WEIRD behavior from Passport Canada agent, is this normal?

[Dreamlad]

I suggest we close this thread...

 

[trumprefugee]

The weather is way nicer for a start. It's not really the bureaucracy that bothers me, I honestly wouldn't mind if I was just asked to provide a ton of documentation, it's the social credit system that Passport Canada seemingly operates on that bothers me. My problem is social connections, not lack of documentation.

I do find this guarantor requirement very strange. I have never heard of any other country requiring a guarantor to get a passport. The US (my country of origin) certainly doesn't require that. Canada has already verified our pictures and identities multiple times with the citizenship application and also the PR application, both of which also required photos.

Good for you in shooting for Portugal next. It indeed has more favorable tax policies and is known among cryptocurrency investors for having the fairest tax laws regarding cryptocurrency. I also read that it has gotten so popular with immigrants going to the biggest cities that starting this year, the real estate you buy has to be outside of Lisbon or Porto.

If you do give up on getting the Canadian passport now, I wonder if you could get one more easily at a Canadian consulate in Portugal (or anywhere overseas) and if the consulates are more friendly. Maybe they would be less strict about the guarantor requirement for people applying from outside of Canada.

 

[kmoser]

They're "forcing you" to have a "huge social network."

They want you to find one person who'll sign a form on your behalf (and share basic info with the govt).

While that is possible for the majority, there's a minority for whom it isn't and surprise, that doesn't make us less of a citizen or some kind of criminal unless you expect everyone to conform to the same type of societal values as yourself. I have nothing to hide, I don't mind them double or triple cross-checking all my other info. They were even able to reach all my references and the woman who called me said she was pretty satisfied with them but just couldn't accept why I didn't pick one of the Canadian ones to be my guarantor - I suspect the original receiving officer had already made his own biased notes on my file and was the one who already rejected the application on Day 1 when I had submitted it. They probably just called the references today to confirm that two of them indeed have Canadian passports and use it as their official reason to reject the application. Either they mislead you on the official canada.ca website where it's stated, "If you can't find a guarantor you must (1) complete the Statutory Declaration in Lieu of Guarantor form (2) find someone who can administer an oath to swear to and sign the form" - nowhere is it stated that you are considered to have a guarantor if you've known someone with a Canadian passport even if they aren't willing to act as your guarantor, or the passport officers have discretionary powers to accept or reject applications arbitrarily depending on their individual whims and prejudices.

I will call them tomorrow to ask what official reason in writing they would provide me with if I can't get the two of my references to be my guarantor, and assess my odds of having their decision overturned in a court of law, or if it would even be worth it to pursue that route. Time and resources are of no consequence, I can still make my flight in 10 days using the passport from my country of origin. But I feel it's getting tiring to keep explaining my position, I don't expect anyone who hasn't walked in my shoes to understand, we just keep going around in a circle.

 

[kmoser]

I do find this guarantor requirement very strange. I have never heard of any other country requiring a guarantor to get a passport. The US (my country of origin) certainly doesn't require that. Canada has already verified our pictures and identities multiple times with the citizenship application and also the PR application, both of which also required photos.

Good for you in shooting for Portugal next. It indeed has more favorable tax policies and is known among cryptocurrency investors for having the fairest tax laws regarding cryptocurrency. I also read that it has gotten so popular with immigrants going to the biggest cities that starting this year, the real estate you buy has to be outside of Lisbon or Porto.

If you do give up on getting the Canadian passport now, I wonder if you could get one more easily at a Canadian consulate in Portugal (or anywhere overseas) and if the consulates are more friendly. Maybe they would be less strict about the guarantor requirement for people applying from outside of Canada.

Yeah it's crypto lol. Thank you for being among the few who understand, this post means a lot to me.

 

[Dreamlad]

I do find this guarantor requirement very strange. I have never heard of any other country requiring a guarantor to get a passport. The US (my country of origin) certainly doesn't require that. Canada has already verified our pictures and identities multiple times with the citizenship application and also the PR application, both of which also required photos.

Good for you in shooting for Portugal next. It indeed has more favorable tax policies and is known among cryptocurrency investors for having the fairest tax laws regarding cryptocurrency. I also read that it has gotten so popular with immigrants going to the biggest cities that starting this year, the real estate you buy has to be outside of Lisbon or Porto.

If you do give up on getting the Canadian passport now, I wonder if you could get one more easily at a Canadian consulate in Portugal (or anywhere overseas) and if the consulates are more friendly. Maybe they would be less strict about the guarantor requirement for people applying from outside of Canada.

Canada is a very very conservative country like UK. I could feel that after I landed.
BTW, bureancrats in the States are way nicer. I think it's because Americans always question the government like what @kmoser's doing.

 

[Dreamlad]

While that is possible for the majority, there's a minority for whom it isn't and surprise, that doesn't make us less of a citizen or some kind of criminal unless you expect everyone to conform to the same type of societal values as yourself. I have nothing to hide, I don't mind them double or triple cross-checking all my other info. They were even able to reach all my references and the woman who called me said she was pretty satisfied with them but just couldn't accept why I didn't pick one of the Canadian ones to be my guarantor - I suspect the original receiving officer had already made his own biased notes on my file and was the one who already rejected the application on Day 1 when I had submitted it. They probably just called the references today to confirm that two of them indeed have Canadian passports and use it as their official reason to reject the application. Either they mislead you on the official canada.ca website where it's stated, "If you can't find a guarantor you must (1) complete the Statutory Declaration in Lieu of Guarantor form (2) find someone who can administer an oath to swear to and sign the form" - nowhere is it stated that you are considered to have a guarantor if you've known someone with a Canadian passport even if they aren't willing to act as your guarantor, or the passport officers have discretionary powers to accept or reject applications arbitrarily depending on their individual whims and prejudices.

I will call them tomorrow to ask what official reason in writing they would provide me with if I can't get the two of my references to be my guarantor, and assess my odds of having their decision overturned in a court of law, or if it would even be worth it to pursue that route. Time and resources are of no consequence, I can still make my flight in 10 days using the passport from my country of origin. But I feel it's getting tiring to keep explaining my position, I don't expect anyone who hasn't walked in my shoes to understand, we just keep going around in a circle.

Even in China, you just need your ID card for a passport application and nothing else. Just can't call him winnie-the-pooh, watch out!

 

[bellaluna]

I have never heard of any other country requiring a guarantor to get a passport.

https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications

https://www.passports.gov.au/getting-passport-how-it-works/how-get-adult-passport#2

https://www.passports.govt.nz/what-you-need-for-your-application/identity-referee-or-witness/

Seems to be a Commonwealth thing....

 

[armoured]

While that is possible for the majority, there's a minority for whom it isn't and surprise, that doesn't make us less of a citizen or some kind of criminal

Note, you are making very different claims in different places. Here you are saying it is NOT possible (as opposed to uncomfortable or inconvenient as elsewhere in this thread) - but you did not make that case with government - and clearly not because your references could easily have qualified as guarantors. Had you - as I suggested - made a specific medical/psychological claim WITH EVIDENCE of such (eg doctor's note), you might have a plausible legal case to make (in my opinion, of course).

Otherwise, requesting that you follow a standard procedure that everyone else is held to is perfectly normal. And if you claim something is not possible and do not demonstrate that it is not possible, well, they've at minimum warned that there may be significant delays. (I think plausibly they could argue you simply haven't met the minimum administrative test, but that's a legal question).

I will call them tomorrow to ask what official reason in writing they would provide me with if I can't get the two of my references to be my guarantor, and assess my odds of having their decision overturned in a court of law, or if it would even be worth it to pursue that route. Time and resources are of no consequence

Please do, lawyers need work, too, and deep-pocketed clientele.

 

[gordinho]

Lol... we have now entered twilight zone.

 

[kmoser]

Note, you are making very different claims in different places. Here you are saying it is NOT possible (as opposed to uncomfortable or inconvenient as elsewhere in this thread) - but you did not make that case with government - and clearly not because your references could easily have qualified as guarantors. Had you - as I suggested - made a specific medical/psychological claim WITH EVIDENCE of such (eg doctor's note), you might have a plausible legal case to make (in my opinion, of course).

Otherwise, requesting that you follow a standard procedure that everyone else is held to is perfectly normal. And if you claim something is not possible and do not demonstrate that it is not possible, well, they've at minimum warned that there may be significant delays. (I think plausibly they could argue you simply haven't met the minimum administrative test, but that's a legal question).



Please do, lawyers need work, too, and deep-pocketed clientele.

It is not possible precisely because I'm not on good enough terms with the two references who could be eligible guarantors.
Yes originally I did intend to ask about submitting a statement in the event they called to tell me my application would be rejected if I fail to provide a guarantor. But now I don't see why I have to, especially after seeing others (and a couple who have been in Canada for even longer than me) apply without a guarantor without any issue. (I was diagnosed back home by my school psychologist two decades ago at the age of 11. My parents did not follow up with a formal clinical diagnosis because they feared that any sort of labelling would be more harmful than just growing up 'normally'). This morning I asked Passport Canada to close my file - they had left it open for me to resubmit the first page of the application signed by a guarantor and to avoid repaying the processing fees - and to send me the refusal reason in writing.

My decision to pursue this legally has been made. I really don't care about the cost or time that may take, it's not l like I'm gonna stop living my life in the meantime, I can travel almost anywhere with my home country's passport.

 

[kmoser]

Lol... we have now entered twilight zone.

Make a useful argument or kindly f off

 

[armoured]

It is not possible precisely because I'm not on good enough terms with the two references who could be eligible guarantors.

When I say 'not possible', I'm referring to not possible with a reason. Documented to satisfaction of officer. (That could be medical, as you seem to be claiming but at same time saying it's not-really medical or you don't feel like documenting, or it could be some other, I don't know - "I am a hermit for forty years and everyone I ever knew has died.")

All you have said so far to them (by not providing a reason other than "I'm not on good enough terms with") is "I don't care to."

It's your decision to proceed however you wish. I don't think you have a legal leg to stand on, but by all means, good luck.

 

[kmoser]

When I say 'not possible', I'm referring to not possible with a reason. Documented to satisfaction of officer. (That could be medical, as you seem to be claiming but at same time saying it's not-really medical or you don't feel like documenting, or it could be some other, I don't know - "I am a hermit for forty years and everyone I ever knew has died.")

All you have said so far to them (by not providing a reason other than "I'm not on good enough terms with") is "I don't care to."

It's your decision to proceed however you wish. I don't think you have a legal leg to stand on, but by all means, good luck.

I do not believe I have to provide any reason beyond "I was unable to find an eligible guarantor willing to fulfill that role for me". Any inference from this statement along the lines of "how is it conceivable for someone to live in Canada for 5 years without knowing anyone willing to perform that duty" is inherently laced with prejudice and expectations of conformity to some social norm. You have not commented on how it was possible for Passport Canada to approve several cases similar to mine but forcing me to provide a guarantor at any cost (if there were any security or other concern about my application I believe they would have informed me of such).
Anyway it seems like we are beating a dead horse here arguing with each other.

 

[armoured]

I do not believe I have to provide any reason beyond "I was unable to find an eligible guarantor willing to fulfill that role for me".

You can certainly test that belief of yours in court.

Any inference from this statement along the lines of "how is it conceivable for someone to live in Canada for 5 years without knowing anyone willing to perform that duty" is inherently laced with prejudice and expectations of conformity to some social norm.

A country IS a society with social norms. Not all of them are bad or illegal or unreasonable.

Youv'e been suggested alternatives (either just do it even if it makes you uncomfortable and you don't like it, OR document that you as an individual cannot do it [for reasons].) You don't like either of them. Go ahead - take them to court. Let us know how it goes.

 

[kmoser]

You can certainly test that belief of yours in court.



A country IS a society with social norms. Not all of them are bad or illegal or unreasonable.

Youv'e been suggested alternatives (either just do it even if it makes you uncomfortable and you don't like it, OR document that you as an individual cannot do it [for reasons].) You don't like either of them. Go ahead - take them to court. Let us know how it goes.

You still couldn't answer why they were able to approve other cases like mine without requiring those applicants to document why they couldn't find an eligible guarantor. Someone in this thread itself was approved without a guarantor and they had been in Canada for slightly longer than me.