How to ensure your child does not get Canadian citizenship?

[zardoz]

I'm not debating your point. You are right in the part you quoted. I just want to highlight the text you noted is located under Part I - The right to Citizenship section. That is why I keep saying that the law is this area is tricky. Had there not been "Right to Citizenship" title, I would totally agree with all of you. However, this title is there and court cases I have provided seem to agree with this title. Thanks.

It's a "Right" not a "Grant". That's why that is there. A "Right" is something that you have. A "Grant" is something that you have to request, and can be denied.

 

[tracker_01]

As I said before, it's actually much much simpler than that. Country X does not have a way of knowing about the child's Canadian citizenship or for that matter about any of the child's parents' associations with Canada. The OP should simply keep his mouth shut. As far as Country X knows, the child is born in its soil to its own citizens. If this child is not a citizen at birth, then who is?

You are absolutely correct. When child is born in Country X, they are going to have to grant citizenship of country X. That part does not concern me. The part that concerns me is whether child can be sponsored and brought to Canada as PR or not. Hence the question, whether child is automatically Canadian citizen or just has a right.

Now let's consider 2 scenarios:
a) Let's assume child only has right to claim citizenship: Child is born in Country X, get their citizenship comes to Canada as PR. Next time when he visits Country X, border services going to ask where you coming from? what is your status in that country? Also, this country has entry exit system, so they will know when you left. If you show them your PR card, then there is no problem because PR is not a citizenship.
b) Let assume child is citizen at birth: Born in Country X, gets their citizenship. Comes to Canada as a citizen. Next time he visits country X, child will not be able to leave until one of the Citizenships renounced because at the border control they are going to find out about Canadian citizenship (entry stamp to Canada is placed only in Canadian passport). If anyone is doubting this, I'm happy to send info via private message. So, basically child will not be able to ever visit Country X. So, what is the point of having Country X citizenship, if you never going to be able to visit it?

Thanks.

 

[tracker_01]

The point of the wording is that the person has a RIGHT TO CITIZENSHIP. It doesn't say "person have a RIGHT TO APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP". Not the same thing. Completely different scenario.

May I ask a personal question? Why is it so important not to reveal what Country X is? It would make it a lot easier on the rest of us to understand your unique situation.

I will send a name for Country X via personal message. I haven't disclosed it because it is not germane to my initial question. My question is: whether child is automatically citizen at birth, or just has the right to citizenship?

 

[zardoz]

You are absolutely correct. When child is born in Country X, they are going to have to grant citizenship of country X. That part does not concern me. The part that concerns me is whether child can be sponsored and brought to Canada as PR or not. Hence the question, whether child is automatically Canadian citizen or just has a right.

Again, it's citizenship by Right, not by Grant. Not a "Right to apply".

 

[tracker_01]

It is clear that you a) misunderstand Rabin and b) misquoted it.

a) Can you elaborate on what I misunderstood? b) the part that I omitted is not relevant to my point, hence it has been omitted. The part that I mentioned deals with the father of Rabin was born outside of Canada and had a right to apply to citizenship while the part that I omited deals with Rabin. Father didn't exercise the right prior to 2009, when the new law kicked in and made Rabin ineligible (i.e. father is 1st generation born abroad, Rabin was 2nd generation and after 2009 2nd generations are not entitled to Canadian citizenship. Had father gotten his citizenship prior to 2009, Rabin would be eligible because she would fall under pre 2009 act which allowed 2nd generation).

So, please let me know what I a) misunderstood and b) how omitting 2009 portion is relevant to father's citizenship.

 

[screech339]

I will send a name for Country X via personal message. I haven't disclosed it because it is not germane to my initial question. My question is: whether child is automatically citizen at birth, or just has the right to citizenship?

It's both. The child is automatically citizen at birth by right to citizenship through descent.

 

[tracker_01]

Again, it's citizenship by Right, not by Grant. Not a "Right to apply".

Agreed 100%. Now if you don't mind, let's clarify couple of nuances because I think we are finally getting somewhere.

Citizenship by Right = Automatically citizen at birth (Yes or No)? Also please specify why.
Does someone have ability to choose not to exercise this right? (Yes or No)? Also please specify why.

Thanks.

 

[tracker_01]

It's both. The child is automatically citizen at birth by right to citizenship through descent.

I'm sorry but it cannot be both. When you are automatically citizen, you have no choice. You are citizen whether you like it or not.

When you have a right to citizenship, it is your prerogative, if you want you can exercise your right, if you don't want, you don't exercise.

For instance, when politicians say: I want every child to have a right to a free post-secondary education. They mean you can have free education if you want to. If you don't want, don't go to post-secondary education. It's your prerogative.

Let me know if I'm wrong.

 

[zardoz]

You don't understand it because you are trying to apply it, erroneously, to your current situation. See a lawyer... You so badly want "your" truth to be "The Truth" that nothing anyone says to you to counter that will make any difference.
You've been told how it works. Deal.

 

[tracker_01]

It's a "Right" not a "Grant". That's why that is there. A "Right" is something that you have. A "Grant" is something that you have to request, and can be denied.

Agree with you that Grant is upto discretion of the person who is granting. Right is something that they cannot refuse if you ask for it (i.e. you have a right to that thing). Now, when you have a right, you have option to exercise that right or not exercise. That is why it is important for me to understand if child is automatically citizen (i.e child has no choice) or he has a right to citizenship (i.e. he can ask for it and he cannot be denied but he doesn't get it automatically)

 

[tracker_01]

You don't understand it because you are trying to apply it, erroneously, to your current situation. See a lawyer... You so badly want "your" truth to be "The Truth" that nothing anyone says to you to counter that will make any difference.
You've been told how it works. Deal.

Thanks for your input. I will take a note.

 

[marcus66502]

I will send a name for Country X via personal message. I haven't disclosed it because it is not germane to my initial question. My question is: whether child is automatically citizen at birth, or just has the right to citizenship?

As others have said in here, if you were a Canadian citizen at the time of the child's birth, and if you obtained the Canadian citizenship in your own right (i.e. either by birth in Canada or by naturalization) then your child will be a Canadian citizen at birth no matter where in the world he/she was born. Your child will be a Canadian citizen by what the Government of Canada refers to as "citizenship through first-generation descent."

Note however that inheriting citizenship in this way is limited to first-generation newborns abroad. That is, your foreign-born child who will inherit Canadian citizenship from you will not be able to pass on citizenship in this same manner to any children born to him/her abroad. This was the goal of the 2009 Citizenship Law - to limit citizenship by descent to one generation. Before this law, inheritance was subject to widespread abuse as people were inheriting citizenship several generations down from the Canadian-born ancestor without actually spending a single day in Canada.

This being said, your original question, your whole reason for starting this thread, are so out of the realm of the real, that this doesn't even rise to the level of entertainment. I don't know how many times people have to say it: Citizenship in one country is not relevant to the other. If you are a citizen of Country X, then you should have a right to enter and remain there without having to explain anything to border officials about your stay abroad and especially about your status in Canada. You simply enter each country using that country's passport and nothing else should matter. In particular, border officials in Country X should not see any passports you hold from other countries and if push comes to shove and you're asked why you don't have entry stamps from Canada in your Country X passport, well .... we all know that not all trips are stamped in this world.

 

[screech339]

I'm sorry but it cannot be both. When you are automatically citizen, you have no choice. You are citizen whether you like it or not.

When you have a right to citizenship, it is your prerogative, if you want you can exercise your right, if you don't want, you don't exercise.

For instance, when politicians say: I want every child to have a right to a free post-secondary education. They mean you can have free education if you want to. If you don't want, don't go to post-secondary education. It's your prerogative.

Let me know if I'm wrong.

Actually it is. You have the right to citizenship automatically. If you don't want to exercise your right to Canadian citizenship, you can always renounce your citizenship and you would then LOSE your RIGHT to citizenship. If you don't want your child to have a a right to Canadian citizenship, you have no choice but to renounce yours first before the baby is born. Otherwise, the child's has a right to citizenship, whether child acknowledges it or not. Since the child is a minor, renouncement of citizenship is not recognized since it is not an "informed" decision. The child would have to wait until he/she is an adult be able to be make an informed decision to renounce citizenship. Unfortunately for your child, since child will not have Country X citizenship, Canada will not allow adult to renounce citizenship if adult becomes stateless.

 

[tracker_01]

As others have said in here, if you were a Canadian citizen at the time of the child's birth, and if you obtained the Canadian citizenship in your own right (i.e. either by birth in Canada or by naturalization) then your child will be a Canadian citizen at birth no matter where in the world he/she was born. Your child will be a Canadian citizen by what the Government of Canada refers to as "citizenship through first-generation descent."

Note however that inheriting citizenship in this way is limited to first-generation newborns abroad. That is, your foreign-born child who will inherit Canadian citizenship from you will not be able to pass on citizenship in this same manner to any children born to him/her abroad. This was the goal of the 2009 Citizenship Law - to limit citizenship by descent to one generation. Before this law, inheritance was subject to widespread abuse as people were inheriting citizenship several generations down from the Canadian-born ancestor without actually spending a single day in Canada.

This being said, your original question, your whole reason for starting this thread, are so out of the realm of the real, that this doesn't even rise to the level of entertainment. I don't know how many times people have to say it: Citizenship in one country is not relevant to the other. If you are a citizen of Country X, then you should have a right to enter and remain there without having to explain anything to border officials about your stay abroad and especially about your status in Canada. You simply enter each country using that country's passport and nothing else should matter. In particular, border officials in Country X should not see any passports you hold from other countries and if push comes to shove and you're asked why you don't have entry stamps from Canada in your Country X passport, well .... we all know that not all trips are stamped in this world.

Look. Just saying your child is automatically Canadian is simple. However, I have provided court cases that seem to support my point. So, rather than questioning what happens when you enter/leave country X, let's stick to main point. Is child born abroad automatically Canadian or just has right to Citizenship? Simply making statements without substantiating them is easy, but proving your case is difficult. I would respectfully ask that participants of this thread chose latter than former.

Like I said, I spoke to 3 lawyers. 1 of them said child automatically Canadian, 2 said has right to Citizenship. One of the lawyers went further to say the following:
-Some people chose to sponsor their child born abroad, bring them to Canada and naturalize, so that their grandchildren, should grandchildren be born abroad, are not caught by 1st generation limit.
-I had cases when naturalized citizen sponsored their child successfully.

This lawyer was based out of Vancouver, where I suspect a lot of Chinese immigrants are. As you know China doesn't allow dual citizenship.

So, I stick to my guns until someone proves me otherwise. If you find this entertaining, it is your prerogative. I certainly don't, because this issue is very important to me.

If someone in this forum has done this, please identify yourself as such, or send me a private message.

Thanks.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

So, I stick to my guns until someone proves me otherwise. If you find this entertaining, it is your prerogative. I certainly don't, because this issue is very important to me.

If someone in this forum has done this, please identify yourself as such, or send me a private message.

Stick to your guns and apply to sponsor your child. When the app is returned because your child is already a citizen, you will have your definitive answer.

You will not find someone on the forum who has done this because it is just not possible.