Different citizenship benefits

[CanadianCountry]

@screech,
You are again taking a narrow meaning of "representation", and you said so many things that it's gonna take some time to reply.

Just one counter argument, the citizens who didn't vote, or citizens who voted for the losing party still have representation. Thanks to secret ballot system, they can reach out to MPs/MLAs when they need some assistance.

I have heard many horror stories from my close PR friends, that they contacted their rep, and were denied assistance of any sort.

Let me share one story, one family of three with a kid of age 2 was granted PR only to parents. No PR to the child (child in perfect health). Dad moved to Canada. Mom stayed in her home country with the child. Mom PR visa was about to expire. They pleaded the CIC, ministers, MPs, MLAs but no assistance. Then to save moms PR, dad left his survival job to go back and take care of the child, mom came to Canada all alone. A month or two after the child finally got PR and the dad and child came to Canada.

The family faced a situation which was created through a bureaucratic process, and had a simple fix. But as a PR the dad had no representation, no one to hear.

You are saying that because PR didn't vote for the MP in their region, MP doesn't look after PR's interests. What about the ones that did vote and didn't get their MP in. They are also in the same boat as PR's since your argument of "not looking after their interests" applies. So it seems that PR and Canadian who didn't win their vote are equal in problem of not looking after their "interest".

PR's can still sponsor their parents/grandparents, sponsor their spouse/children to come to Canada for PR. Your "not looking after PR's interests" would apply if PR were forbidden to sponsor anyone for PR, only Canadians. So your argument of "not looking after their PR interests" is while valid but weak. PR will get the same services that Canadians have voted to get the services for. In other words, when Canadian's interests are looked after, PR's interests are also looked after.

 

[screech339]

@ screech,
You are again taking a narrow meaning of "representation", and you said so many things that it's gonna take some time to reply.

Just one counter argument, the citizens who didn't vote, or citizens who voted for the losing party still have representation. Thanks to secret ballot system, they can reach out to MPs/MLAs when they need some assistance.

I have heard many horror stories from my close PR friends, that they contacted their rep, and were denied assistance of any sort.

Let me share one story, one family of three with a kid of age 2 was granted PR only to parents. No PR to the child (child in perfect health). Dad moved to Canada. Mom stayed in her home country with the child. Mom PR visa was about to expire. They pleaded the CIC, ministers, MPs, MLAs but no assistance. Then to save moms PR, dad left his survival job to go back and take care of the child, mom came to Canada all alone. A month or two after the child finally got PR and the dad and child came to Canada.

The family faced a situation which was created through a bureaucratic process, and had a simple fix. But as a PR the dad had no representation, no one to hear.

Yes it is a sad and difficult period that they had to go through. It is one of the major drawback's of PR parents of having a child outside Canada. They are not alone in their plights. Their decision to deliver the baby outside Canada was their decision and must accept the consequences of it. They could have had the baby inside Canada and save themselves the headache. But sometimes it is out of their control, in a sense. But that doesn't absolve the fact they made a decision to live/work outside Canada as PRs and must accept the consequences of that decision. That includes getting pregnant and having a baby outside Canada.

My children will not be able to pass on Canadian citizenship (2nd Generation Canadian) if they have a child outside Canada. So I will remind them and they must accept the consequences of their actions. They can't complain to me that they cannot pass on citizenship as they were fully aware of the consequences. If they choose to have a child outside Canada, that's their choice and accept that their baby will not have Canadian citizenship. The baby would have to be sponsored as PR first before coming back to Canada. They got to accept that hassle of PR sponsorship if they choose to have baby outside Canada out of their own free will. They have to be accountable to their actions/decisions.

 

[CanadianCountry]

The child was born before any of the parents were PR. It's not the case of PR giving birth out of Canada.

The family of three were all non-PR foreign citizens, applied for PR in a joint application. Parents were granted PR, but the child was not.

Again we are having a misunderstanding.

Yes it is a sad and difficult period that they had to go through. It is one of the major drawback's of PR parents of having a child outside Canada. They are not alone in their plights. Their decision to deliver the baby outside Canada was their decision and must accept the consequences of it. They could have had the baby inside Canada and save themselves the headache. But sometimes it is out of their control, in a sense. But that doesn't absolve the fact they made a decision to live/work outside Canada as PRs and must accept the consequences of that decision. That includes getting pregnant and having a baby outside Canada.

 

[screech339]

The child was born before any of the parents were PR. It's not the case of PR giving birth out of Canada.

The family of three were all non-PR foreign citizens, applied for PR in a joint application. Parents were granted PR, but the child was not.

Again we are having a misunderstanding.

Technically they shouldn't have landed without the child being granted PR. They should have returned the COPR and explain that CIC forgot to add the child to COPR. A simple fix on CIC's part since the child's paperwork was completed as well. CIC only had to add the child to COPR. The parents went ahead and landed without the child being granted PR. While it is CIC's mistake to not include the child for PR, it is the parents' mistake to go ahead and land without the child's PR. That was not a smart move on their part. Had they returned the COPR and waited for the new COPR to include child, they wouldn't be in the mess that they were in. That bureaucratic nightmare is both CIC and the parents' fault. (Mostly parents' fault for landing without child) Not all 100% CIC's fault.

 

[CanadianCountry]

The story was mentioned above to support that there is NO representation. If you believe you have representation you are hallucinating and it's only your imagination.

As per your solution, the family should have returned their landing papers and passport to their local Canadian embassy. Seek new visa stamps and landing papers for self, and request for processing PR for their child and COPR for their child.

In the meanwhile the risks were, that the processing for child takes who knows how long. Maybe one year maybe more. Then their visas get expired for sure (and it almost happened for the mom). In the situation many families do not TRUST the CIC or the govt, that later they may deny PRs to parents as well on any kind of plea.

Many fear that the CIC may say that you have to land within a timeframe, if you do not then you have no right, apply again for all. Or maybe they change the laws/rules again so who know whether they will qualify again or not.

Technically they shouldn't have landed without the child being granted PR. They should have returned the COPR and explain that they have to add the child to COPR. They went ahead and landed without the child being granted PR. While it is CIC's mistake to not include the child for PR, it is their mistake to go ahead and land without the child's PR. That bureaucratic nightmare is both CIC and the parents' fault. Not all 100% CIC's fault.

 

[screech339]

The story was mentioned above to support that there is NO representation. If you believe you have representation you are hallucinating and it's only your imagination.

As per your solution, the family should have returned their landing papers and passport to their local Canadian embassy. Seek new visa stamps and landing papers for self, and request for processing PR for their child and COPR for their child.

In the meanwhile the risks were, that the processing for child takes who knows how long. Maybe one year maybe more. Then their visas get expired for sure (and it almost happened for the mom). In the situation many families do not TRUST the CIC or the govt, that later they may deny PRs to parents as well on any kind of plea.

Many fear that the CIC may say that you have to land within a timeframe, if you do not then you have no right, apply again for all. Or maybe they change the laws/rules again so who know whether they will qualify again or not.

Why would the processing for child would take 1 year or more than the paperwork for child was already done. It was only an omission of child on COPR. CIC would have added the child to COPR within probably days. I can understand if it took up to a year if the child was born and has not had any medical and paperwork submitted during parents PR processing. Not for a child that was already processed.

Again, as for representation, the parents made the goof up and they want the MP to come help them fix their mistake?

As for fear of having to land within a timeframe, there is no fear if they had returned the COPR and added the child. The new COPR would have then have a date to land by (usually the parent's earliest medical 1 year anniversary). Don't understand the fear behind that.

As for representation, this is no difference from a Canadian being charged in a foreign country. Canadian authorities will say to him/her, there isn't much we can do to help you since you went to the country out of your free will and you were caught smuggling drugs into/out of the country. You made the mistake and you want our help to bail you out? Follow the laws of the countries you traveled to and you will be fine. The most they can provide on his/her behalf is to make sure he/she won't get the death penalty.

Besides, PR do get representation through their MP. They can approach the MP for help. The MP doesn't and won't know that you are PR unless you told them. MP doesn't know who is PR and who is Canadian when they come in their office. You don't approach a MP saying "Hi, I'm a PR named John". You say "Hi, I'm John and I need your help". MP would likely help you not knowing if you are PR or not.

 

[CanadianCountry]

1. In the above story, the mom who stayed back, waited the full time but still received no COPR for the kid. Her COPR and landing papers in all technicality EXPIRED even before they heard anything from the CIC.

2. As per your Canadian caught smuggling or doing crime abroad reference. Please look at this story:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/12/australia-offers-to-pay-jail-costs-for-bali-nine-pair-if-their-lives-are-spared
Not saying that Canada do such in a similar circumstance. I know for sure as my gut says it, that in a similar situation Canada will let them rot. Now lets say if this happened here, naturalized citizen caught smuggling, govt will let them rot. In addition, they will lose citizenship.

3. Another story:
A PR family, husband Real Estate professional and mom IT Analyst decide to grow their family and have their first kid. They had TWINS. Mom went on maternity to take care of newborns. Now the kids are toddlers. Mom wants to go back to work as all the maternity/EI benefits have expired. They wanted to bring in husband's mother to assist in care. Applied visitors visa for the husband's mother (grandmother) but got denied for no reason.

They have no say, they hired a full-time care paid almost 2000-3000 dollars per month for care. Now the mother is taking her children back to her home country because they cant afford it any longer.

Why would the processing for child would take 1 year or more than the paperwork for child was already done. It was only an omission of child on COPR. CIC would have added the child to COPR within probably days. I can understand if it took up to a year if the child was born and has not had any medical and paperwork submitted during parents PR processing. Not for a child that was already processed.

Again, as for representation, the parents made the goof up and they want the MP to come help them fix their mistake?

As for fear of having to land within a timeframe, there is no fear if they had returned the COPR and added the child. The new COPR would have then have a date to land by (usually the parent's earliest medical 1 year anniversary). Don't understand the fear behind that.

As for representation, this is no difference from a Canadian being charged in a foreign country. Canadian authorities will say to him/her, there isn't much we can do to help you since you went to the country out of your free will and you were caught smuggling drugs into/out of the country. You made the mistake and you want our help to bail you out? Follow the laws of the countries you traveled to and you will be fine. The most they can provide on his/her behalf is to make sure he/she won't get the death penalty.

 

[screech339]

1. In the above story, the mom who stayed back, waited the full time but still received no COPR for the kid. Her COPR and landing papers in all technicality EXPIRED even before they heard anything from the CIC.

That is because the family messed it all up by going ahead and landing without the child. This screwed up CIC processing of getting paperwork corrected. I wasn't surprised that it took that long to get child's PR straightened away. Again had they returned the COPR, they would probably gotten new COPR with child added within days. You can't use them as an example. You have to provide example of same case where it took 1 year to get child added to COPR after returning it that was completed in the first place.

2. As per your Canadian caught smuggling or doing crime abroad reference. Please look at this story:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/12/australia-offers-to-pay-jail-costs-for-bali-nine-pair-if-their-lives-are-spared
Not saying that Canada do such in a similar circumstance. I know for sure as my gut says it, that in a similar situation Canada will let them rot. Now lets say if this happened here, naturalized citizen caught smuggling, govt will let them rot. In addition, they will lose citizenship.

I wouldn't be surprised if Canada does let them rot. Like I said, do the crime, do the time, especially in a foreign country.

3. Another story:
A PR family, husband Real Estate professional and mom IT Analyst decide to grow their family and have their first kid. They had TWINS. Mom went on maternity to take care of newborns. Now the kids are toddlers. Mom wants to go back to work as all the maternity/EI benefits have expired. They wanted to bring in husband's mother to assist in care. Applied visitors visa for the husband's mother (grandmother) but got denied for no reason.

They have no say, they hired a full-time care paid almost 2000-3000 dollars per month for care. Now the mother is taking her children back to her home country because they cant afford it any longer.

What does example 3 got to do with PR's right being denied? Every Canadian and PR would have to go through the process if they want their parents to come to Canada for supervisa or regular visa. If CIC agents believes that the parents will not leave Canada at end of visit, CIC has the right to deny issuing visa. This applies to everyone's parents, Canadian and PRs. So the example you provided is not a good example of how a PR's rights is different from Canadian's.

That example is what every PR and Canadian have to face in raising their own kids when they don't have family near them. I would love to have my parents with me but they live in another province far away from us. We pretty much are on our own in raising our family. We are no difference from the example.

 

[CanadianCountry]

Clarification to 3. In such a situation a personal guarantee or a bond can be made to serve upon the PR that his/her parents will leave Canada after their visit. This is infact ingenious way of CIC to create hardships for PR families, which is not so much the case for 2nd (or more) gen citizens.

People who are citizens do not have to seek permission to get their parents. Your parents can come from another provice if you need them and if they are willing. But for PRs and first gen citizens, its not the same.

What does example 3 got to do with PR's right being denied? Every Canadian and PR would have to go through the process if they want their parents to come to Canada for supervisa or regular visa. If CIC agents believes that the parents will not leave Canada at end of visit, CIC has the right to deny issuing visa. This applies to everyone's parents, Canadian and PRs. So the example you provided is not a good example of how a PR's rights is different from Canadian's.

That example is what every PR and Canadian have to face in raising their own kids when they don't have family near them. I would love to have my parents with me but they live in another province far away from us. We pretty much are on our own in raising our family. We are no difference from the example.

 

[screech339]

Clarification to 3. In such a situation a personal guarantee or a bond can be made to serve upon the PR that his/her parents will leave Canada after their visit. This is infact ingenious way of CIC to create hardships for PR families, which is not so much the case for 2nd (or more) gen citizens.

People who are citizens do not have to seek permission to get their parents. Your parents can come from another provice if you need them and if they are willing. But for PRs and first gen citizens, its not the same.

Canadians still have to put in a personal guarantee or a bond to be made to serve that his/her parents will leave Canada after their visit too. When my wife get Canadian citizenship, she will still have to apply the same rules to get her parents visa / supervisa to come here. So again don't see your point here.

 

[CanadianCountry]

In short, when your posted assurances are garbaged and your requests are all denied. And your parents are denied visitor visa not once but multiple times, you will come around.

I guess for some learning comes from life experiences and not from example.

But i think even after all that denials you will still think its your fault somehow. You are wrong since nothing can be wrong with the CIC.

Canadians still have to put in a personal guarantee or a bond to be made to serve that his/her parents will leave Canada after their visit too. When my wife get Canadian citizenship, she will still have to apply the same rules to get her parents to come here. So again don't see your argument here.

 

[mathlete]

@screech339

You continue to draw false equivalences and employ flawed logic in order to try and defend an INDEFENSIBLE position:

1. Saying "All tax payers should have a vote" is not the same as saying "People who don't pay taxes shouldn't vote"

2. Having access to services does not justify not having a say in what services are offered.

3. What the US does or doesn't do, neither serves to justify nor repudiate the way that Canada operates.

If you are particularly opposed to point (2) then perhaps we should just appoint El Presidente` for life who can just stipulate how our money is spent and then no one needs to vote.

That's working out really well for Venezuela and Cuba.

 

[screech339]

In short, when your posted assurances are garbaged and your requests are all denied. And your parents are denied visitor visa not once but multiple times, you will come around.

I guess for some learning comes from life experiences and not from example.

But i think even after all that denials you will still think its your fault somehow. You are wrong since nothing can be wrong with the CIC.

If my wife's parents were to get denied over and over a visa or supervisa, it would means that we failed to convince CIC that her parents will leave Canada. That's all there is to it.

If there is a case of being denied over and over, there is more to the story than just parents being overseas. Other factors are in play, like lone parents with no attachment to home country, it can be anything. I won't accept that they were denied on a whim. They were denied for a reason that CIC believe that parents will not leave.

 

[screech339]

@ screech339

You continue to draw false equivalences and employ flawed logic in order to try and defend an INDEFENSIBLE position:

1. Saying "All tax payers should have a vote" is not the same as saying "People who don't pay taxes shouldn't vote"

2. Having access to services does not justify not having a say in what services are offered.

3. What the US does or doesn't do, neither serves to justify nor repudiate the way that Canada operates.

If you are particularly opposed to point (2) then perhaps we should just appoint El Presidente` for life who can just stipulate how our money is spent and then no one needs to vote.

That's working out really well for Venezuela and Cuba.

Same goes for your "taxation without representation" reasoning. You are only applying one part of the reasoning to suit your needs. So I still stand by "taxation without representation" doesn't apply here. I'm afraid that you are in the minority in that belief. Ask any Canadian around you that you deserve Canadian citizenship because you pay taxes. They will all laugh at you.

 

[mnagah]

As a naturalized Canadian if you give birth outside of Canada does your child automatically become Canadian?