Conditional Visa's - It's Happening!

[rjessome]

What I find it very interesting that so many inlanders have concerns about this.

So a lot of individuals seen to think this will do no good what so ever. I assume you think CIC did not research this at all? And the general population was not polled (side note: they were)? If you have not noticed the system is broken, there is no money to throw at it. Bugdet cuts, not increase.

How would you fix it? or would you just enjoy it the way it is?

They can't just make laws up without backgrounders and public consultations. They did all that. See here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2010/2010-09-27.asp

Actually, what struck me the most in that lady's story was that the relationship lasted insanely long - some 3+ years if I remember correctly? - and all the while her partner was a picture of love and loyalty.
There's the problem with this system right away - people can still keep lying for a required amount of time, but those-who-would-be-fraudulent can also very easily find a way to stall with the application until after the 2-year mark and avoid scanning just like that.

However, the biggest issue I'm having with this are the consequences it will have on the evaluation process. VOs will suddenly be given this magic eraser that could fix every and any mistake in the initial assessment, which is in theory supposed to make the process less rigorous, faster and more efficient... and that's fine, but from the phrasing of the proposition it seems not everyone will be flagged as a possible MOC. Three ways I think this can go: 1) VOs flag 'fishy' couples and scan the rest just as rigorously as now, effectively rewarding people for looking like fraudsters with speedy residence. Oops? 2) VOs decide to play it safe and just flag everyone, thus putting unreasonable demand on the follow-up process and investigation, jamming the system on that side. Oops? 3) VOs decide to loosen up on everyone but flag only those who seem suspicious, which in turn encourages a flood of MOCs counting on the fact they won't be caught and flagged, because not everyone will be and with the whole process shortened it's well worth the gamble. Major oops?

I'm also not enjoying how vague this "automatic lifting of the condition" is. So what, if for 2 years no one comes ringing on your door telling you to go home, you're good? Or would your partner need to report you? Or would you have to check in with your probation immigration officer every month to show everything is OK?
What happens to those who are issued a removal order, but presumably won't be stripped of their right to appeal - hanging in limbo as semi-residents for years, or keeping their PR rights until the appeal is done (a problem, obviously), something else?

I don't think genuine couples will be hurt by this in any way - unless the "automatic lifting of condition" ends up being not so automatic - but I also don't believe it will do much for the MOC issue.

fleo, you make some excellent points. Here's some other things to consider. Do you think CIC is going to tell you that your relationship has been flagged for fraud??? NO! What about real marriage breakdown? What about when Canadian children are born? What about backlogging the appeal system (which is already backlogged)? What about false accusations of abuse to protect PR status?

If any of you think that VO's are going to use this as a way of rubber stamping applications you are crazy. Did you know that every applicant who successfully gets a TRV and then arrives in Canada and makes a refugee claim is reported back to the visa post and seen as a "black mark"? Why do you think it's so hard to get a TRV from certain countries? What do you think a VO is going to do once reports of conditional PRs being discovered as MOCs IN Canada start rolling in? Their "error" will be the cause of backlogging the system and lots of bad publicity. The government is going to direct them to be even MORE diligent in their scrutiny. What do you think that means? Longer processing times! CIC does NOT want to deal with this IN Canada! Applicants better take note. Never before has proper preparation of their application meant more than it will after these changes come into effect. I also predict an increase in interviews. They will become much more the norm than they are now. Interviews ALSO slow down the process.

I think this is a good thing for the MINORITY, not the majority. I also see it as a political move because helping a victim of marriage fraud plays well with the public. BUT you have to understand that only about 5% of sponsors report marriage fraud. So now 95% of genuine couples will now have to go through so much more scrutiny to protect those 5%. I'm not against helping the victims. Not at all!!! We have laws already in place that are SUPPOSED to help them. But the problem is that nobody enforces them. I also believe that H&C applications are going to go up BIG time with this. Oy vay!

Immigration law is complex. What you see on the surface is not the whole picture.

BTW, the woman you were discussing had been in a long relationship with her husband. They worked hard to get the sponsorship done. She was also 30 years older than him. Fraudsters having staying power. Think about it, a smart fraudster like him who was easily able to keep up the pretence of the marriage while she travelled back and forth to his country would just wait until they were already married for two years before applying. No conditions on his PR visa then. It's not rocket science for someone who really wants it.

 

[fleo]

I assume you think CIC did not research this at all? And the general population was not polled (side note: they were)?

There is always research, and there is often polling of general public, and yet somehow, miraculously, bad laws are passed anyway. (And saving money by adding a step - with all the people who need to enforce it and all the people who can appeal it - seems like a funny way to go about things.)

So, rjessome, you think this will in fact make the screening process harsher and more rigorous? On the >2yr couples, anyway... which would probably give a funny math: longer and harsher process + a two year condition afterwards will end up being significantly longer (and more unpleasant) than just waiting two years before applying. LOL, is that what CIC is counting on? Making couples postpone the application and weed out the fraudsters right away? Because it's not gonna work that way

 

[angelbrat]

They can't just make laws up without backgrounders and public consultations. They did all that. See here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2010/2010-09-27.asp

fleo, you make some excellent points. Here's some other things to consider. Do you think CIC is going to tell you that your relationship has been flagged for fraud??? NO! What about real marriage breakdown? What about when Canadian children are born? What about backlogging the appeal system (which is already backlogged)? What about false accusations of abuse to protect PR status?

If any of you think that VO's are going to use this as a way of rubber stamping applications you are crazy. Did you know that every applicant who successfully gets a TRV and then arrives in Canada and makes a refugee claim is reported back to the visa post and seen as a "black mark"? Why do you think it's so hard to get a TRV from certain countries? What do you think a VO is going to do once reports of conditional PRs being discovered as MOCs IN Canada start rolling in? Their "error" will be the cause of backlogging the system and lots of bad publicity. The government is going to direct them to be even MORE diligent in their scrutiny. What do you think that means? Longer processing times! CIC does NOT want to deal with this IN Canada! Applicants better take note. Never before has proper preparation of their application meant more than it will after these changes come into effect. I also predict an increase in interviews. They will become much more the norm than they are now. Interviews ALSO slow down the process.

I think this is a good thing for the MINORITY, not the majority. I also see it as a political move because helping a victim of marriage fraud plays well with the public. BUT you have to understand that only about 5% of sponsors report marriage fraud. So now 95% of genuine couples will now have to go through so much more scrutiny to protect those 5%. I'm not against helping the victims. Not at all!!! We have laws already in place that are SUPPOSED to help them. But the problem is that nobody enforces them. I also believe that H&C applications are going to go up BIG time with this. Oy vay!

Immigration law is complex. What you see on the surface is not the whole picture.

BTW, the woman you were discussing had been in a long relationship with her husband. They worked hard to get the sponsorship done. She was also 30 years older than him. Fraudsters having staying power. Think about it, a smart fraudster like him who was easily able to keep up the pretence of the marriage while she travelled back and forth to his country would just wait until they were already married for two years before applying. No conditions on his PR visa then. It's not rocket science for someone who really wants it.

You make some really good points and as I personally have great respect for your knowledge and views (just a note here....rjessome is probably one of best consultants around and I would highly recommend her services to anyone in BC that needs a consultant) will bow out to your thoughts.

I will watch this progression carefully over the next months/years.

 

[jiyamano]

You make some really good points and as I personally have great respect for your knowledge and views (just a note here....rjessome is probably one of best consultants around and I would highly recommend her services to anyone in BC that needs a consultant) will bow out to your thoughts.

I will watch this progression carefully over the next months/years.

count me in tooo .... I agree with you completely

 

[Iamrobot85]

I don't mean to be that guy, who blames the victim. But in all honesty, it seems to me that victims of marriage fraud hold some responsibility in this whole deal? I understand that these people are cheated and frauded but it's hard for me to believe that you can be with someone so intimately and not suspect somewhere they you were being used.

Some of the stories I hear about marriage fraud are heart-breaking. I've heard a few stories where people were with their mate for a long time before they realized they were used for citizenship in Canada. But these stories are the minority I think. Most of them are whirlwind romances with people that the Canadian met on vacation. When someone is so eager to be married to a practical stranger, you have to ask yourself if there are ulterior motives. And if you don't, it might be because you know the answer already and don't want to face up. If that's the case, I have no sympathy for you. You owe it to yourself to go into major life decisions eyes wide open, and if you're not, that's your fault.

My father-in-law (Canadian) went to Cuba not too long ago, and he looks like a rich white Canadian. Well he was sitting in the beach one day and a woman came over and out-and-out asked him to marry her! After talking for like three minutes! And when he told her he's already married, she told him to divorce his wife and marry her!

Don't get me wrong, it's wrong for someone to marry you for any other reason than they love you and want to be with your forever. But at the same time, the person being frauded has a responsibility to protect him or herself from such pain. I think sometimes they ante that responsibility on the gamble of true love in a shady situation and when they come up empty, they look for the system to settle their debt.

 

[TeresaLynn]

Close one loophole, scammers/fraudsters find another to open. It will deter one set, at least, those who are only in it for the short run and simply cannot see themselves doing anything but ditching the sponsor once they arrive on Canadian soil. Some hardened characters may be prepared to stick it out for 2 years, or as Baloo said, adopt the strategy of claiming abuse as others do in the US. It remains to be seen how they will be dealt with.

Either way, I see it as just the good "suffering" for the bad. It won't matter to genuine couples. For example, I have only know my husband for 2 years this month (hooray!) so if the amendments are passed and are applied to applications in progress (and likely will be) and we are still in progress, then we will be conditional. It may not add anything to our processing time for the visa, but it will add another step for us. Such is life.

Sponsorship is a big responsibility, that being said, I am glad my government is protecting Canadians. There are far too many stories in the media about Canadians being taken for a ride to get PR. I completely agree with your comment CharlieD. This shouldn't bother genuine couples at all. I agree it's good suffering for the bad.

 

[missmini]

genuine couple will never break from anything but the process will probably be even more longer and painful...

There are far too many stories in the media about Canadians being taken for a ride to get PR.

I believe that Canadians who don't need to go through all this process see only the fraudulent from all this, they don't see also the pain when genuine couples get rejected just because they apply through an embassy where the fraudulent cases could b more...does that mean that they r fraudulent too? no!...media in Canada should say the both sides of the story

also isn't it strange that this article was posted on the 1st day of electoral campaign...it's all about politics and no one really cares about the people

 

[kelKel]

count me in tooo .... I agree with you completely

Rjessome is a wonderful consultant. I know from first hand experience. Knowledge and a big heart <3

 

[rjessome]

Sponsorship is a big responsibility, that being said, I am glad my government is protecting Canadians. There are far too many stories in the media about Canadians being taken for a ride to get PR. I completely agree with your comment CharlieD. This shouldn't bother genuine couples at all. I agree it's good suffering for the bad.

The sad stories sell newspapers. And while it "shouldn't" hurt genuine couples, I believe it will. We will see.

I don't mean to be that guy, who blames the victim. But in all honesty, it seems to me that victims of marriage fraud hold some responsibility in this whole deal? I understand that these people are cheated and frauded but it's hard for me to believe that you can be with someone so intimately and not suspect somewhere they you were being used.

Some of the stories I hear about marriage fraud are heart-breaking. I've heard a few stories where people were with their mate for a long time before they realized they were used for citizenship in Canada. But these stories are the minority I think. Most of them are whirlwind romances with people that the Canadian met on vacation. When someone is so eager to be married to a practical stranger, you have to ask yourself if there are ulterior motives. And if you don't, it might be because you know the answer already and don't want to face up. If that's the case, I have no sympathy for you. You owe it to yourself to go into major life decisions eyes wide open, and if you're not, that's your fault.

My father-in-law (Canadian) went to Cuba not too long ago, and he looks like a rich white Canadian. Well he was sitting in the beach one day and a woman came over and out-and-out asked him to marry her! After talking for like three minutes! And when he told her he's already married, she told him to divorce his wife and marry her!

Don't get me wrong, it's wrong for someone to marry you for any other reason than they love you and want to be with your forever. But at the same time, the person being frauded has a responsibility to protect him or herself from such pain. I think sometimes they ante that responsibility on the gamble of true love in a shady situation and when they come up empty, they look for the system to settle their debt.

Hard to be politically correct on that one isn't it? But the bottom line is that you are right. The sponsor has a lot riding on this and needs to take sponsorship VERY seriously. However, the old adage that "love is blind" is true. Rational thought is a difficult thing when you are in love. People make bad marriage choices all the time, without immigration being thrown into the mix. We have a divorce rate of over 50% in this country. I'm pretty sure that 99% of those marriages started out with the belief that it would be "forever". Throw in the pressures of immigration, cultural differences, long separations and possibly different socio-economic backgrounds and you've got yourself even more challenges to overcome. My worry here is that the relationship IS genuine and wasn't entered into for the purposes of gaining immigration status to Canada BUT, it breaks down for reasons that have nothing to do with marriage of convenience. So then what?

Put yourself in the applicant's shoes in this case. You think you've found the love of your life. You give up EVERYTHING you know to go live with them in their country; your job, your family, your friends, your home. Things are great at first but then you and your spouse start fighting, seeing things in each other that you didn't see before, some of which you just can't live with. You try and try, get yourself a job, contribute to the household, make friends, maybe have a child, but it still isn't working. All the while you are more and more separated from your old life in your home country. While the marriage might not be working, maybe the life you are creating in your spouse's country is good for you. You are contributing to the economy, being a good "citizen". But the love you once felt has now turned to hate and you may be thrown out of the country where you worked so hard to build a life and must go back to the old life you gave up and start all over again. THESE are the stories we are going to hear about in the media moving forward. I'm not even touching on potential abuse. Just normal folks trying to make it work but can't. Happens everyday in marriages without an immigration twist. How would YOU feel if this was you? Nobody thinks about this scenario.

Look, I am FOR fraudsters being thrown out. Definitely FOR that. But there is great potential now for the new victim to be the person I described above, who never had a thought of fraud in their mind. Appeal you say? BACKLOG! H&C application? BACKLOG! CIC is now involved in my divorce? GREAT! Ugh. We are now into a "he said she said" type of deal that could/will get ugly. I am hoping the Minister has considered this scenario. We will see.

Rjessome is a wonderful consultant. I know from first hand experience. Knowledge and a big heart <3

:-* Thanks sweetie. You are the best!

Really, I want people to THINK about this. Yes, it "sounds" good on the surface. We all want the liars and cheaters to be punished. But dig deeper. Life is not that black and white.

 

[HoneyBird]

The problem with the 2 year probation is that many people have online relationships...never meeting in person until they met and then a month after they get married.

So when do you consider a relationship to start? Cause I was talking to hubby for a year before we met. And a year after we got married. So if i did not get my pr already, i would be under probation. although technically we were talking for over 2 years before marriage.

Also this law would seem to affect the arranged marriages in india and other such places that puts the brides at risk. Cause they will be afraid to go back divorced, and will take the abuse. I can see the abuse as plain as day for brides from these kinds of countries.

I am thinking that to crack down on marriages of convenience, they need to have more information for the sponsor. E.g. inform the sponsor what he/she can do if spouse leaves them or is suspected of fraud. I think sponsors need to know how to report, who to go to and WHY they should report it.

Secondly they should have a hotline. If you know someone in a marriage of convenience, you can call in and get a reward. Inform the public very clearly of who they can tell. Make it easy for the public to report fraudlent immigration officers etc.

Thirdly, they need to have more investigations on these immigration consultants, like have them under watch ad have swoops...random audits. Once a few immigration lawyers get caught..they will all stop it.

fourthly, information, information, information..inform the public about the cases of marriage of conveniences. Show instances where they are getting caught. This is the only way that people will realise that they can get caught and will act as a deterrent. And once the sponsor knows that there is a 2 year wait, the spouse cant work, they will have to pay the government back the welfare...trust me,....they will be more careful in their choices of spouse or reject the idea of 'helping' their friend.

fifthly, there needs to be some sort of charge for those canadians that use this system to get money from people wanting to get into canada.

sixthly, all the brides that are coming in, all spouses, immigration should have mandatory sit down at the airport, let them know their rights and who they can call e.g. police. this needs to especialy be for those arranged marriaged women.

seventhly, increase the years required to apply for citizenship in Canada. From 3 to 5.

If you really love somebody, then it shouldnt matter 2 years waiting or 5 years waiting right?

 

[_696_]

Regarding citizenship, personally, I couldn't care any less, I mean if they grant me it somehow, some time, then great, if not, I might not even ever bother, I just want to be able to have a regular life alongside the person I love the most in the whole universe, full stop.

 

[Baloo]

Looks like the CBC just caught on.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/03/29/pol-marriage-fraud.html

 

[QCSunshine]

This part of the article makes me pause:

"Under the law, that new spouse becomes a landed immigrant once the marriage takes place. So a marriage license is a cheaper and quicker way of getting into Canada compared to applying to become an immigrant, a process that can take years."

Is the reporter talking about how things currently are in Canada??? That once you are married you are automatically a landed immigrant?? Is he really saying that as an immigrant person married to a Canadian, I don't even need to apply to be an immigrant?

 

[_696_]

Media posting misleading info? Nahhhhhh

 

[KazInAz]

This is nothing new in the US...Green Cards (PR's) in the US are conditional for the first 2 years when it is family based. After 2 years you have to prove that the relationship is still ongoing and 'real' to have condions removed. Stops alot of sham marriages. If you relationship is real you have nothing to fear. I have been through the US system and its no big deal. Be honest and your fine. My relationship started online and it was easy to prove it was real. You resubmit new paperwork at the end of the 2yr period that shows you are still married. Easy to do...lease agreements, joint bank accts, tax records, utilitly bills etc.

I doubt this will effect those in the process...and if it does??? what are you worried about?

Kaz (on my way back to Canada)