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Citizenship application rejected! 3 days shortfall

Kayvanblue

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Nov 19, 2012
113
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Toronto
Visa Office......
Sydney, Canada
App. Filed.......
12-11-2017
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N/A
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N/A-
I need some help! my sister citizenship application was rejected after 13 months....everything turned green (not physical presence)...she received an interview and after 4 months of back and forth they finally emailed us that they are sending us to a citizenship judge for the final decision since at the time when she sent the application she was only eligible for 1092 days anot 1095!!! ! they also send us a from for withdrawal off the applicaation and $100 refund!!!
My question!
1-should we go ahead and wait a few months ( i heard 15 months for the judge review) or should we resubmit a new application?
2- in the case of new application do we need to go for new citizenship testing? or can they accept the first test she passed with the opld application?


We really need some advice
 

Seym

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,717
838
1) The current Citizenship Act is very strict regarding physical presence. If under 1095 days, a person is just not eligible, and that's what the judge will tell you... So there's no real point waiting for it. It's definitely wiser to just withdraw, swallow the financial loss and send a new application. If your sister stayed in Canada since her 1st application, she will have a very healthy buffer by now, and there's a high chance she becomes a citizen before the potential date of the encounter with the citizenship judge.

2) It's a new application, everything starts from scratch if I'm not mistaken. She will probably need to pass the test again. But don't take my word on this, and don't make the fact that she may need to pass the test again a factor in the reflexion leading to the withdrawal of the application.
 
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canada449

Star Member
Jun 30, 2023
58
11
I need some help! my sister citizenship application was rejected after 13 months....everything turned green (not physical presence)...she received an interview and after 4 months of back and forth they finally emailed us that they are sending us to a citizenship judge for the final decision since at the time when she sent the application she was only eligible for 1092 days anot 1095!!! ! they also send us a from for withdrawal off the applicaation and $100 refund!!!
My question!
1-should we go ahead and wait a few months ( i heard 15 months for the judge review) or should we resubmit a new application?
2- in the case of new application do we need to go for new citizenship testing? or can they accept the first test she passed with the opld application?


We really need some advice
How is it even possible, wasn't this application supposed to be returned at the beginning? How many days of presence did your sister have when you applied? Was it exact 1095 days? Did they tell you how they calculated it 3 days lesser than you calculated? Did you put incorrect dates?
 
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forw.jane

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Apr 29, 2019
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How is it even possible, wasn't this application supposed to be returned at the beginning? How many days of presence did your sister have when you applied? Was it exact 1095 days? Did they tell you how they calculated it 3 days lesser than you calculated? Did you put incorrect dates?
Physical presence validation happens in the end. It always better to apply with a buffer then face rejection after so many months.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
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I need some help! my sister citizenship application was rejected after 13 months....everything turned green (not physical presence)...she received an interview and after 4 months of back and forth they finally emailed us that they are sending us to a citizenship judge for the final decision since at the time when she sent the application she was only eligible for 1092 days anot 1095!!! ! they also send us a from for withdrawal off the applicaation and $100 refund!!!
My question!
1-should we go ahead and wait a few months ( i heard 15 months for the judge review) or should we resubmit a new application?
2- in the case of new application do we need to go for new citizenship testing? or can they accept the first test she passed with the opld application?


We really need some advice
I cannot offer advice.

I can nonetheless second the straightforward observations offered by @Seym.

And I can offer a more in-depth explanation. In that vein, for clarification and emphasis: IRCC does NOT have the authority to grant citizenship to an adult who did not meet the minimum physical presence requirement as of the date they made an application for citizenship. Some requirements can be waived, like language or knowledge of Canada. The physical presence requirement cannot be.

If as of the date the application was made, the applicant was short, the application must be denied. As @Seym noted, a new application must be made. And yes, that means the applicant must prove they have the requisite knowledge of Canada (so must pass the "test") and prove they have the requisite ability in an official language (English or French), and of course maintain valid PR status and meet the other requirements.

However, if the person applying for citizenship claims they met the physical presence requirement, they are entitled to a hearing before a Citizenship Judge. A Citizenship Officer cannot deny the application if the issue of physical presence is contested.

This leads to
How is it even possible, wasn't this application supposed to be returned at the beginning?
If the application on its face fails to show the applicant met the physical presence requirement, the application will be returned based on a failure to meet the complete application criteria. Completeness screening is the first step in processing a citizenship application.

Even if the application on its face purports to show the applicant met the physical presence requirement, but GCMS records do not verify some periods of temporary resident status (most common examples are periods of visitor status not documented by a visa or Visitor Record, and periods of implied status not documented in GCMS), and not counting such period results in less than 1095 days physical presence credit, the application will most likely be returned as incomplete. BUT the applicant can contest this, by affirmatively making the case they are entitled to the credit for the questioned period of time. Burden of proof is on the applicant. (It is almost always better to not resubmit an application returned for falling short of the physical presence requirement, to wait and apply with more credit, because not only is that the safer approach it will most likely be the faster, and perhaps much faster path to actually taking the oath. Contested physical presence cases tend to take a very long time.

If the application on its face purports to show the applicant met the physical presence requirement BUT in the process of reviewing the application and verifying information (a part of the process that does not happen until later, as @forw.jane noted) IRCC determines the applicant's version of the physical presence calculation is not accurate and the total credit IRCC can verify is less than 1095 (typically this happens because the applicant overlooked a trip or miscalculated travel dates), in these cases, as noted above, IRCC does NOT have authority to grant citizenship. But neither does a Citizenship Officer have authority to deny the application on the grounds the applicant does not meet the physical presence requirement. So it goes to a Citizenship Judge hearing, where the CJ makes findings of fact in regards to how much credit for physical presence the applicant is entitled to.

As @Seym also noted, the timeline for this tends to be very long. And unless the applicant can affirmatively prove actual physical presence that adds up to a total of at least 1095 days credit, the outcome will be the application is denied. A CJ does NOT have the authority to approve the citizenship application UNLESS the burden of proof is met showing at least 1095 days physical presence credit.
 

Kayvanblue

Star Member
Nov 19, 2012
113
9
Toronto
Visa Office......
Sydney, Canada
App. Filed.......
12-11-2017
Passport Req..
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A-
How is it even possible, wasn't this application supposed to be returned at the beginning? How many days of presence did your sister have when you applied? Was it exact 1095 days? Did they tell you how they calculated it 3 days lesser than you calculated? Did you put incorrect dates?
She was here in a limbo for 12 years(( failed refugee claimant) prior to her Pr landing in 2018 ( spousal sponsorship) when we signed the citizenship application she had 1092 days + (180 days half credit for time spent as Temporary Non-resident ) but they accpeted only 1092 days, they also pointed to a discrepancy in one of the passport stamps-appreantly during the covid they asked her to un-board the plane and canceled the flight, once back to the gate, the Cbsa officer stamped her passport as a new entry, so she had an extra entry stamp in one day! to prove that we had to go through airline histories and 2 interviews!

in the rejection email, the officer waived and rejected those credits saying: that "non-permanent resident time does not confer status ". That was my question too, why they accepted the application at the beginning and torment us for 13 months, invited us for 2 interviews and asked us for tons of extra documents and now this!

All we had to do was to wait 3 more days before signing the application! How can I refuse to go to the grave with this regret

I think any judge with a drop of compassion should grant her the status! she has been here for 15 years ( since she was 11 years old)! and 1092 of that was with status.
 

canada449

Star Member
Jun 30, 2023
58
11
She was here in a limbo for 12 years(( failed refugee claimant) prior to her Pr landing in 2018 ( spousal sponsorship) when we signed the citizenship application she had 1092 days + (180 days half credit for time spent as Temporary Non-resident ) but they accpeted only 1092 days, they also pointed to a discrepancy in one of the passport stamps-appreantly during the covid they asked her to un-board the plane and canceled the flight, once back to the gate, the Cbsa officer stamped her passport as a new entry, so she had an extra entry stamp in one day! to prove that we had to go through airline histories and 2 interviews!

in the rejection email, the officer waived and rejected those credits saying: that "non-permanent resident time does not confer status ". That was my question too, why they accepted the application at the beginning and torment us for 13 months, invited us for 2 interviews and asked us for tons of extra documents and now this!

All we had to do was to wait 3 more days before signing the application! How can I refuse to go to the grave with this regret

I think any judge with a drop of compassion should grant her the status! she has been here for 15 years ( since she was 11 years old)! and 1092 of that was with status.
So as I understand she got PR in 2018 and you submitted citizenship application in 2021. But it was not the exact 3 years, you calculated it and applied when she had 1092 days as permanent resident in Canada. In addition to that, you submitted the application even though she had 1092 days because you were confident she supposed to have extra 180 days of credit prior to PR status, before 2018 PR date. She lived in Canada for a long time, doesn't she has more temporary resident status before PR? Maximum of 365 days are counted as temporary resident or protected person before permanent resident status. Maybe you can gain extra credits more than 180 days.

So what is exactly "non-permanent resident time does not confer status" mean? Normally temporary resident and protected person status are counted as 0.5 day per day. Didn't she has a valid temporary resident status after failed refugee claim? Normally, refugee claimant status are not counted towards physical presence.

If not, as my understanding, she had either refugee claimant status or failed refugee claimant status before 2018 PR date. So in that case none of them counted towards physical presence and only 1092 days were counted. What status did she has after failing the refugee hearing and before getting PR status?
 

Copingwithlife

VIP Member
Jul 29, 2018
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She was here in a limbo for 12 years(( failed refugee claimant) prior to her Pr landing in 2018 ( spousal sponsorship) when we signed the citizenship application she had 1092 days + (180 days half credit for time spent as Temporary Non-resident ) but they accpeted only 1092 days, they also pointed to a discrepancy in one of the passport stamps-appreantly during the covid they asked her to un-board the plane and canceled the flight, once back to the gate, the Cbsa officer stamped her passport as a new entry, so she had an extra entry stamp in one day! to prove that we had to go through airline histories and 2 interviews!

in the rejection email, the officer waived and rejected those credits saying: that "non-permanent resident time does not confer status ". That was my question too, why they accepted the application at the beginning and torment us for 13 months, invited us for 2 interviews and asked us for tons of extra documents and now this!

All we had to do was to wait 3 more days before signing the application! How can I refuse to go to the grave with this regret

I think any judge with a drop of compassion should grant her the status! she has been here for 15 years ( since she was 11 years old)! and 1092 of that was with status.
The law states she MUST have the required days . If she’s been here 15 years, no status , refugee status etc , compassion has already been shown, wouldn’t you say ?
 

Buletruck

VIP Member
May 18, 2015
6,878
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"I think any judge with a drop of compassion should grant her the status! she has been here for 15 years ( since she was 11 years old)! and 1092 of that was with status."

unfortunately, it's not a matter of compassion, it's a matter of law. 1092 days is not 1095 days.
 
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forw.jane

VIP Member
Apr 29, 2019
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Hindsight instead of taking a risk at 1092 you could have applied with pure PR days of 1095+
Anyways with citizenship application completing within 3-4 months these days, give it a try and once citizenship is granted it will all be worth it.
 
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Kayvanblue

Star Member
Nov 19, 2012
113
9
Toronto
Visa Office......
Sydney, Canada
App. Filed.......
12-11-2017
Passport Req..
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A-
The law states she MUST have the required days . If she’s been here 15 years, no status , refugee status etc , compassion has already been shown, wouldn’t you say ?
When her case was rejected after 4 years, at age 17 she was referred to federal court she won the case in 2011 and her case returned to cic, she waited until 2016 for another hearing!(no official status during all those lost years)
yes enough compensation has already been shown..... Imagine you live in the only country that you have known since your childhood, have been lost in the system and you have been stateless! you need freedom! not the compassion
 

scylla

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She was here in a limbo for 12 years(( failed refugee claimant) prior to her Pr landing in 2018 ( spousal sponsorship) when we signed the citizenship application she had 1092 days + (180 days half credit for time spent as Temporary Non-resident ) but they accpeted only 1092 days, they also pointed to a discrepancy in one of the passport stamps-appreantly during the covid they asked her to un-board the plane and canceled the flight, once back to the gate, the Cbsa officer stamped her passport as a new entry, so she had an extra entry stamp in one day! to prove that we had to go through airline histories and 2 interviews!

in the rejection email, the officer waived and rejected those credits saying: that "non-permanent resident time does not confer status ". That was my question too, why they accepted the application at the beginning and torment us for 13 months, invited us for 2 interviews and asked us for tons of extra documents and now this!

All we had to do was to wait 3 more days before signing the application! How can I refuse to go to the grave with this regret

I think any judge with a drop of compassion should grant her the status! she has been here for 15 years ( since she was 11 years old)! and 1092 of that was with status.
The law doesn't allow for compassion. She either has the minimum 1095 days or she doesn't.

It is correct that any days before she became a PR cannot be counted. She would have been out of status as a failed refugee claimant and out of status time in Canada cannot be counted towards the residency obligation.

Unfortunately she applied too early and tried to claim days she couldn't claim. These were both her errors.

File a new application.
 
Last edited:

Ross88

Star Member
May 27, 2023
58
14
Instead of being bitter, OP and sister should maybe reflect on the fact that after all those years of struggle, it did not occur to them to allow even a few days of buffer in case their own physical calculation was slightly off.

As a refugee, I assume part of the "freedom" sought is being in a rule of law country where everyone is treated equally. 1092 is not 1095, which is already a low bar by global standards!
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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When her case . . . Imagine you live in the only country that you have known since your childhood, have been lost in the system and you have been stateless! you need freedom! not the compassion
For clarity, notwithstanding the lack of certain benefits the Canadian who is a citizen has that the Canadian who is a PR does not (and yeah, of course the right to vote looms large), generally, as a Canadian she has the same freedoms under Canadian law as Canadian citizens.

Beyond that . . . I was born among, and have mostly lived among the more privileged (the privilege of being born and living in the "West;" although not anywhere near close to the upper echelons of privilege), and recognize there is no way I can imagine what many, many millions of people endure navigating life without documentation of status for where (the geo-political jurisdiction) their lives are in fact rooted. Meanwhile, immigration and other issues related to international movement of undocumented migrants and immigrants (acknowledging the profound disparity imposed just in recognizing a difference, let alone treating differently the documented and undocumented) is a huge, huge subject, rife with discrimination and injustice (for far too many the world is exceedingly harsh). Just to think of this triggers my deep underlying idealistic ideologies (each according to their needs, from each according to their ability, with wide allowances in the latter but not so much the former), while also acknowledging how deeply entrenched my own hypocrisies are (if only one had the courage to truly practice what they preach), in this forum I generally steer wide of all that, it being tough enough to focus on addressing how things actually work in regards to real-life decision-making.

Which is to say, with context, I get the hardship of it and recognize that this too often has little weight when wrangling with how to better navigate the system recognizing how things actually work.

I understood you to be inquiring about how to handle the situation this applicant for citizenship currently faces, it being clear they do not meet the necessary requirements for a grant of citizenship, but can continue to pursue the application to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge. To reiterate, to be clear, NO expertise needed, here, to recognize as many have in posts above, that withdraw and re-apply is the way to go. No loss of freedom.

Note, under Canadian immigration law she is NOW and has been a "Canadian;" has been since the day of landing and becoming a Permanent Resident. This has been and is home (it appears), and can continue to be permanently her home (only subject to loss of status based on personal choices and actions which do not involve any at all onerous restrictions -- a very liberal presence obligation plus no serious criminality, and no engaging in terrorism or such). While there are some important benefits of citizenship the PR does not enjoy, otherwise a PR has as much freedom under Canadian law as a Canadian citizen.

All we had to do was to wait 3 more days before signing the application! How can I refuse to go to the grave with this regret
Get it right making the new application. A properly completed application should go as smoothly as an application can go, and be among those benefitting from the faster timelines. Congratulate her when done, and let go the regrets (and, after all, it was her cake to properly bake as well).

I think any judge with a drop of compassion should grant her the status! she has been here for 15 years ( since she was 11 years old)! and 1092 of that was with status.
Apart from the fact NO judge can do that, NO matter how compassionate they are, if the applicant did not meet the minimum physical presence requirement as of the day the application was made (signed), for the purpose of figuring out what to do, remember the timeline to proceed to a CJ hearing appears to be extraordinarily long, longer than it is likely to take to get to the oath with a new application (assuming there are no security, criminality, or status-related issues).

She was here in a limbo for 12 years(( failed refugee claimant) prior to her Pr landing in 2018 ( spousal sponsorship) when we signed the citizenship application she had 1092 days + (180 days half credit for time spent as Temporary Non-resident ) but they accpeted only 1092 days
There is NO credit toward the physical presence requirement for "time spent as Temporary Non-resident."

For general adult applicants and days they are physically present in Canada, they get:
-- a full day credit for each day present in Canada with Permanent Resident status​
-- a half-day credit for each day present in Canada with Temporary Resident status​

There are no other credits toward the actual physical presence requirement. In particular, there is no credit for time in Canada as a "non-resident" or pending application for refugee or protected person status prior to the claim being accepted, or time spent in Canada remaining here without otherwise being issued Temporary Resident Status (this includes applicants who do not have verifiable implied status for gaps in pre-PR status as well as failed refugee claimants).


So what is exactly "non-permanent resident time does not confer status" mean? Normally temporary resident and protected person status are counted as 0.5 day per day. Didn't she has a valid temporary resident status after failed refugee claim? Normally, refugee claimant status are not counted towards physical presence.
There is some cloudiness in how you describe things.

Note that the oft times mixed use of terms like "resident," recognizing profound differences in the colloquial meaning versus technical meaning in terms of immigration status, can be confusing.

Many FNs remain in Canada for various periods of time, some very lengthy periods of time, without having either Temporary or Permanent "Resident" status. Even though they are an in-fact resident here for a long time. Some of this is legal (there is a range of circumstances in which a FN is not subject to deportation even though they do not have Temporary Resident status here). Some not. Neither count toward meeting the physical presence requirement.
 

Kayvanblue

Star Member
Nov 19, 2012
113
9
Toronto
Visa Office......
Sydney, Canada
App. Filed.......
12-11-2017
Passport Req..
N/A
VISA ISSUED...
N/A-
For clarity, notwithstanding the lack of certain benefits the Canadian who is a citizen has that the Canadian who is a PR does not (and yeah, of course the right to vote looms large), generally, as a Canadian she has the same freedoms under Canadian law as Canadian citizens.

Beyond that . . . I was born among, and have mostly lived among the more privileged (the privilege of being born and living in the "West;" although not anywhere near close to the upper echelons of privilege), and recognize there is no way I can imagine what many, many millions of people endure navigating life without documentation of status for where (the geo-political jurisdiction) their lives are in fact rooted. Meanwhile, immigration and other issues related to international movement of undocumented migrants and immigrants (acknowledging the profound disparity imposed just in recognizing a difference, let alone treating differently the documented and undocumented) is a huge, huge subject, rife with discrimination and injustice (for far too many the world is exceedingly harsh). Just to think of this triggers my deep underlying idealistic ideologies (each according to their needs, from each according to their ability, with wide allowances in the latter but not so much the former), while also acknowledging how deeply entrenched my own hypocrisies are (if only one had the courage to truly practice what they preach), in this forum I generally steer wide of all that, it being tough enough to focus on addressing how things actually work in regards to real-life decision-making.

Which is to say, with context, I get the hardship of it and recognize that this too often has little weight when wrangling with how to better navigate the system recognizing how things actually work.

I understood you to be inquiring about how to handle the situation this applicant for citizenship currently faces, it being clear they do not meet the necessary requirements for a grant of citizenship, but can continue to pursue the application to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge. To reiterate, to be clear, NO expertise needed, here, to recognize as many have in posts above, that withdraw and re-apply is the way to go. No loss of freedom.

Note, under Canadian immigration law she is NOW and has been a "Canadian;" has been since the day of landing and becoming a Permanent Resident. This has been and is home (it appears), and can continue to be permanently her home (only subject to loss of status based on personal choices and actions which do not involve any at all onerous restrictions -- a very liberal presence obligation plus no serious criminality, and no engaging in terrorism or such). While there are some important benefits of citizenship the PR does not enjoy, otherwise a PR has as much freedom under Canadian law as a Canadian citizen.



Get it right making the new application. A properly completed application should go as smoothly as an application can go, and be among those benefitting from the faster timelines. Congratulate her when done, and let go the regrets (and, after all, it was her cake to properly bake as well).



Apart from the fact NO judge can do that, NO matter how compassionate they are, if the applicant did not meet the minimum physical presence requirement as of the day the application was made (signed), for the purpose of figuring out what to do, remember the timeline to proceed to a CJ hearing appears to be extraordinarily long, longer than it is likely to take to get to the oath with a new application (assuming there are no security, criminality, or status-related issues).



There is NO credit toward the physical presence requirement for "time spent as Temporary Non-resident."

For general adult applicants and days they are physically present in Canada, they get:
-- a full day credit for each day present in Canada with Permanent Resident status​
-- a half-day credit for each day present in Canada with Temporary Resident status​

There are no other credits toward the actual physical presence requirement. In particular, there is no credit for time in Canada as a "non-resident" or pending application for refugee or protected person status prior to the claim being accepted, or time spent in Canada remaining here without otherwise being issued Temporary Resident Status (this includes applicants who do not have verifiable implied status for gaps in pre-PR status as well as failed refugee claimants).




There is some cloudiness in how you describe things.

Note that the oft times mixed use of terms like "resident," recognizing profound differences in the colloquial meaning versus technical meaning in terms of immigration status, can be confusing.

Many FNs remain in Canada for various periods of time, some very lengthy periods of time, without having either Temporary or Permanent "Resident" status. Even though they are an in-fact resident here for a long time. Some of this is legal (there is a range of circumstances in which a FN is not subject to deportation even though they do not have Temporary Resident status here). Some not. Neither count toward meeting the physical presence requirement.
thank you for your detailed explanation i,read the most sentences a few times to understand them. You are right,The law was clear when we applied however, we profoundly' misunderstood the part of the law that applied on her stauts as non-permanent resident (NPR) time spent in Canada as an authorized temporary resident.

Another problem that we have, we applied for the Pr ( pr expired 15 days ago) we have have applied for the new card,she has been waiting for her new card since september 22, 2023. I am not sure if the lengthy citizinship application and problem with physical presence somehow interfeared with Pr renewal application. The question i have; can we apply for the citizenship again while the Pr card is expired!?