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Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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Hello, everyone, one of my friends was granted Convention refugee status in 2021 and now he got his PR as well he wants to travel USA using his country passport which is released by IRCC recently and his passport is valid so if he uses it can be a problem as he thinks he is was not against the state, etc so conditions do not apply on him and he thinks like there are no cessation cases where they cease applicant who traveled to other countries using a home country passport.
There is an open question about whether some persons with protected person status are subject to the cessation provisions in IRPA Section 108, but a "Convention refugee" is almost certainly among those covered.

I am no expert in refugee law, which has many tangents, nuances, and complicated technicalities. Among matters I cannot come close to explaining is who or why or when some "refugees" or "protected persons" have their home country passport returned to them. From what I have seen, anyone with refugee or protected person status, including those who are granted PR status, should presume and proceed on the assumption they are covered by IRPA Section 108, the cessation provision in Canadian law (see here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-13.html#h-275708 ) . . . UNLESS they have been clearly advised by a totally reliable source otherwise, such as a reputable immigration lawyer specializing in refugee law.

The consequences are so severe it is not a good idea, not at all, to be playing the odds.

While I do not know who gets their passport back, who does not, or how that relates to their status as a refugee or protected person, I have, nonetheless, seen enough cessation cases to recognize that the fact the passport has been returned to the individual does NOT mean they are not subject to the cessation provisions under either the UNHRC cessation provisions or Canada law as prescribed in IRPA Section 108, which are the same, the Canadian law specifically based on the UNHRC provisions.

Which is to say just because IRCC returned the passport does not necessarily mean he is not subject to cessation provisions.

An aspect of this I do know is that the nature of the underlying threat, whether it is from the state itself, or is from a non-state threat, does NOT determine whether the cessation provision applies. When a person qualifies for Convention refugee status based on a non-state threat, the situation must still be one where the state fails to protect the person from that threat. That is, the individual is granted protection because the country where the individual was living, typically the country of nationality (slightly different scenario for stateless persons), fails to provide them adequate protection.

So, the fact that his grant of refugee status "was not against the state" does NOT mean he is not subject to the cessation provisions.

Note, it is IRPA subsection 108(1)(a) that most refugee PRs in Canada run afoul of if and when they obtain or use a home country passport. This is the provision terminating protected person status if the individual has "voluntarily reavailed themself of the protection of their country of nationality." For example, applying for and obtaining a new or renewed passport is an overt act which is deemed (presumed) to constitute reavailment. Travel to and entering another country using the home country passport is an in-fact act evidencing reliance on the home country's protection (it is entering the country under the protection afforded by the country issuing the passport).

All That Said . . .

Your friend is probably correct that there is very little risk of reavailment proceedings if he uses the passport that has been returned to him to travel to the U.S., and perhaps to any country OTHER than the home country.

He is NOT entirely correct that "there are no cessation cases where they cease applicant who traveled to other countries using a home country passport." They have, and in such proceedings the official decisions upholding cessation have quoted such travel as actions supporting the cessation decision. However, there are almost always additional reavailment actions, typically including travel to the home country.

What he probably means is that they do not proceed with cessation against a refugee ONLY because the PR-refugee used the home country passport to travel to countries other than the home country. I am not sure he is entirely correct about this, but at the worst that is NOT common, and the risk is probably very low.

To be clear, however, that is ONLY about using the passport returned to the refugee. DIFFERENT situation if the refugee were to apply to the home country to renew the passport or to issue a new passport. Applying for or otherwise obtaining a new or renewed passport is not only something that is evidence of reavailment, it is PRESUMED to be reavailment.

EVEN THEN . . . however . . . it appears the risk of cessation remains low so long as the refugee does NOT travel to the home country. The vast majority of cessation cases in Canada against PRs appear to involve travel to the home country. So, absent travel to the home country, it appears (emphasis on APPEARS) that the risk of cessation is low or even very low.

BUT there are TWO CAUTIONS about this:

-- as noted, again and again, the consequences are so severe that any risk should give a refugee pause before taking the risk (the risk of falling when walking on a ledge are the same whether it is three metres or thirty metres above the ground, but the likely consequences of a fall are very different, making it far more dangerous to take that risk on the higher ledge)​
-- Canada has been governed by a largely immigrant and refugee friendly government, the Liberals, for many years now; in contrast, the law applying cessation to PR-refugees was adopted by the previous Harper-era Conservative government, and between 2012 and 2015 that government appears to have been far more aggressive in pursuing cessation cases; obvious risk is that this very narrowly held Liberal minority government could be out of office and a far less friendly to refugees Conservative government in place anytime . . . so the pattern of enforcement could change dramatically following an election, a more aggressive approach to cessation pursued . . . what gets a pass today may not get a pass in the coming year​
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
Question. I need to get a new refugee travel document to be able to travel out of Canada later this year. My question is however in my position isn't this endangering myself more. The reason being, after looking at the application form, it looks like filling a citizenship application again. Same questions on countries travelled and attaching the old passport if it's still valid. Won't this reignite a fresh investigation or trigger something. I know they probably have all the information in question they need already anyway from my citizenship application. Will they just let it pass now since they already have it? I'm confused about this. Anyone with suggestions? Because renewing my home country passport is also risky.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
Question. I need to get a new refugee travel document to be able to travel out of Canada later this year. My question is however in my position isn't this endangering myself more. The reason being, after looking at the application form, it looks like filling a citizenship application again. Same questions on countries travelled and attaching the old passport if it's still valid. Won't this reignite a fresh investigation or trigger something. I know they probably have all the information in question they need already anyway from my citizenship application. Will they just let it pass now since they already have it? I'm confused about this. Anyone with suggestions? Because renewing my home country passport is also risky.
At this juncture you are probably as well informed as anyone who visits this forum in regards to what is relevant and of potential concern in your situation. And you are of course far more informed of the particular facts and circumstances in your case. So I do not know how much anyone here can offer.

My sense is you should be working with a lawyer. I hope I have expressed that before (I should have if I didn't).

You recently expressed some optimism regarding progress in your citizenship application. It is always extremely difficult to forecast what next and when in any case involving non-routine processing, but far more so in regards to an application which has been suspended and entangled in extraordinarily lengthy processing times, as yours has. And even more so, over and above that, if there is the prospect of a particularly thorny issue like a potential cessation investigation or cessation proceedings.

That said, not much of a stretch to anticipate that either your optimism is well-founded, in which case it would seem likely your application would see some real progress soon, like a favourable decision and scheduling for the oath . . . OR, . . . things are headed in the other direction. Big difference between the two. I cannot conceive of even trying to guess which it is.

I understand your question. What might an application for a Travel Document revealing actions indicating reavailment (using home country passport for international travel for example) trigger? And yes, there is a difference between what is readily seen in an immigrant's GCMS records and CBSA travel history, and what a living official notices and pays attention to. And of course an application for a Travel Document will put your case, those records, and all, on the desk (or computer monitor desktop) of a different official in a different office than before.

So, as I said, I cannot conceive of even trying to guess what next, even as is, let alone if you were to make an application raising your case on yet another official's radar.

So, if I have failed to previously suggest, with emphasis, working with a lawyer to help you make these decisions, I will suggest that now. With emphasis. Best to be working with a reputable, competent immigration lawyer who actively practices refugee law.

Or lay low and wait.
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
I have finally consulted a lawyer. So in my case, mandamus is not recommended. The lawyer believes my application has dragged because of possible cessation proceedings going on. I'm inclined to believe him or at least act early in case.
However what I'm confused about is how the lawyer helps. Does he contact IRCC to find out about my case and take it up with them from there? Can IRCC give him such information? How do we act before receiving any information from them? Otherwise it appears as assumption, however much it's a good suggestion
 

Kambs16

Star Member
Nov 29, 2016
66
14
I obviously will. I was hoping someone on the forum has experience to share..why is precisely why I asked
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
I was hoping someone on the forum has experience to share..why is precisely why I asked
Not sure of the underlying reasons, although I can fully understand why many refugees may be more reticent if not paranoid, but it appears that few share much of their personal experiences in open forums like this. You are actually one of the few who has revealed much at all.

And this subject has not otherwise gotten a lot of attention or coverage.

When I started this topic, many years ago now, it appeared that even a lot of lawyers were not well familiar with the change in law (in 2012) and the impact it could have on PR-refugees, and for sure even the CIC call centre was still giving out erroneous information.

This is not a subject that is readily accessible in terms of practical, what is actually happening information.

I have finally consulted a lawyer. So in my case, mandamus is not recommended. The lawyer believes my application has dragged because of possible cessation proceedings going on. I'm inclined to believe him or at least act early in case.
However what I'm confused about is how the lawyer helps. Does he contact IRCC to find out about my case and take it up with them from there? Can IRCC give him such information? How do we act before receiving any information from them? Otherwise it appears as assumption, however much it's a good suggestion
What a lawyer can do for a citizenship applicant, a PR-refugee, or immigrants in general, is a big, broad subject. But in general terms it ranges from providing information or advice, to representation in which the lawyer acts on behalf of the client.

The main reason why lawyers can be helpful in regards to matters involved in the area of their actual practice is multifaceted:
-- lawyers know (or at least should know) how things work, based on knowing the rules, the laws, and very importantly they understand if and when and how to do further research into what the rules are, what the law is, and how it is being applied, AND​
-- lawyers with experience have an up-front, personal familiarity with actual cases, exposure to the manner and means and particulars in how CBSA and IRCC actually deal with immigrants in similar circumstances, which can help them know and better understand how things work in practice, AND​
-- lawyers have a knowledge base and analytical experience that helps them understand those processes and procedures, to discern what is important, what influences how things go, how the rules are being actually applied in practice, how this or that can affect what happens, AND​
-- clients can safely rely on divulging personal information to the lawyer, in confidence, so the lawyer can get a full and accurate view of all the relevant information . . . and the lawyer knows what is relevant . . . so that the lawyer can use all those other skills and knowledge to better evaluate the particular client's situation​

At this stage you are probably more interested in keeping lawyer costs down, turning to a lawyer mostly to review your case and, as best the lawyer can, give you a professional assessment of the situation . . . at the least discern certain things like whether you should be taking any affirmative, proactive action at this stage (like pursuing mandamus; for now "no" makes sense).

Here, now, for example, the question is whether or not you will be increasing your risks if you make an application for a refugee-travel-document. You do not need a lawyer to do that. But a lawyer might be able to give you some good insight into what the risks are and help YOU decide (depending on your needs and priorities) whether to proceed, taking those risks, or whether to keep on waiting.

That is, for now, given how far along the process is, consulting with a lawyer should be able to help you decide whether to proceed with getting a Refugee Travel Document, or to lay low longer. Along the way you may be screening lawyers to find the one you might turn to for representation if cessation proceedings are formally commenced against you.
 

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
Question. I need to get a new refugee travel document to be able to travel out of Canada later this year. My question is however in my position isn't this endangering myself more. The reason being, after looking at the application form, it looks like filling a citizenship application again. Same questions on countries travelled and attaching the old passport if it's still valid. Won't this reignite a fresh investigation or trigger something. I know they probably have all the information in question they need already anyway from my citizenship application. Will they just let it pass now since they already have it? I'm confused about this. Anyone with suggestions? Because renewing my home country passport is also risky.
You are not telling what really is going on, if you don’t explain- can’t be understood by others. What happened???
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
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Cessation case. Not related to a citizenship application. High number of trips to home country:

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2022/2022fc1143/2022fc1143.html
Even though there is no new substantive information in a decision like this, for those following this issue, and more so for those potentially affected by it, this Federal Court decision is nonetheless very useful, and the update is appreciated.

While there is no indication that Caballero was applying for citizenship, he was a Permanent Resident.

An additional recently decided cessation case is here: Canada v. Safi, 2022 FC 1125, https://canlii.ca/t/jr4nw

The Safi case is also about a PR (likewise no indication of a citizenship application), but it involves a contrary outcome, NO cessation of Safi's status, despite it was clear he had "returned voluntarily" to his home country, "his reason for doing so was not compelling," and his use of a passport from his country of origin created "a presumption . . . [he] intended to reavail and actually reavailed [himself] of the protection of [his] country of origin." The RPD determined Safi rebutted the presumption of reavailment, largely on the basis that Safi believed that once he became a PR it was OK to travel to his home country. The Federal Court, in a decision by Justice Strickland, did not agree so much as it simply ruled the RPD's decision was "reasonable," so the FC upheld the RPD and Safi did not lose refugee status, and collaterally did not lose PR status.

CAUTION: It warrants noting and emphasizing that the outcome for Safi does NOT, not at all, even suggest let alone mean that other PR-refugees should expect a similar outcome. On the contrary, taken and understood in context, despite the favourable outcome for Safi, this case illustrates the risk of losing status is very real and can result from just a couple trips to the home country.

Thus, one key take away, from both these cases, is that both illustrate potential reavailment cases are very much still being investigated, and that cessation proceedings are still being actively pursued. And again, despite the favourable outcome for Safi, that case nonetheless signals that PR-refugees traveling to their home country are very much risking the loss of their status in Canada.

In regards to Caballero v. Canada, 2022 FC 1143 https://canlii.ca/t/jr4p0 in particular:

The Caballero case illustrates and reinforces some important aspects of the risk of cessation. It illustrates, for example, that the time line for CBSA to commence cessation proceedings can be remarkably long. Note:

[12] On January 2, 2016, upon re-entering Canada from the US, a Canada Border Services officer (“CBSA Officer”) questioned the Applicant about his multiple trips to Colombia. The CBSA Officer referred the Applicant to the Minister for cessation of his refugee status.
[13] On August 10, 2020, the Minister made an application to the RPD for the cessation of the Applicant’s refugee protection pursuant to subsection 108(2) of the IRPA.

That is, for emphasis, the referral was made January 2, 2016 but cessation proceedings were not initiated until August 10, 2020.

At the time of the referral Caballero had made just four trips to Columbia in five years, all obviously for holidays around Christmas, the longest for just a bit more than three weeks. It was FOUR and a HALF more YEARS, after the referral, that CBSA initiated cessation proceedings.

It is probably worth highlighting that travel to and presence in his home country AFTER the referral was a key factor in the analysis, with particular emphasis on a seven month stay in Columbia AFTER the referral. I am reminded of posts in the asylum forum by forum participants like @Jedkhan (see posts here for example: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/get-passport-back.720701/page-16#post-9703020 ), individuals who have not yet, with a lot of emphasis on "NOT YET," run into a problem and claiming (erroneously) that means there is no problem.

While it is speculating, it seems very possible if not quite likely that the Cabellero referral in January 2016 might not have resulted in cessation proceedings in 2020 if, in the meantime, Cabellero had ceased using his home country passport and especially had ceased travel to his home country.


The Caballero case also addresses what appears to be a somewhat common misunderstanding about "reavailment where the agents of persecution is a non-state actor," which brings up a fairly recent post:
. . . one of my friends was granted Convention refugee status in 2021 and now he got his PR as well he wants to travel USA using his country passport which is released by IRCC recently and his passport is valid so if he uses it can be a problem as he thinks he is was not against the state, etc so conditions do not apply on him . . .
The Caballero affirms what I responded to that: the fact that the grant of refugee status was not against the state does NOT mean a PR-refugee is not subject to the cessation provisions.

Or, as Justice Ahmed stated, in the Caballero decision: "the refugee protection regime does not distinguish between state and non-state actors."

And otherwise notes that “diplomatic protection” is what is relevant when considering cessation, and not the availability of state protection, which is evidenced by using the home country passport (regarding which it warrants further noting that this is a big part of why just using a home country passport, to travel anywhere not just the home country, creates the presumption of reavailment).

You are not telling what really is going on, if you don’t explain- can’t be understood by others. What happened???
If you don’t explain what happened- nobody can share anything
Such details are better discussed in a confidential relationship with qualified legal counsel.

This is not an appropriate venue for getting into that level of "what happened," and in any event, others can share as they choose, nothing about what Kambs has not disclosed limits, in any way, what others can share.
 
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Toronto1971

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Dec 23, 2021
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Even though there is no new substantive information in a decision like this, for those following this issue, and more so for those potentially affected by it, this Federal Court decision is nonetheless very useful, and the update is appreciated.

While there is no indication that Caballero was applying for citizenship, he was a Permanent Resident.

An additional recently decided cessation case is here: Canada v. Safi, 2022 FC 1125, https://canlii.ca/t/jr4nw

The Safi case is also about a PR (likewise no indication of a citizenship application), but it involves a contrary outcome, NO cessation of Safi's status, despite it was clear he had "returned voluntarily" to his home country, "his reason for doing so was not compelling," and his use of a passport from his country of origin created "a presumption . . . [he] intended to reavail and actually reavailed [himself] of the protection of [his] country of origin." The RPD determined Safi rebutted the presumption of reavailment, largely on the basis that Safi believed that once he became a PR it was OK to travel to his home country. The Federal Court, in a decision by Justice Strickland, did not agree so much as it simply ruled the RPD's decision was "reasonable," so the FC upheld the RPD and Safi did not lose refugee status, and collaterally did not lose PR status.

CAUTION: It warrants noting and emphasizing that the outcome for Safi does NOT, not at all, even suggest let alone mean that other PR-refugees should expect a similar outcome. On the contrary, taken and understood in context, despite the favourable outcome for Safi, this case illustrates the risk of losing status is very real and can result from just a couple trips to the home country.

Thus, one key take away, from both these cases, is that both illustrate potential reavailment cases are very much still being investigated, and that cessation proceedings are still being actively pursued. And again, despite the favourable outcome for Safi, that case nonetheless signals that PR-refugees traveling to their home country are very much risking the loss of their status in Canada.

In regards to Caballero v. Canada, 2022 FC 1143 https://canlii.ca/t/jr4p0 in particular:

The Caballero case illustrates and reinforces some important aspects of the risk of cessation. It illustrates, for example, that the time line for CBSA to commence cessation proceedings can be remarkably long. Note:

[12] On January 2, 2016, upon re-entering Canada from the US, a Canada Border Services officer (“CBSA Officer”) questioned the Applicant about his multiple trips to Colombia. The CBSA Officer referred the Applicant to the Minister for cessation of his refugee status.
[13] On August 10, 2020, the Minister made an application to the RPD for the cessation of the Applicant’s refugee protection pursuant to subsection 108(2) of the IRPA.

That is, for emphasis, the referral was made January 2, 2016 but cessation proceedings were not initiated until August 10, 2020.

At the time of the referral Caballero had made just four trips to Columbia in five years, all obviously for holidays around Christmas, the longest for just a bit more than three weeks. It was FOUR and a HALF more YEARS, after the referral, that CBSA initiated cessation proceedings.

It is probably worth highlighting that travel to and presence in his home country AFTER the referral was a key factor in the analysis, with particular emphasis on a seven month stay in Columbia AFTER the referral. I am reminded of posts in the asylum forum by forum participants like @Jedkhan (see posts here for example: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/get-passport-back.720701/page-16#post-9703020 ), individuals who have not yet, with a lot of emphasis on "NOT YET," run into a problem and claiming (erroneously) that means there is no problem.

While it is speculating, it seems very possible if not quite likely that the Cabellero referral in January 2016 might not have resulted in cessation proceedings in 2020 if, in the meantime, Cabellero had ceased using his home country passport and especially had ceased travel to his home country.


The Caballero case also addresses what appears to be a somewhat common misunderstanding about "reavailment where the agents of persecution is a non-state actor," which brings up a fairly recent post:


The Caballero affirms what I responded to that: the fact that the grant of refugee status was not against the state does NOT mean a PR-refugee is not subject to the cessation provisions.

Or, as Justice Ahmed stated, in the Caballero decision: "the refugee protection regime does not distinguish between state and non-state actors."

And otherwise notes that “diplomatic protection” is what is relevant when considering cessation, and not the availability of state protection, which is evidenced by using the home country passport (regarding which it warrants further noting that this is a big part of why just using a home country passport, to travel anywhere not just the home country, creates the presumption of reavailment).




Such details are better discussed in a confidential relationship with qualified legal counsel.

This is not an appropriate venue for getting into that level of "what happened," and in any event, others can share as they choose, nothing about what Kambs has not disclosed limits, in any way, what others can share.
I am not a legal expert but experience is better.
One friend of mine gone to a lawyer, paying 300$ fee and asked about immigration law. Do you know what that lawyer said?
- Sorry ma’am, but with Immigration offices nobody knows and can predict what can be happened. Using your home passport to go to Cuba ( as a protected person PR) is not a crime. I know people that turned back from Cuba & Mexico and CSBA did not complain at all. Today they are Canadian citizens. Better don’t go back home till became Canadian, don’t renew your passport ( but by law , double citizenship is permitted too). Everything depends to your luck and the officer that decides for your citizenship application.-

These are the words of the lawyer very known in Toronto (I’m not naming his name).
 

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
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I am not a legal expert but experience is better.
One friend of mine gone to a lawyer, paying 300$ fee and asked about immigration law. Do you know what that lawyer said?
- Sorry ma’am, but with Immigration offices nobody knows and can predict what can be happened. Using your home passport to go to Cuba ( as a protected person PR) is not a crime. I know people that turned back from Cuba & Mexico and CSBA did not complain at all. Today they are Canadian citizens. Better don’t go back home till became Canadian, don’t renew your passport ( but by law , double citizenship is permitted too). Everything depends to your luck and the officer that decides for your citizenship application.-

These are the words of the lawyer very known in Toronto (I’m not naming his name).
( sorry, should correct….. CBSA )
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
I am not a legal expert but experience is better.
One friend of mine gone to a lawyer, paying 300$ fee and asked about immigration law. Do you know what that lawyer said?
- Sorry ma’am, but with Immigration offices nobody knows and can predict what can be happened. Using your home passport to go to Cuba ( as a protected person PR) is not a crime. I know people that turned back from Cuba & Mexico and CSBA did not complain at all. Today they are Canadian citizens. Better don’t go back home till became Canadian, don’t renew your passport ( but by law , double citizenship is permitted too). Everything depends to your luck and the officer that decides for your citizenship application.-

These are the words of the lawyer very known in Toronto (I’m not naming his name).
Not sure what your point is.

I am quite sure that your paraphrasing what a lawyer said is not close to what the lawyer actually said or meant. Not absolutely sure, since it's possible a lawyer pretty well said something like that, but knowing how these sorts of consultations generally go, I have a good idea what many if not most immigration lawyers will say in regards to questions that involve a big gap between what the rules prescribe and how they are enforced, so that there tends to be a lot of disparity and inconsistency in how the law is in practice applied to some individuals compared to others. Some may say "luck" plays a big role, but as has been discussed in just this topic alone, over the course of seven years and over forty pages of posts, there are numerous factors we know that can influence how things go. How many trips and for how long are two of the biggest factors, which have a lot more influence than "luck."

If you are saying the lawyer acknowledged many travel without a problem, but the safest approach is for a PR-refugee to not travel to their home country until after they have become a Canadian citizen, yep, that's the story. That's what has been discussed over and over again above, over the course of seven years and over forty pages of posts. That is how it is. Which is not fair in a lot of ways. Which results in conflicting and inconsistent outcomes, which one can say is text book injustice.

I have no idea why you think a traveler being "turned back from Cuba & Mexico" is at all relevant to the discussion here.

If you mean a PR with protected person status who has traveled to those countries and "returned" to Canada using a home country passport, and was not subject to cessation proceedings, and was able to become a Canadian citizen, that is indeed consistent with a lot of actual experience reported by PRs with protected person status. BUT we also know that in many actual cases in which PRs become the subject of cessation proceedings, their use of the home country passport for travel to any country not only creates the presumption of reavailment, it is used as evidence they voluntarily reavailed home country protection (as noted in Caballero, that is about "diplomatic protection") and is used to challenge the PR's efforts to rebut the presumption.

It is not clear, though, whether you are reporting what the lawyer said, or you are saying, here:
"Better don’t go back home till became Canadian, don’t renew your passport ( but by law , double citizenship is permitted too)."​

To be clear, EVEN when a refugee or protected person becomes a Canadian, that is when they become a Permanent Resident, they still SHOULD NOT travel to their home country or renew home country passport. Only AFTER they become a Canadian citizen, not just a Canadian PR, can they travel to their home country, or renew the home country passport, without any risk of cessation. (Reminder: Canadian PRs are Canadians.)

This was the mistake Safi made, thinking that once he became a Canadian, a PR, the home country travel restriction no longer applied. Perhaps he did benefit from "luck" in that the RPD accepted his explanation and there was no cessation of his status. In any event, he was wrong and is very fortunate he did not lose status. As I cautioned in my previous post, the outcome for Safi does NOT, not at all, even suggest let alone mean that other PR-refugees should expect a similar outcome.

Dual citizenship:

In regards to "double citizenship" and getting a passport from the home country, whether a person can be a citizen of more than one country depends on the laws in each respective country. Canada does not prohibit its citizens from being citizens of other countries. Not all other countries allow an individual to be a citizen of that country if the person is a citizen of Canada.

In any event, once a person who is a refugee has become a Canadian citizen, Canadian law does not limit or restrict or prohibit that person from obtaining a home country passport. So, as far as Canada is concerned, once the refugee is a Canadian citizen, then it will be OK to get a home country passport and travel to the home country. But whether a particular person can actually do that also depends on the law of that person's home country.

Moreover, to be clear, Canada does not actually limit, restrict, or prohibit PR-refugees from obtaining a home country passport or traveling to the home country. A PR-refugee is free to do that, but to do that means the person may no longer need protected person status in Canada, so there is a risk they will lose protected person status. If that happens now (since 2012) that automatically terminates PR status as well.

The Value of "Experience:"

Individual experience can be misleading. Safi, for example, can say "I used my home country passport to travel to my home country multiple times, and I did not lose status." That is a true description of Safi's experience. As I cautioned, and it warrants repeating with emphasis, that in no way means it is OK to do that, and it in no way means that another PR-refugee can use a home country passport to travel home and not worry about losing status.

Individual experience only shows what might happen. It is not enough, no where near enough, to illuminate what is likely to happen, and is not at all a reliable indicator of what will actually happen.

Lawyers, in contrast, have exposure to multiple and varied sources of "experience," ranging from what they learn in the specific cases they handle to what they learn (like some of us here) from officially published sources describing actual cases (IAD, RPD, and Federal Court decisions), as well as what some may say is "shop talk" among their colleagues. That "experience" combined with their education and knowledge of the law, and the specialized analytical skills they develop practicing law, enable them to be very valuable resources. That, however, does not make them prophets. In many situations lawyers cannot tell a PR-refugee for sure what will happen, when there are contingencies and things can go in different directions; and is especially so when, as there is in regard to cessation proceedings, a big gap between what the rules prescribe and how they are enforced.
 
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Toronto1971

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Dec 23, 2021
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161
Not sure what your point is.

I am quite sure that your paraphrasing what a lawyer said is not close to what the lawyer actually said or meant. Not absolutely sure, since it's possible a lawyer pretty well said something like that, but knowing how these sorts of consultations generally go, I have a good idea what many if not most immigration lawyers will say in regards to questions that involve a big gap between what the rules prescribe and how they are enforced, so that there tends to be a lot of disparity and inconsistency in how the law is in practice applied to some individuals compared to others. Some may say "luck" plays a big role, but as has been discussed in just this topic alone, over the course of seven years and over forty pages of posts, there are numerous factors we know that can influence how things go. How many trips and for how long are two of the biggest factors, which have a lot more influence than "luck."

If you are saying the lawyer acknowledged many travel without a problem, but the safest approach is for a PR-refugee to not travel to their home country until after they have become a Canadian citizen, yep, that's the story. That's what has been discussed over and over again above, over the course of seven years and over forty pages of posts. That is how it is. Which is not fair in a lot of ways. Which results in conflicting and inconsistent outcomes, which one can say is text book injustice.

I have no idea why you think a traveler being "turned back from Cuba & Mexico" is at all relevant to the discussion here.

If you mean a PR with protected person status who has traveled to those countries and "returned" to Canada using a home country passport, and was not subject to cessation proceedings, and was able to become a Canadian citizen, that is indeed consistent with a lot of actual experience reported by PRs with protected person status. BUT we also know that in many actual cases in which PRs become the subject of cessation proceedings, their use of the home country passport for travel to any country not only creates the presumption of reavailment, it is used as evidence they voluntarily reavailed home country protection (as noted in Caballero, that is about "diplomatic protection") and is used to challenge the PR's efforts to rebut the presumption.

It is not clear, though, whether you are reporting what the lawyer said, or you are saying, here:
"Better don’t go back home till became Canadian, don’t renew your passport ( but by law , double citizenship is permitted too)."​

To be clear, EVEN when a refugee or protected person becomes a Canadian, that is when they become a Permanent Resident, they still SHOULD NOT travel to their home country or renew home country passport. Only AFTER they become a Canadian citizen, not just a Canadian PR, can they travel to their home country, or renew the home country passport, without any risk of cessation. (Reminder: Canadian PRs are Canadians.)

This was the mistake Safi made, thinking that once he became a Canadian, a PR, the home country travel restriction no longer applied. Perhaps he did benefit from "luck" in that the RPD accepted his explanation and there was no cessation of his status. In any event, he was wrong and is very fortunate he did not lose status. As I cautioned in my previous post, the outcome for Safi does NOT, not at all, even suggest let alone mean that other PR-refugees should expect a similar outcome.

Dual citizenship:

In regards to "double citizenship" and getting a passport from the home country, whether a person can be a citizen of more than one country depends on the laws in each respective country. Canada does not prohibit its citizens from being citizens of other countries. Not all other countries allow an individual to be a citizen of that country if the person is a citizen of Canada.

In any event, once a person who is a refugee has become a Canadian citizen, Canadian law does not limit or restrict or prohibit that person from obtaining a home country passport. So, as far as Canada is concerned, once the refugee is a Canadian citizen, then it will be OK to get a home country passport and travel to the home country. But whether a particular person can actually do that also depends on the law of that person's home country.

Moreover, to be clear, Canada does not actually limit, restrict, or prohibit PR-refugees from obtaining a home country passport or traveling to the home country. A PR-refugee is free to do that, but to do that means the person may no longer need protected person status in Canada, so there is a risk they will lose protected person status. If that happens now (since 2012) that automatically terminates PR status as well.

The Value of "Experience:"

Individual experience can be misleading. Safi, for example, can say "I used my home country passport to travel to my home country multiple times, and I did not lose status." That is a true description of Safi's experience. As I cautioned, and it warrants repeating with emphasis, that in no way means it is OK to do that, and it in no way means that another PR-refugee can use a home country passport to travel home and not worry about losing status.

Lawyers, in contrast, have exposure to multiple and varied sources of "experience," ranging from what they learn in the specific cases they handle to what they learn (like some of us here) from officially published sources describing actual cases (IAD, RPD, and Federal Court decisions), as well as what some may say is "shop talk" among their colleagues. That "experience" combined with their education and knowledge of the law, and the specialized analytical skills they develop practicing law, enable them to be very valuable resources. That, however, does not make them prophets. In many situations lawyers cannot tell a PR-refugee for sure what will happen, when there are contingencies and things can go in different directions; and is especially so when, as there is in regard to cessation proceedings, a big gap between what the rules prescribe and how they are enforced.
Thanks for your explanation, but the most risky are:
1- do not travel to your country, wait to be Canadian
2- don’t renew your home passport
3- using your home passport to travel to countries ( a lot of people have NO info to use or not)as USA, Mexico, Cuba (not your country), the risk is very low. May be Immigration should notice the emigrants, because giving back a not expired home passport after the status of PR, may create the idea that till this passport is valid why not to use to go for vacation?
What do you think?