How to enter Canada while appeal of a removal order is in process

[meyakanor]

@meyakanor - I didnt get the calculation of 1111 days. I have been in Canada again from 27th Mar 2021-13th Dec 2021.Went to visit family on 13th and returned on 29th Dec. I am in Toronto since. You have me confused.

I was just counting the total number of days that you would be out of the country.

You said that you would be out of the country at the following periods:

Exit Canada after soft landing - 29th April 2018
Renter Canada - 27th March 2021

Travel back to home country for visit- 13th Dec 2021
Renter Canada - 29th Dec 2021

Current outbound trip back to be with family- 11th May 2022
Return back after spending time with family- 11th Jun 2022

If you sum up all the days above, you would get 1,110 days:
- 29 April 2018 - 27 March 2021: 1,063 days
- 13 Dec 2021 - 29 Dec 2021: 16 days
- 11 May 2022 - 11 June 2022: 31 days

In the first five years of your permanent residency, you should not be outside of the country for more than 1,095 days.

So, at the point of examination at June 11 2022, you would be at breach of RO, and will be at risk of getting reported.

 

[syahska]

Hi There , thank you. I did the other way around of the number of days of physical presence in Canada. My first entry into Canada was 8th Apr 2018 so i assume my 5yrs starts ticking from there. If thats the case im short by 17 days- i will need to be my my wife and family. My PR card expires end of May, if thats the case and i dont travel for another year then perhaps i can make it. @meyakanor , @dpenabill , @canuck78 / anyone- i seek your guidance

From	To	Days
2018-04-08​	2018-04-29​	21​
2021-03-27​	2021-12-13​	261​
2021-12-29​	2022-05-11​	133​
2022-06-12​	2023-04-06​	298​
		713​

 

[meyakanor]

Other members have explained to you that nobody can tell you what the exact chances are of getting reported. Nobody knows.

At this point, the only thing you can hope for is to get back into the country on June 11 2022 without getting reported.

Since you're only 17 days short (as of June 11 2022), CBSA may just wave you in (though, again, not guaranteed).

And if (on June 11 2022), you can get back into the country without getting reported, you should be prepared to stay in Canada (without leaving for a single day, without sponsoring anybody, and without renewing PR card or getting into any interaction with IRCC and CBSA) until at least June 12 2024.

Otherwise, you risk getting reported all over again.

 

[armoured]

Since you're only 17 days short (as of June 11 2022), CBSA may just wave you in (though, again, not guaranteed).

And if (on June 11 2022), you can get back into the country without getting reported, you should be prepared to stay in Canada (without leaving for a single day, without sponsoring anybody, and without renewing PR card or getting into any interaction with IRCC and CBSA)

I'm going to weigh in here ONLY to emphasize the points made by @meyakanor - bolded above. (i.e. I'm not keeping up with the date math)

As far as a 'plan' goes, this is a terrible plan. All sympathies with the situation you are facing, but if you have any interest in sponsoring your spouse in future without long periods apart or some addl flexibility to travel should anything further happen in future, simply put, this is not a plan but a 'throw your hands up and hope it works out' approach.

That doesn't mean it can't be done that way, and it may work out in the long term. But assuming that the arithmetic works and you are in compliance now, that's a large advantage to retain for some flexibility (quite a lot) in future.

That said, I strongly doubt that the immediate issue raised (whether you will get reported on returning in June) is that serious - there are actual H&C reasons, and anecdotally seems CBSA doesn't typically report for non-compliance that's measured in low weeks.

The real issues are the ones @meyakanor identifies and whether those trade-offs are acceptable.

 

[meyakanor]

That said, I strongly doubt that the immediate issue raised (whether you will get reported on returning in June) is that serious - there are actual H&C reasons, and anecdotally seems CBSA doesn't typically report for non-compliance that's measured in low weeks.

The real issues are the ones @meyakanor identifies and whether those trade-offs are acceptable.

Yeah, there are indeed several issues with this plan:
1. The possibility of getting reported at the border when OP attempts entry on June 11 2022
2. If he can pass #1, then there is the issue of not being able to sponsor wife or child until at least June 12 2024 (so wife and child won't get PR until at least mid-to-late 2025)
3. No travel out of Canada until at least June 12 2024 (or maybe longer because PR card may take a few months after application, unless OP wants to deal with applying for PRTD out of the country)
4. No application to renew PR card until at least June 12 2024 (so no valid PR card until a few months after this)
5. Having to live in Canada without a valid PR card for at least 16 to 18 months. Though in ON, this is less of an issue than, say, in BC (to renew driver's license for example).

 

[armoured]

Yeah, there are indeed several issues with this plan:
1. The possibility of getting reported at the border when OP attempts entry on June 11 2022
...
3. No travel out of Canada until at least June 12 2024 (or maybe longer because PR card may take a few months after application, unless OP wants to deal with applying for PRTD out of the country)

I suspect this will sound like I'm changing my tune but I don't mean to do so:

While I think anyone out of compliance should be concerned and careful about risking travel, this is not quite so black and white as the section I bolded seems to imply. It's true that travelling back to Canada will always have some risk for those out of compliance.

But this does not mean "no travel". And the risk involved is not binary, and there are some ways to mitigate.

Not to mention that being reported is not the same thing as having one's PR status revoked (although it does start the process, the PR gets an appeal).

It's been covered elsewhere but we know there are some things that get considered: humanitarian and compassionate reasons for being out of compliance (travelling while out of compliance), and consideration for one's ties and how settled one is in Canada.

Eg: a person who is well settled in Canada and travels for a family emergency, and is only slightly out of compliance, has less risk of both being reported and of losing an appeal (should it come to that).*

Now, I'm not at all suggesting that subsequent travel is a good idea in this case. (Or even the initial travel that takes the OP out of compliance).

But there is a risk/necessity/importance/urgency calc that only the individual can make. It's very useful to caution as you've done esp on the other apsects, but it's not 'no travel.'




*I flagged this because, if not already obvious, these two things are related: CBSA officers surely do NOT enjoy extra paperwork and effort to report every traveller, and quite obviously make some internal calculation about the likelihood of their report being overturned on appeal. They know the process is costly, lengthy, and a 'failed' report doesn't benefit anyone at all. We should all hope they don't ever decide to get overly strict about this, because if they did, the appeal system would grind to a halt in a matter of weeks.

 

[YVR123]

While I applied for my pr in 2017, I had mentioned my wife as non- accompanying partner and paid her fees but her pr was rejected and no explanation was provided.
it’s been hard.

Can you elaborate on this? You applied for PR and included your wife as non-accompanying. So why did you think she would get PR? (meaning of non-accompanying is that the partner will not get PR at the same time as the applicant.)

Or did you mean that you tried to sponsor her AFTER you landed and that application was refused?

btw. your situation has nothing to do with a "removal order" , right?

 

[syahska]

Hi there, i made a mistake i guess. My wife was unable to travel with me at the time of my first entry and hence i put her as non-accompanying. I erred.
Wrt my situation, Im just worried of being unable to enter the country in Jun. I will be here going further, since my job is here and ive signed my rental contract for another year.

 

[armoured]

Hi there, i made a mistake i guess. My wife was unable to travel with me at the time of my first entry and hence i put her as non-accompanying.

Just to flag, from your brief summary here, there's no (stated) reason why you couldn't sponsor your spouse in future.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi there, i made a mistake i guess. My wife was unable to travel with me at the time of my first entry and hence i put her as non-accompanying. I erred.
Wrt my situation, Im just worried of being unable to enter the country in Jun. I will be here going further, since my job is here and ive signed my rental contract for another year.

The posts by @meyakanor and @armoured cover what you mostly need to know and consider. In particular, as @armoured has described, while there is some RISK of being Reported (including a Removal Order) when you return in June, your odds appear to be favourable, meaning a good or very good chance you will not be issued a Removal Order when you return. (This time.)

Note that even if you were issued a Removal Order, you would be allowed to enter Canada and continue to work. An appeal will allow you to stay and work pending the appeal. You could continue to take trips outside Canada, even, as long as the appeal is pending.

This comes with some caveats: big one is that it depends a lot on the particular facts you have described.

Another caveat is that your H&C case has a weak spot, potentially a severely weak spot: the fact that your family is located abroad. In any case it is very difficult to quantify probabilities about how this or that factor will influence the outcome when keeping PR depends on H&C relief. This aspect of your situation makes it even more difficult to forecast how things might go.

Relative to this particular trip you have planned, based on the details you state, the odds still look good or very good you will be OK when you return (must caution, however, there is no guarantee). But if you need to travel abroad again before you have stayed two years, and thus need to rely on H&C relief in the future, the family's location, and your spouse's status, could be a factor that hurts your case. Your life appears to have stronger ties abroad than in Canada. The reason I mention this is that it seems likely there will be some need to travel to your family again before you are in compliance with the Residency Obligation. So it looks like there could be some tough days ahead, some tough decisions to make. I wish you well in navigating your way ahead.

 

[syahska]

Hello and thank you for your note. I understand the timing is delicate, perhaps if I reduce my travel from 30days to 12-14 days I won’t get into any challenges. I’m just lost since this trip is to bring my wife out of her she’ll emotionally.
Having said, since my employer has been kind to permit me to work from my home country, will these days be counted towards my PR. Of the 30 days, I will be working for 10 work days -14 weekdays and will be out of office for the remaining 15 days. During this period, I will continue to receive my salary in my Canadian account. I have a letter of approval to my employer as well as a calendar of the days and times I will be working. I’m stressed I agree!

 

[syahska]

My other question is, will the 730 days be counted from when - when? If my date of entry was 7th April 2018, 5years from there is 6th April 2023. My pr card expiry is 25th May 2023. So will the officer seek to calculate based on end date of 6th April or 25th May. If it’s the former, I will be short by 12 days, if latter then I will not have a problem.

 

[dpenabill]

Hello and thank you for your note. I understand the timing is delicate, perhaps if I reduce my travel from 30days to 12-14 days I won’t get into any challenges. I’m just lost since this trip is to bring my wife out of her she’ll emotionally.
Having said, since my employer has been kind to permit me to work from my home country, will these days be counted towards my PR. Of the 30 days, I will be working for 10 work days -14 weekdays and will be out of office for the remaining 15 days. During this period, I will continue to receive my salary in my Canadian account. I have a letter of approval to my employer as well as a calendar of the days and times I will be working. I’m stressed I agree!

No credit toward the Residency Obligation for working remotely abroad.

There is a RO credit for working abroad for a Canadian business in certain circumstances, but yours will not be anywhere near close to meeting the requirements for such a credit. There are other topics here where this credit, and how it is narrowly applied, is discussed. But again your situation would not come close.

My other question is, will the 730 days be counted from when - when? If my date of entry was 7th April 2018, 5years from there is 6th April 2023. My pr card expiry is 25th May 2023. So will the officer seek to calculate based on end date of 6th April or 25th May. If it’s the former, I will be short by 12 days, if latter then I will not have a problem.

Date of landing establishes the first five year period during which the PR is obligated to be present in Canada at least 730 days.

Date a PR card is issued is NOT relevant. Date a PR card expires is NOT relevant.

If you landed April 7, 2018, then until April 7, 2023 (the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing) you get RO credit for days actually IN Canada, plus any days left between the day the calculation is made and the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing (April 7, 2023). That is, until the fifth year anniversary the PR gets credit for days the PR could still spend in Canada.

My approach to the calculation is to count days abroad. Until the fifth year anniversary of landing a PR is in compliance with the RO as long as the total number of days outside Canada do not exceed 1095 (or 1096 counting a leap year). Until the fifth year anniversary the PR who has been abroad more than 1095 days is in breach by the number of days over 1095 (again, or 1096).

As of April 8, 2023 the calculation of your RO compliance will be based on number of days in Canada within the preceding five years as of that day. For example, as of May 21, 2023, if you were examined for RO compliance on that day, it would be based on the number of days in Canada between May 21, 2018 and May 21, 2023.

For a PR in the first five years who is in breach, a few days one way or the other is not likely to make much difference. Generally the smaller the breach the better. But that is relative.

Overall the risk for this upcoming planned trip seems low enough, especially compared to the need, to not worry too much about it. But as has been discussed, it is the longer term beyond that which will likely not be all that easy to navigate. If you can stay for basically two years, OK. If you stay a full year and make a short trip, still probably OK. But it looks like a full year might not be easy for you, let alone two.

 

[armoured]

Hello and thank you for your note. I understand the timing is delicate, perhaps if I reduce my travel from 30days to 12-14 days I won’t get into any challenges.

@dpenabill has covered the details.

Again - separate the instances at which you might have problems. Returning from this trip, even if a couple of weeks out of compliance, the chances are that you will be admitted without much trouble (possibly a warning); if reported, you will still be in Canada and able to appeal (where chances should be no worse).

BUT: the question mark is your plans for future. As noted several times: if you wish to sponsor your spouse, you will need to be in compliance (or wait until you are in compliance). Other potential issues covered in this thread as well.

I don't know what more anyone can do to point out the contradiction between travelling urgently to see one's spouse (all sympathy) and potentially not being able to sponsor that spouse to join in Canada or facing risk of issues when travelling to see that spouse for a couple of years.

No-one can make the decision about risks and trade-offs for you.

 

[YVR123]

Hello and thank you for your note. I understand the timing is delicate, perhaps if I reduce my travel from 30days to 12-14 days I won’t get into any challenges. I’m just lost since this trip is to bring my wife out of her she’ll emotionally.
Having said, since my employer has been kind to permit me to work from my home country, will these days be counted towards my PR. Of the 30 days, I will be working for 10 work days -14 weekdays and will be out of office for the remaining 15 days. During this period, I will continue to receive my salary in my Canadian account. I have a letter of approval to my employer as well as a calendar of the days and times I will be working. I’m stressed I agree!

When you work remotely, those days DO NOT count as your days in Canada.

The one that you mentioned are only counted for special cases when the company assigned a remote position temporary. Yours allow you to work remotely. So they cannot be counted towards your RO.