How to ensure your child does not get Canadian citizenship?

[tracker_01]

Dear screech,

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it, as this is very important issue for me. Please don't interpret this as being argumentative, I'm just trying to clarify:

Case 1: The rule is the child's parents must have Canadian citizenship at time of child's birth. The father was not Canadian at time of birth, thus child has no claim to citizenship. Your child has a Canadian father as time of birth. The child thus has citizenship at birth, whether he/she claimed for it or not.

Case 1: Article clearly states "What makes the case unusual is that Gabriel Chan was born to a Canadian father, but had not made an application to declare his Canadian citizenship until after his arrest". So it seems clear that his father was Canadian. This line where it says had not made application to declare is talking about Mr. Chan and not his father. Also, later in the subject it states:"....his father had become a citizen in 1971" Am I missing something here? If I'm right (i.e. his father was Canadian citizen), then this case is similar to mine.

Case 2: The applicant was born when the father was not registered as Canadian. Thus applicant could not claim any Canadian citizenship. Goes back to rule is that one of the parents must be Canadian at time of birth. The applicant's father was NOT Canadian at time of his birth. Thus lost claim to citizenship by descent. In other words, never had any claim to citizenship. Again this does not apply to your child since you have Canadian citizenship at time of child's birth.

Case 2: Are you slightly contradicting yourself? What I mean is, if your initial argument is right (i.e. child automatically becomes citizen), then how can his father in Case 2 be not Canadian if he was 1st generation born abroad to a Canadian parent? Since you indicate that father is NOT Canadian (so did judge) at the time of applicant's birth, isn't this proving my argument that citizenship is NOT passed automatically at birth? Aren't then you are admitting that child only has right to the citizenship and not automatic citizenship?

Looking forward hearing from you.

 

[tracker_01]

Renounce your Canadian citizenship before child birth, resume your Canadian citizenship after child birth.

Once you renounce Canadian citizenship, you cannot simply resume it. After renouncement, you first need to be admitted as PR, and then you can resume Canadian citizenship.

Thanks.

 

[tracker_01]

I go back to my original point given I cannot see how even if the the OP does not apply or register the childs citizenship formally that how in effect a citizen can be sponsored to be a PR without renouncing which cannot happen for a minor anyway.

Maybe I missing something but surely the moment the OP fills in the PR sponsorship application as the primary sponsor and father of a child born abroad to a citizen that immigration would likely reject the application as invalid given the child already has residence rights in Canada whether citizenship claimed / registered formally or not.

You are right, citizen cannot be sponsored and be PR. However, a person with right to citizenship (i.e. not citizen until right is exercised) should be able to be sponsored. That is essentially the whole point of this thread, to find out if I'm right or wrong. If someone in this community had done this, it will be very helpful.

 

[tracker_01]

You don't say what the other country is--and you don't have to--so I don't know if it is one with a functioning democratic sphere or one where you might go to jail for criticizing the law, but if it were me and it were important to me for the child to have citizenship of that country, I would attempt to secure it anyway and work my way up the chain to see if an exception would be made somewhere--as the child clearly does not exercise any choice in the matter of being Canadian. If that doesn't work, I would take it to the press--although nobody would likely care until it becomes a pressing material issue for the child, i.e. it couldn't move back with its parents when you need to return to take care of elders. This country seems to have some truly not well thought out, draconian, impractical and not very flexible laws on citizenship that perhaps your case might cause a rethink?

It is very important to me that child secures Country X citizenship. However, my main question for this thread, is child automatically citizen, or just has right to citizenship? If you think automatically citizen, then can you comment 2 cases mentioned previously, where child born abroad was deemed to have a right to citizenship (i.e. not automatically citizen). Thanks.

 

[zardoz]

You are right, citizen cannot be sponsored and be PR. However, a person with right to citizenship (i.e. not citizen until right is exercised) should be able to be sponsored. That is essentially the whole point of this thread, to find out if I'm right or wrong. If someone in this community had done this, it will be very helpful.

It really doesn't matter how you try to spin this, the Government of Canada has stated in the link that I posted, the following statement.

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/japan-japon/consular_services_consulaires/citizenship-citoyennete.aspx?lang=eng
Quote
Canadian Citizenship — Children Born Abroad

The proof of Canadian citizenship for a Canadian born abroad is a Canadian citizenship certificate. A child born outside Canada to a Canadian parent and meeting certain requirements is a Canadian citizen. However the child will not possess a birth certificate issued by a Canadian governmental authority and for proof of Canadian citizenship, the child will need to obtain a Canadian citizenship certificate. An application must be submitted to obtain this certificate.

 

[tracker_01]

It really doesn't matter how you try to spin this, the Government of Canada has stated in the link that I posted, the following statement.

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/japan-japon/consular_services_consulaires/citizenship-citoyennete.aspx?lang=eng
Quote
Canadian Citizenship — Children Born Abroad

The proof of Canadian citizenship for a Canadian born abroad is a Canadian citizenship certificate. A child born outside Canada to a Canadian parent and meeting certain requirements is a Canadian citizen. However the child will not possess a birth certificate issued by a Canadian governmental authority and for proof of Canadian citizenship, the child will need to obtain a Canadian citizenship certificate. An application must be submitted to obtain this certificate.

Thanks for response. What does "meeting certain requirements mean"? Can one of these certain requirements be "child's parent has to claim child's right to citizenship"? So, I don't think it is clear. If anyone has had tried doing what I'm trying, please identify as such. Thanks.

 

[links18]

Thanks for response. What does "meeting certain requirement mean"? Can one of these certain requirement be "child's parent has to claim child's right to citizenship via application for citizenship certificate"? So, I don't think it is clear. Therefore, it's best to rely on precedent court cases. Thanks.

Meeting certain requirements means that one of its parents was either born on Canada or naturalized, i.e. Not a citizen by descent. No matter how hard you want something to be true, it isn't going to make a difference. Any children you have from this point forward will be Canadian from birth, even if they are born on Mars, unless you renounce your Canadian citizenship first. Your future children are stuck being Canadian for better or worse.

 

[tracker_01]

Meeting certain requirements means that one of its parents was either born on Canada or naturalized, i.e. Not a citizen by descent. No matter how hard you want something to be true, it isn't going to make a difference. Any children you have from this point forward will be Canadian from birth, even if they are born on Mars, unless you renounce your Canadian citizenship first. Your future children are stuck being Canadian for better or worse.

Fair enough. Can you then explain why in Rabin v. Canada under paragraph {27} where judge stated: "she was not a citizen ... but was eligible to apply for proof of citizenship" You can read full decision here: (go to federal court decisions website and search for Rabin v. Canada)

Applicant's father had a right to citizenship by descent (or was he citizen automatically?). At the time applicant was born, her father could pass on citizenship to 2nd generation, that was permitted by the law at the time. So, had father been automatically citizen, why he couldn't pass on to his child? Since father was not able to pass to the child, means he was not a citizen when child was born. Hence, his citizenship is not automatic, but rather he needed to actively claim his right to a citizenship.

Thanks.

 

[screech339]

Thanks for response. What does "meeting certain requirements mean"? Can one of these certain requirements be "child's parent has to claim child's right to citizenship"? So, I don't think it is clear. If anyone has had tried doing what I'm trying, please identify as such. Thanks.

The certain requirements is that the parent is canadian born or naturalized canadian. Had the parent been canadian by descent, it wouldn't meet the requirements.

If canadians by descent were able to pass on citizenship, then "certain requirement" wording would not be required to be spelled out.

That wording you bolded is meant to separate naturalized / canadian born parents from canadian parents of descent.

 

[zardoz]

And again, more "official" clarification from the Government of Canada.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=365&top=5

My children were born on or after April 17, 2009
Your children will only be Canadian at birth if you:

were born in Canada, or
became a naturalized Canadian citizen before they were born. (If you were adopted, see the exception below.)
There are exceptions to these rules.

 

[screech339]

Fair enough. Can you then explain why in Rabin v. Canada under paragraph {27} where judge stated: "she was not a citizen ... but was eligible to apply for proof of citizenship" You can read full decision here: (go to federal court decisions website and search for Rabin v. Canada)

Applicant's father had a right to citizenship by descent (or was he citizen automatically?). At the time applicant was born, her father could pass on citizenship to 2nd generation, that was permitted by the law at the time. So, had father been automatically citizen, why he couldn't pass on to his child? Since father was not able to pass to the child, means he was not a citizen when child was born. Hence, his citizenship is not automatic, but rather he needed to actively claim his right to a citizenship.

Thanks.

By the way, the rules were different before april 17, 2009. The rulings were based on pre-April 17, 2009 laws. Technically, those rulings cannot be used an example as they were based on previous citizenship laws. Now since April 17, 2009 citizenship law, the law states that all children born abroad to Canadian born / naturalized Canadian are automatically Canadian. If you go to court in Canada stating that your child is not Canadian by descent, you would surely lose based on current citizenship law on the fact that your child would be born under the latest citizenship law.

 

[tracker_01]

By the way, the rules were different before april 17, 2009. The rulings were based on pre-April 17, 2009 laws. Technically, those rulings cannot be used an example as they were based on previous citizenship laws. Now since April 17, 2009 citizenship law, the law states that all children born abroad to Canadian born / naturalized Canadian are automatically Canadian. If you go to court in Canada stating that your child is not Canadian by descent, you would surely lose based on current citizenship law on the fact that your child would be born under the latest citizenship law.

Pre 2009 and Post 2009 Citizenship Acts are identical when it comes to this particular issue. Here is proof (you can compare for yourself online):

Pre 2009 Act: Part I The Right to Citizenship - 3 (1) Subject to this Act, a person is a citizen if (b) the person was born outside Canada after February 14, 1977 and at the time of his birth one of his parents, other than a parent who adopted him, was a citizen;

Post 2009 Act: Part I The Right to Citizenship - 3 (1) Subject to this Act, a person is a citizen if (b) the person was born outside Canada after February 14, 1977 and at the time of his birth one of his parents, other than a parent who adopted him, was a citizen;

So, they are same word for word. Therefore, those decisions would be applicable today. The only difference in the Post 2009 act is that they added a 1st generation limit under separate section: 3(3) which did not exist in Pre 2009 Act.

 

[thecoolguysam]

@ tracker_01

If you don't mind me asking and if it is not too personal, what are you basically trying to achieve and why?

 

[tracker_01]

@ tracker_01

If you don't mind me asking and if it is not too personal, what are you basically trying to achieve and why?

Look, try to understand my situation. I spoke to 3 lawyers and got different results. I spoke to CIC, they said they cannot answer because they are not allowed to give legal advice. Now, my only option is to talk to people who had actually done this. There are many countries that do not allow dual citizenship (e.g. China, India, etc.). Therefore, there must have been people who wanted to preserve their other citizenship on their child. The reason I posted here is: I thought there might be some members of the community who had actually done what I'm trying to achieve. If there are such people, please identify as such. Feel free to send me personal message if public discussion is not your thing.

So far, most folks here have referenced some material on official government websites. However, they do not realize that this "general" information is given such that it covers 99.9% of cases. Of course government website is going to say that child born to naturalized Canadian citizen abroad is Canadian, because 99.9% of people would choose their child to have Canadian citizenship. If they had stated: Child born abroad will have right to claim citizenship and this right needs to be actively claimed, it is just going to sound confusing. Hence, they simplify as much as possible.

At the end of the day, the government is bound by the law, and it seems that no one here has been able to convince me on legal basis that I'm wrong. I have provided references from the Act and previous court cases, and nobody seems to be able to prove me on legal basis that I'm wrong.

To prove my point, let's assume my child is born abroad and I do not claim his Canadian citizenship. Child does not come to Canada, and stays abroad for 2 years when I file for citizenship search (service offered by CIC form CIT 0058, costs $75). Do you think they are going to find any records? Of course not, because my child never exercised his right to a citizenship. So, I will have a paper from Canadian government stating that child is not Canadian.

Again, my main objective is to find someone who had actually done (or couldn't do) what I'm trying to do. If there is anyone in this community, please identify as such or send a private message to me.

Thanks.

 

[marcus66502]

@ tracker_01

If you don't mind me asking and if it is not too personal, what are you basically trying to achieve and why?

Actually, a better question for the OP would be this: Are you REALLY trying to accomplish something of a personal nature here or did you start this post just to engage in academic discussion? I'm sorry but I can't help suspecting the latter option.

The OP is not really sharing why he so desperately wants country X's citizenship and that's fine because it's largely irrelevant. I actually looked into citizenship laws for most countries a couple of years back, just out of curiosity and, with minor quirks here and there, they mostly run similar to each other.

The common theme to most countries is that there is no ius soli citizenship (i.e. citizenship just through birth in the country alone), unless this would leave you stateless -- e.g. parents are unknown, or you can establish that you don't inherit either of parents' citizenships.

However, from my research, I don't recall seeing a single case of a country that won't grant citizenship to a child born on its soil to parents who are both citizens of that country as well. I'm fairly certain in this case the child would have an automatic right to citizenship in that birth country, and it's completely irrelevant that he/she also happens to acquire another citizenship at birth. Because of this, I have good reason to suspect the OP is just engaging in academic discussion here, not trying to accomplish anything difficult or complicated.

If I understand the situation correctly (child born in country X to citizens of country X) and if what the OP is saying is true: that country X's authorities have told him they won't grant the child citizenship if he/she also got another citizenship, then I'd tell the OP to dig higher up the chain of command in his country because those 'authorities' either didn't know what they were talking about or think it's ok to just make up their own law at the spur of the moment.