate you taking out the time though. Also I forgot to mention this in the original post, but the pdf was titled 'CIT 520', and here is its main content:

1. Request for Proof of valid Permanent Residence Status:
Please provide a positive PRD decision from an overseas consulate. It is noted that you have been outside of Canada since March 2021. IRCC requires that you provide proof that you still meet the residency obligations for maintaining Permanent Residency.

I don't know if this helped, but thought should post this as well.

 

[dpenabill]

Yeah I understand, all information not directly from the source should be doubted, but not completely dismissed either. I really appreciate you taking out the time though. Also I forgot to mention this in the original post, but the pdf was titled 'CIT 520', and here is its main content:

1. Request for Proof of valid Permanent Residence Status:
Please provide a positive PRD decision from an overseas consulate. It is noted that you have been outside of Canada since March 2021. IRCC requires that you provide proof that you still meet the residency obligations for maintaining Permanent Residency.

I don't know if this helped, but thought should post this as well.

Well, it puts the request in better context, and shows it is more consistent with processing other applications.

The CIT 0520 is a RQ-related request and is known as "RQ-lite." There is extensive discussion of this form in the topic about RQ I previously referenced and linked.

As an aside, please say which version of this you got. This is indicated in the lower left corner, the version of the form indicated by month and year in brackets: CIT 0520 (MM-YYYY) . . . so we know the most recent date it has been revised.

I assume the particular request you quote was listed in the section of the form for "Other" documents. There was another forum participant who recently reported getting what, similarly, really was not a RQ related request using the CIT 0520 and requested/listed in the "Other" section. But I have not seen any follow-up from them.

Does not resolve the quandary about how to obtain a PRD when you still possess a valid PR card.

Best I can suggest, as I previously noted, is perhaps to just state that you have a currently valid PR card, and perhaps include some detailed information showing that you are currently in RO compliance (showing your presence in Canada during the five years preceding the date you send the response). That way you are submitting evidence/proof of RO compliance even if not providing the specific documentation requested. And perhaps also ask that they inform you if any further information or documentation is needed.


Final Note (hoping it is the final note):

My sense is that processing agents and Citizenship Officers are perhaps struggling with how to approach and handle applicants known to be outside Canada for extended periods of time. There appears to be a rather significant number of applicants abroad. And it is easy to guess this is raising concerns.

Being abroad is NOT a basis for denying an application. But, as noted elsewhere, more than once, the jury is still out on just how being located abroad for an extended period of time can influence (in some cases) how things go.

While many forum participants bristle with this and related observations, some rather vociferously asserting it is wrong or unfounded, there really is no question: the path provided from PR to citizenship has the explicit purpose of facilitating PERMENENT settlement and living IN Canada. Living abroad is not exactly congruous or even consistent with that. To what extent and how this factors into processing a citizenship application is currently largely uncertain. Those who believe it has no relevance and no influence are ignoring salient indicators otherwise. That said, again, living abroad is not, and cannot be, a stand alone reason for denying a citizenship application . . . BUT, again, that said, there are many indications it can be and at least sometimes is a significant factor in how things go for SOME applicants . . . not all, as there are clearly many who do not encounter any problems at all.

 

[Harry99]

As an aside, please say which version of this you got. This is indicated in the lower left corner, the version of the form indicated by month and year in brackets: CIT 0520 (MM-YYYY) . . . so we know the most recent date it has been revised.

Final Note (hoping it is the final note):

You have already provided immense help, and once again I completely agree with what you're stating. I have been a PR since 2008 and finally applied for my citizenship but my family emergency wasn't something that I was expecting. Let alone prepared for the cascade of problems it will start. I think I successfully conveyed this to the official as well.

As for the version of the CIT 520, there isn't any, in fact the pdf pages don't even have a footer. It is just plain text, what is asked of me and some subsections explaining what will happen if it isn't submitted or isn't in English.... I wrote CIT 520 because that is the name of the pdf, if it were named something else I couldn't have known cause it isn't anywhere else inside the pdf. The only thing in the footer are the page numbers.