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Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Thanks for your explanation, but the most risky are:
1- do not travel to your country, wait to be Canadian
2- don’t renew your home passport
3- using your home passport to travel to countries ( a lot of people have NO info to use or not)as USA, Mexico, Cuba (not your country), the risk is very low. May be Immigration should notice the emigrants, because giving back a not expired home passport after the status of PR, may create the idea that till this passport is valid why not to use to go for vacation?
What do you think?
It is not what I think that matters, but what I see in an officially published Federal Court decision, the one just being discussed: Caballero v. Canada, 2022 FC 1143 https://canlii.ca/t/jr4p0
Spoiler alert: Caballero's status in Canada has been terminated.

Part of the evidence that CBSA, the RPD, the Minister, and the Federal Court cited and relied upon, was evidence that Caballero had traveled to Cuba and Florida, and it was a border examination upon returning to Canada from the U.S. that resulted in the referral for cessation.

Yes, he also used the home country passport to travel to his home country. And that was the main evidence against him. There is no doubt, the factor that creates the biggest risk is home country travel. The second biggest risk factor is obtaining and using a home country passport.

But remember: just obtaining or using a home country passport is enough to create the PRESUMPTION of reavailment.

So you are talking about parsing probabilities. But let's be clear here; we are not talking about getting a speeding ticket. We are talking about something more like falling off a cliff.

I buy into parsing probabilities, the risks, distinguishing driving 15k over the speed limit on the QEW or Trans-Canada or 401 (which I have done often, and do just about every time I drive on these highways), from driving 30k over the limit (no confessions intended, but ok, sometimes yeah I do, even faster). Worse case scenario is a fine, license restrictions, increased insurance premiums.

I do not buy into parsing probabilities of cessation enforcement in deciding whether to engage in an act that creates a presumption of reavailment. Even if the risk of enforcement is low, even very low, the consequences are severe and for many affected potentially extremely harsh . . . and no matter how harsh, there is no H&C relief.

I have done some open face high altitude mountain climbing, including some free climbing where there would be no chance of surviving a fall. Back in the day. All more than three decades ago, when I took some risks in life. Even then I never recommended anyone else do that. Those are not the kind of risks anyone should suggest someone else take.

One of the difficulties in this forum is separating the various contexts in which risk factors are typically assessed. Big difference between assessing the risk of enforcement action for PAST events versus assessing risks in making decisions; for example, compare:
-- PR-refugee assessing risk of cessation enforcement because they have used a home country passport in the past,​
VERSUS​
-- PR-refugee assessing the risk of cessation enforcement in deciding whether to use a home country passport going forward.​

I have no problem reassuring a PR-refugee that if they have used a home country passport occasionally but did not use it to travel to their home country, the risk of cessation is very low, probably no need to worry.

But if a PR is wondering about whether it is OK to go ahead and use their home country passport to travel to countries other than their home country, the key to remember is doing that is still enough to create a presumption of reavailment. That's walking on the edge of a high, high cliff. That's free climbing an open rock face in real mountains (not some recreational climbing wall). It's Ok as long as . . . nothing makes you fall.

I do not know the particulars about who, when, or why some PR-refugees have their passports returned to them. My guess is that Canada does not have a legitimate basis for seizing the passport. Or it may be about allowing the PR-refugee to have this important piece of identification to use in dealing with the province or banks or such.

I do not know to what extent PR-refugees are adequately advised they should not use a returned passport for travel. Most of what I have seen indicates PRs are given notice they should not use the passport for travel, or at least they should obtain a Refugee-Travel-Document if they want to travel outside Canada, but it seems this may be given along with a lot of other information and is easily overlooked.

There is no doubt about the rule. Using a home country passport for international travel creates a presumption of reavailment. That is grounds for cessation of status. That can be very harsh.

In contrast, enforcement is very uncertain. Using the passport for a holiday in Cancun or Cabo San Lucas (my preference even though it has been well over a decade since my last Baja trip) is not likely to trigger cessation. Take the risk? That's a very personal decision. Personally just the risk of it leading to elevated scrutiny in a citizenship application would strongly discourage me from taking that risk, even as much as I'd love to go back to Cabo. But for sure, I will not suggest let alone encourage anyone else take that risk any more than I recommend someone else take up mountain climbing.

ALSO note: even if using the passport does not trigger cessation, this can be something that causes significant delays in the processing of a citizenship application. Remember, applicants are not notified of investigatory processing, so a citizenship application can be bogged down with an investigatory referral for a long time, to allow CBSA to decide whether to pursue cessation, and the citizenship applicant will never be advised that is happening or that is the reason for delays.
 
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Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
Just a quick update. So I ordered GCMS notes for the fourth time. This time it shows the status is "open"...file was located in " ZZZ do not use - routine - clearance pending " ever since August 2021 till May 2022 when it finally shows File is now located in "Complex - File review ready "
This is the first time my gcms notes are providing an update so recent because previously there was literally no action at all since the test. This is a bit of a relief..as it seems file is getting somewhere to a decision from the area office
Anyone with experience understanding GCMS notes?
 
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Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
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Just a quick update. So I ordered GCMS notes for the fourth time. This time it shows the status is "open"...file was located in " ZZZ do not use - routine - clearance pending " ever since August 2021 till May 2022 when it finally shows File is now located in "Complex - File review ready "
This is the first time my gcms notes are providing an update so recent because previously there was literally no action at all since the test. This is a bit of a relief..as it seems file is getting somewhere to a decision from the area office
Anyone with experience understanding GCMS notes?
Only God does translate their language
What link did u use to ask GCMS notes?
Thanks
 

ytyt

Newbie
Aug 8, 2022
6
8
Am a protected person. I applied for a new passport from my home country,
and used it for vacation. On my return from vacation, border agency told me
to get an Adult travel document for future travel...no other issue from agent.

I just got my citizenship approved....no cessation issue.
Ironically, citizenship agent asked me to get exit and entry record from my home country.
I declined as I do not trust my home country and told him/her so.
I had no issue after that and now waiting for citizenship certificate.

Apparently, getting a new passport from home country and used it to travel to third country
do not cause issue for citizenship application. My application process took a year....normal.

I hope my experience can sooth some concerns with similar situation.
 

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
Am a protected person. I applied for a new passport from my home country,
and used it for vacation. On my return from vacation, border agency told me
to get an Adult travel document for future travel...no other issue from agent.

I just got my citizenship approved....no cessation issue.
Ironically, citizenship agent asked me to get exit and entry record from my home country.
I declined as I do not trust my home country and told him/her so.
I had no issue after that and now waiting for citizenship certificate.

Apparently, getting a new passport from home country and used it to travel to third country
do not cause issue for citizenship application. My application process took a year....normal.

I hope my experience can sooth some concerns with similar situation.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Good bless you Sir/ Madam!
I claimed refugee 2012
The only home passport I had expired at Nov 2021. During these years :
1- I became PR at 2017
2- I applied for Canadian citizen at July 2020
3- Never renew my home passport
4- Never gone to visit my country
5- But used not expired home passport to go for vacation to Cuba & America
6- Still expecting to have my citizenship ceremony ( finished ✅ the Test)
7- Applied to renew my PR card ( decision made at 5 Aug2022)
So, please give me a advice, my citizenship process is keeping so long because I did used my home passport to third countries???
Please tell me the truth , 2 years can’t sleep
Thanks
 

ytyt

Newbie
Aug 8, 2022
6
8
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Good bless you Sir/ Madam!
I claimed refugee 2012
The only home passport I had expired at Nov 2021. During these years :
1- I became PR at 2017
2- I applied for Canadian citizen at July 2020
3- Never renew my home passport
4- Never gone to visit my country
5- But used not expired home passport to go for vacation to Cuba & America
6- Still expecting to have my citizenship ceremony ( finished ✅ the Test)
7- Applied to renew my PR card ( decision made at 5 Aug2022)
So, please give me a advice, my citizenship process is keeping so long because I did used my home passport to third countries???
Please tell me the truth , 2 years can’t sleep
Thanks
i wouldn't worry about it, as your case seems similar.
I applied for citizenship june, 2021
got notice of receipt of application in august 2021
pass test in january, 2022
everything completed, ie background check, prohibition etc by may, 2022
invited for zoom citizenship ceremony in july 2022
just attended ceremony aug 05, 2022

seems using home passport for visiting third country does not cause any issue.
as i noted, citizenship agent did ask me to get record of exit and entry from my
home country website...i replied in the negative as i do not trust my home country.

Also please note, immigration does have my home country passport as immigration
required it in order to process my Adult traveling document, Immigration will return
my home country passport when i become a canadian citizenship.

I guess their having my home passport clarified my presence in Canada as
my passport would have documented my return to home country if any,
and one cannot use the Adult Traveling Document to travel to home country.

Also, as to which office you applied for citizenship matters. My ircc office- scarboro
seems pretty efficient.

you can use ircc citizenship process tracking service to get update on your citizenship
applicantion process. web address for this is https://cst-ssc.apps.cic.gc.ca/en?utm_campaign=CitTRK-initial&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Cit-invitation-210510&utm_content=check-application-progress.

I hope this replie help...good luck
 
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Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
i wouldn't worry about it, as your case seems similar.
I applied for citizenship june, 2021
got notice of receipt of application in august 2021
pass test in january, 2022
everything completed, ie background check, prohibition etc by may, 2022
invited for zoom citizenship ceremony in july 2022
just attended ceremony aug 05, 2022

seems using home passport for visiting third country does not cause any issue.
as i noted, citizenship agent did ask me to get record of exit and entry from my
home country website...i replied in the negative as i do not trust my home country.

Also please note, immigration does have my home country passport as immigration
required it in order to process my Adult traveling document, Immigration will return
my home country passport when i become a canadian citizenship.

I guess their having my home passport clarified my presence in Canada as
my passport would have documented my return to home country if any,
and one cannot use the Adult Traveling Document to travel to home country.

Also, as to which office you applied for citizenship matters. My ircc office- scarboro
seems pretty efficient.

you can use ircc citizenship process tracking service to get update on your citizenship
applicantion process. web address for this is https://cst-ssc.apps.cic.gc.ca/en?utm_campaign=CitTRK-initial&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Cit-invitation-210510&utm_content=check-application-progress.

I hope this replie help...good luck
Thanks for your email
It’s very difficult to be a refugee in this country. Even the status can be changed to Permanent Resident, till our category lives under insecurity and stress- till the day that we become Canadian.
- My office is Scarborough, Toronto
— Send my application July 2020
- AOR January 2021✅
- BG completed ✅ February 2021
- Test completed ✅ August 2021
- Colour copies passport November 2021
- because I gave Test of citizenship outside of Canada , IRCC asked me for proof of exit/ entry, completed ✅ July 2022
- Today 25 months from the day IRCC received my application
- passport expired ( the only I have from my country but never renewed, never gone back to my country) , travelled to third country . Applied at May 2022 for Travel Document
- my PR card expired, too. Applied to renew on May 2022, this month is turned on “ Decision Made “ . May be is a negative decision???!!!
- Do you think that my case of citizenship is so slow because I used my passport?
Thanks for your help and giving your experience!
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
. . . seems using home passport for visiting third country does not cause any issue.
To be clear, just obtaining the home passport creates a PRESUMPTION of reavailment, and using it for any travel is additional evidence of reavailment.

How things "seem," and what may "apparently" be the case, very often can be contrary to the rules.

Overall:

The report is appreciated; all anecdotal reports are appreciated.

And it is indeed very likely that for a protected person who has already obtained a home country passport and used it to travel to a country other than their home country, consistent with what @ytyt reports, the RISK of a problem is probably low. Thus, for @Toronto1971, yes it is likely the use of an unexpired passport to travel to countries other than the home country is NOT causing problems and will NOT cause a problem.

First caution is that this may vary depending on how often the passport is used.

Overriding caution, which warrants repeating and repeating often, is that just obtaining a home country passport creates a PRESUMPTION of reavailment, and that is grounds for cessation. Cessation automatically terminates PR status.

So there is a big, big difference between worrying about what a protected person already has done VERSUS making future decisions. So, again, if all the protected person has done, so far, is obtain a home country passport and used it occasionally for brief travel to countries other than the home country, NO cause to worry. BUT, but, but, just as @ytyt was cautioned by border officials, to follow the rules means NO MORE travel using that passport, but rather only travel using a refugee Travel Document (RTD). AND, for a protected person who has not yet obtained a home country passport, do NOT do that.

Reminder 1: There may be a Conservative Prime Minister Poilievre sometime soon, anxious to implement immigration policies very friendly to some immigrants but determinedly not-so-friendly toward others, especially refugees. Those who rely on patterns of enforcement during the last seven years, under a Liberal government, do so at their peril.

Reminder 2: Canada applies the UNHCR guidelines, and many of the decisions in actual cases cite the UNHCR Handbook. There, at paragraph 121 it states:
If a refugee applies for and obtains a national passport or its renewal, it will, in the absence of proof to the contrary, be presumed that he intends to avail himself of the protection of the country of his nationality.


The Longer Explanation:

Am a protected person. I applied for a new passport from my home country,
and used it for vacation. On my return from vacation, border agency told me
to get an Adult travel document for future travel...no other issue from agent.

I just got my citizenship approved....no cessation issue.
Ironically, citizenship agent asked me to get exit and entry record from my home country.
I declined as I do not trust my home country and told him/her so.
I had no issue after that and now waiting for citizenship certificate.

Apparently, getting a new passport from home country and used it to travel to third country
do not cause issue for citizenship application. My application process took a year....normal.

I hope my experience can sooth some concerns with similar situation.
Reports like this are appreciated because they illustrate examples of actual experiences . . .
. . . and, for example, they offer some reassurance to individuals like @Toronto1971 that they do NOT need to worry about having used a home country passport for travel to countries other than their home country
. . . BUT, they do not indicate it is OK to obtain a home country passport, or to use the home country passport
. . . rather, just as YOU were told by a border official, a PR-protected person should obtain and use the RTD for international travel

. . . that is, a report like this comes with a huge caution: it shows how it has gone for one individual, illustrating how it goes for SOME at least SOME of the time (at least this one time). It does not represent the rule. It does not establish this is how it usually goes let alone how it will for sure go for someone else. In regards to the rule, to be clear: obtaining a home country passport creates a presumption of reavailment, and that alone is grounds for cessation; obtaining a home country passport and using it to travel to a third country INCREASES the RISK of cessation investigation.

That is, as Justice Manson stated in Jing v. Canada, 2019 FC 104, https://canlii.ca/t/hx631 (an official account of an actual case):
"There is a presumption that when a refugee applies for and obtains a passport from his country of nationality, it will be presumed that they intended to avail themselves of the protection of the country of nationality."​
And as Justice Walker, in Lu v. Canada, 2019 FC 1060, https://canlii.ca/t/j1w91 (another official account of another actual case) further stated, agreeing with Justice Manson with the solidly established rule that the act of applying for and obtaining a home country creates a presumption of reavailment, the difference travel to the home country makes is that means there is a "strong" presumption, making it more difficult for the protected person to rebut the presumption of reavailment.

Since you are now a citizen, the cessation provisions applicable to protected persons have no effect on you. In terms of Canadian status, you are as good to go as any other new Canadian citizen, which is as good to go as any born in Canada citizen. Congratulations.

And there are sufficient other reports similar to yours, to indicate that the RISK of cessation investigation (let alone proceedings resulting in cessation of status in Canada) are low enough for PR-refugees to not worry as long as (but only as long as) all they did, relevant to reavailment and cessation, was get a new passport from home country and only used it occasionally to travel to a third country.

So, for example, @Toronto1971 probably does NOT need to worry, NOT much anyway, about having used an unexpired home country passport for travel to countries other than the home country. And even other PR-refugees applying for citizenship who have renewed or otherwise obtained a new home country passport and used it only occasionally for travel, but never to the home country, probably have no need to worry about the risk of cessation.

BUT . . . there is NO doubt, NONE, that they should cease using the home country passport for travel and NOT renew or otherwise again obtain a home country passport, UNTIL AFTER they become a Canadian citizen.

Which, to be clear, is essentially what YOU were told by a border official: "On my return from vacation, border agency told me to get an Adult travel document for future travel."

Yep. Yep with emphasis. And for any PR with protected person status who has not yet obtained a home country passport, it is best to NOT obtain a home country passport, not for any reason, DESPITE reports like yours that show some who do, like you, do not run into problems.

To repeat, because it is worth repeating: To be clear, just the act of obtaining a new home country passport by a protected person constitutes a PRESUMPTION of reavailment, which is grounds for cessation of status. Using that passport, even for the purpose of traveling to third countries (not the home country), increases the risk of a cessation investigation.

In other words, be wary of what is "apparently" the case. In particular:
"Apparently, getting a new passport from home country and used it to travel to third country
do not cause issue for citizenship application. My application process took a year....normal."​

I suspect my focus on this being "apparently" is not what you meant. But the literal meaning demands attention. That is, even though it is probably not what you intended to convey, your description that it is "apparently" OK to get a home country passport and use it to travel to countries other than the home country is indeed ONLY how it may APPEAR . . . but doing this RISKS cessation.

Will follow with references . . . including yet another recent case . . . it appears that the cessation cases are finally moving through the process again.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
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Meanwhile, there is still another recent decision in a cessation case, Du v. Canada, 2022 FC 1145 https://canlii.ca/t/jr6r4

Here too the actual rule (which I repeat often), as stated in this decision by Justice Pallotta, is:

. . . obtaining a passport, and the consequent conferral of diplomatic protection, is sufficient to establish the third requirement of actual reavailment

Note: While Yu Ming Du and Feng Shuang Sun won the appeal, Justice Pallota carefully focused the decision on an explanation for why the RPD's decision was not reasonable, the RPD failing to adequately consider the evidence offered to rebut the presumption of voluntary reavailment. These individuals may still face cessation by another RPD. Like many other decisions, Justice Pallota's decision is consistent with the oft stated rule: there is a presumption of reavailment arising from obtaining a home country passport and using it . . . including using it to travel to a third country . . . "because passports entitle the holder to travel under the protection of the issuing country."


REFERENCES and CONTEXT:

As previously noted, Canada applies the UNHCR guidelines, and many of the decisions in actual cases cite the UNHCR Handbook. There, at paragraph 121 it states:
If a refugee applies for and obtains a national passport or its renewal, it will, in the absence of proof to the contrary, be presumed that he intends to avail himself of the protection of the country of his nationality.

Numerous official sources discussing actual cases documenting the rule, that just the act of obtaining a home country passport, in itself, creates a presumption of reavailment, have been referenced, cited, and linked in the posts above. It is true that the actual cases almost always (and it may be all) involve travel to the home country, but it is also true that this has occurred largely under an immigrant-including-refugees friendly Liberal government for the past 7 years. No one should underestimate the prospect that there may be a Conservative Prime Minister Poilievre sometime soon, implementing immigration policies very friendly to some immigrants (offering economic benefits for Canada) and determinedly not-so-friendly toward others, especially refugees.

No PR with protected person status should rely on the recent pattern of cessation enforcement. The ONLY SAFE approach is to be informed as to what the rules are, and follow them.

In any event, a selection of official sources (including those just cited) clearly stating the rule that just obtaining a home country passport creates a presumption of reavailment:

Canada v. Galindo Camayo, 2022 FCA 50, https://canlii.ca/t/jndkg (this is the Federal Court of Appeal decision which specifically establishes the rule for sure, and is binding precedent; decision written by FCA Justice Mactavish, and concurred in by FCA Justices Stratas and Rivoalen)​

Canada v. Safi, 2022 FC 1125, https://canlii.ca/t/jr4nw (Justice Strickland)​
Du v. Canada, 2022 FC 1145 https://canlii.ca/t/jr6r4 (FC Justice Pallotta)​
Jing v. Canada, 2019 FC 104, https://canlii.ca/t/hx631 (FC Justice Manson)​
Lu v. Canada, 2019 FC 1060, https://canlii.ca/t/j1w91 (FC Justice Walker)​

That is just a sampling of numerous such cases. There are also many additional cases which cite the presumption but which focus more specifically on travel to the home country (not just any use of the passport for travel), such as the recent decision by Justice Kane in Aydemir v. Canada, 2022 FC 987, https://canlii.ca/t/jqbt1

In any event, even if "apparently," or it "seems," there is no problem getting and using a home country passport, as long as it is not used to return to the home country, regardless of past actions, going forward PRs with protected person status should avoid using a home country passport for any travel, and avoid renewing or obtaining a home country passport.
 

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
To be clear, just obtaining the home passport creates a PRESUMPTION of reavailment, and using it for any travel is additional evidence of reavailment.

How things "seem," and what may "apparently" be the case, very often can be contrary to the rules.

Overall:

The report is appreciated; all anecdotal reports are appreciated.

And it is indeed very likely that for a protected person who has already obtained a home country passport and used it to travel to a country other than their home country, consistent with what @ytyt reports, the RISK of a problem is probably low. Thus, for @Toronto1971, yes it is likely the use of an unexpired passport to travel to countries other than the home country is NOT causing problems and will NOT cause a problem.

First caution is that this may vary depending on how often the passport is used.

Overriding caution, which warrants repeating and repeating often, is that just obtaining a home country passport creates a PRESUMPTION of reavailment, and that is grounds for cessation. Cessation automatically terminates PR status.

So there is a big, big difference between worrying about what a protected person already has done VERSUS making future decisions. So, again, if all the protected person has done, so far, is obtain a home country passport and used it occasionally for brief travel to countries other than the home country, NO cause to worry. BUT, but, but, just as @ytyt was cautioned by border officials, to follow the rules means NO MORE travel using that passport, but rather only travel using a refugee Travel Document (RTD). AND, for a protected person who has not yet obtained a home country passport, do NOT do that.

Reminder 1: There may be a Conservative Prime Minister Poilievre sometime soon, anxious to implement immigration policies very friendly to some immigrants but determinedly not-so-friendly toward others, especially refugees. Those who rely on patterns of enforcement during the last seven years, under a Liberal government, do so at their peril.

Reminder 2: Canada applies the UNHCR guidelines, and many of the decisions in actual cases cite the UNHCR Handbook. There, at paragraph 121 it states:
If a refugee applies for and obtains a national passport or its renewal, it will, in the absence of proof to the contrary, be presumed that he intends to avail himself of the protection of the country of his nationality.


The Longer Explanation:



Reports like this are appreciated because they illustrate examples of actual experiences . . .
. . . and, for example, they offer some reassurance to individuals like @Toronto1971 that they do NOT need to worry about having used a home country passport for travel to countries other than their home country
. . . BUT, they do not indicate it is OK to obtain a home country passport, or to use the home country passport
. . . rather, just as YOU were told by a border official, a PR-protected person should obtain and use the RTD for international travel

. . . that is, a report like this comes with a huge caution: it shows how it has gone for one individual, illustrating how it goes for SOME at least SOME of the time (at least this one time). It does not represent the rule. It does not establish this is how it usually goes let alone how it will for sure go for someone else. In regards to the rule, to be clear: obtaining a home country passport creates a presumption of reavailment, and that alone is grounds for cessation; obtaining a home country passport and using it to travel to a third country INCREASES the RISK of cessation investigation.

That is, as Justice Manson stated in Jing v. Canada, 2019 FC 104, https://canlii.ca/t/hx631 (an official account of an actual case):
"There is a presumption that when a refugee applies for and obtains a passport from his country of nationality, it will be presumed that they intended to avail themselves of the protection of the country of nationality."​
And as Justice Walker, in Lu v. Canada, 2019 FC 1060, https://canlii.ca/t/j1w91 (another official account of another actual case) further stated, agreeing with Justice Manson with the solidly established rule that the act of applying for and obtaining a home country creates a presumption of reavailment, the difference travel to the home country makes is that means there is a "strong" presumption, making it more difficult for the protected person to rebut the presumption of reavailment.

Since you are now a citizen, the cessation provisions applicable to protected persons have no effect on you. In terms of Canadian status, you are as good to go as any other new Canadian citizen, which is as good to go as any born in Canada citizen. Congratulations.

And there are sufficient other reports similar to yours, to indicate that the RISK of cessation investigation (let alone proceedings resulting in cessation of status in Canada) are low enough for PR-refugees to not worry as long as (but only as long as) all they did, relevant to reavailment and cessation, was get a new passport from home country and only used it occasionally to travel to a third country.

So, for example, @Toronto1971 probably does NOT need to worry, NOT much anyway, about having used an unexpired home country passport for travel to countries other than the home country. And even other PR-refugees applying for citizenship who have renewed or otherwise obtained a new home country passport and used it only occasionally for travel, but never to the home country, probably have no need to worry about the risk of cessation.

BUT . . . there is NO doubt, NONE, that they should cease using the home country passport for travel and NOT renew or otherwise again obtain a home country passport, UNTIL AFTER they become a Canadian citizen.

Which, to be clear, is essentially what YOU were told by a border official: "On my return from vacation, border agency told me to get an Adult travel document for future travel."

Yep. Yep with emphasis. And for any PR with protected person status who has not yet obtained a home country passport, it is best to NOT obtain a home country passport, not for any reason, DESPITE reports like yours that show some who do, like you, do not run into problems.

To repeat, because it is worth repeating: To be clear, just the act of obtaining a new home country passport by a protected person constitutes a PRESUMPTION of reavailment, which is grounds for cessation of status. Using that passport, even for the purpose of traveling to third countries (not the home country), increases the risk of a cessation investigation.

In other words, be wary of what is "apparently" the case. In particular:
"Apparently, getting a new passport from home country and used it to travel to third country
do not cause issue for citizenship application. My application process took a year....normal."​

I suspect my focus on this being "apparently" is not what you meant. But the literal meaning demands attention. That is, even though it is probably not what you intended to convey, your description that it is "apparently" OK to get a home country passport and use it to travel to countries other than the home country is indeed ONLY how it may APPEAR . . . but doing this RISKS cessation.

Will follow with references . . . including yet another recent case . . . it appears that the cessation cases are finally moving through the process again.
May I say something to you?
Sorry , but please; this is a simple forum of simple people. Try to write not so long and complicated, briefly answers are welcomed.
Try to be a bit positive, my friend!
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
May I say something to you?
Sorry , but please; this is a simple forum of simple people. Try to write not so long and complicated, briefly answers are welcomed.
Try to be a bit positive, my friend!
I understand. See "simple version" at end of this post.

And I do not intend to be negative.

But the consequences of cessation are not just harsh but for some it can be devastating.

The rule itself is actually quite simple. PRs who have protected person status should NOT obtain or renew a home country passport.

The application of this is also quite simple: If a PR with protected person status has a home country passport, they should NOT use that passport for ANY International TRAVEL. And, even if (like you) they have used a home country passport to travel (even if to the home country), they should (like @ytyt was cautioned by border officials) STOP using it and only travel with a RTD.

Notwithstanding how simple the rule is, and how simple its application, sporadic enforcement tends to invite "it's OK" comments, and the comments combined with the sporadic enforcement, along with some misinformation, seem to encourage others to not take the rule as seriously as the RISK warrants.

As someone who is immensely grateful to have a life in Canada, and as someone who is also aware of the real dangers many refugees would face if they lost status in Canada, I try to help get the word around about what the rules actually are and how refugees can best protect their status in Canada. It is not easy to explain the real risks without alarming those who have not totally followed the rules even though they do not need to worry much, so yeah, the explanations tend to be complicated.

It gets more complicated because the discussions can be both about risks for past behavior and about assessing risks for purposes of decision-making going forward.

Then, on top of all that, it is important to be clear this is not about my opinion. That means citing and discussing the actual law, including what is called "case law," and yeah, that's weedy, that gets real complicated real fast.

So, Simple Version; PR's with protected person status:
-- should NOT obtain or renew a home country passport
-- should NOT travel using a home country passport if they already have one

Beyond that, yeah, gets complicated. There are contingencies, and variables, and vagaries See previous, lengthy explanations.

As you have noted, the big risk comes from travel to the home country. If a PR-refugee has done this already, that's an even more complicated subject. Here too, see previous discussions, and proceed with caution.
 
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ytyt

Newbie
Aug 8, 2022
6
8
I understand. See "simple version" at end of this post.

And I do not intend to be negative.

But the consequences of cessation are not just harsh but for some it can be devastating.

The rule itself is actually quite simple. PRs who have protected person status should NOT obtain or renew a home country passport.

The application of this is also quite simple: If a PR with protected person status has a home country passport, they should NOT use that passport for ANY International TRAVEL. And, even if (like you) they have used a home country passport to travel (even if to the home country), they should (like @ytyt was cautioned by border officials) STOP using it and only travel with a RTD.

Notwithstanding how simple the rule is, and how simple its application, sporadic enforcement tends to invite "it's OK" comments, and the comments combined with the sporadic enforcement, along with some misinformation, seem to encourage others to not take the rule as seriously as the RISK warrants.

As someone who is immensely grateful to have a life in Canada, and as someone who is also aware of the real dangers many refugees would face if they lost status in Canada, I try to help get the word around about what the rules actually are and how refugees can best protect their status in Canada. It is not easy to explain the real risks without alarming those who have not totally followed the rules even though they do not need to worry much, so yeah, the explanations tend to be complicated.

It gets more complicated because the discussions can be both about risks for past behavior and about assessing risks for purposes of decision-making going forward.

Then, on top of all that, it is important to be clear this is not about my opinion. That means citing and discussing the actual law, including what is called "case law," and yeah, that's weedy, that gets real complicated real fast.

So, Simple Version; PR's with protected person status:
-- should NOT obtain or renew a home country passport
-- should NOT travel using a home country passport if they already have one

Beyond that, yeah, gets complicated. There are contingencies, and variables, and vagaries See previous, lengthy explanations.

As you have noted, the big risk comes from travel to the home country. If a PR-refugee has done this already, that's an even more complicated subject. Here too, see previous discussions, and proceed with caution.
dpenabill is correct.
I got my home country passport and used it to travel to third country while not knowing the
cessation risk. Looking back i should've gotten a Adult traveling Document and used it to
travel.


i have no intention to return to my home country...i was cautioned not to visit my home country
when i was granted PR.

As dpenabill implied...why take any risk if you don't need to.

bonus for using Adult travel document:
no visa requirement for many countries...most european countries.
my home passport is practically useless... visa requirement almost everywhere!

thanks dpenabill, you done a great job of keeping us informed...much appreciated.
 
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Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
I understand. See "simple version" at end of this post.

And I do not intend to be negative.

But the consequences of cessation are not just harsh but for some it can be devastating.

The rule itself is actually quite simple. PRs who have protected person status should NOT obtain or renew a home country passport.

The application of this is also quite simple: If a PR with protected person status has a home country passport, they should NOT use that passport for ANY International TRAVEL. And, even if (like you) they have used a home country passport to travel (even if to the home country), they should (like @ytyt was cautioned by border officials) STOP using it and only travel with a RTD.

Notwithstanding how simple the rule is, and how simple its application, sporadic enforcement tends to invite "it's OK" comments, and the comments combined with the sporadic enforcement, along with some misinformation, seem to encourage others to not take the rule as seriously as the RISK warrants.

As someone who is immensely grateful to have a life in Canada, and as someone who is also aware of the real dangers many refugees would face if they lost status in Canada, I try to help get the word around about what the rules actually are and how refugees can best protect their status in Canada. It is not easy to explain the real risks without alarming those who have not totally followed the rules even though they do not need to worry much, so yeah, the explanations tend to be complicated.

It gets more complicated because the discussions can be both about risks for past behavior and about assessing risks for purposes of decision-making going forward.

Then, on top of all that, it is important to be clear this is not about my opinion. That means citing and discussing the actual law, including what is called "case law," and yeah, that's weedy, that gets real complicated real fast.

So, Simple Version; PR's with protected person status:
-- should NOT obtain or renew a home country passport
-- should NOT travel using a home country passport if they already have one

Beyond that, yeah, gets complicated. There are contingencies, and variables, and vagaries See previous, lengthy explanations.

As you have noted, the big risk comes from travel to the home country. If a PR-refugee has done this already, that's an even more complicated subject. Here too, see previous discussions, and proceed with caution.
Thanks a lot! I do appreciate your advice but our stressful situation is not comfortable sometimes.
thanks again
 

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
dpenabill is correct.
I got my home country passport and used it to travel to third country while not knowing the
cessation risk. Looking back i should've gotten a Adult traveling Document and used it to
travel.


i have no intention to return to my home country...i was cautioned not to visit my home country
when i was granted PR.

As dpenabill implied...why take any risk if you don't need to.

bonus for using Adult travel document:
no visa requirement for many countries...most european countries.
my home passport is practically useless... visa requirement almost everywhere!

thanks dpenabill, you done a great job of keeping us informed...much appreciated.
Thanks sharing your info
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,301
8,902
Looking back i should've gotten a Adult traveling Document and used it to
travel.

...
bonus for using Adult travel document:
Can I ask a related question - you refer to it as an "Adult" travel document; does this mean that you received refugee status as a minor, or something else?