Will it happen in Canada?
- Thread starter Baloo
- Start date
I'm not unsympathetic to your arguements. Years ago, before I knew anything about immigration I actually had some similar thoughts and ideas. However, having learned a great deal through education and experience in the past several years I've come to learn that the problems are much more complex and immigration is neither the "bad guy" or the "solution".
All of these taxes collected don't just go to the federal government. There are layers upon layers of taxes that trickle down through every level of government to pay for hospitals, schools, roads, etc. Perhaps you aren't seeing much in the way of road construction in Calgary (absolutely love the grid system in Calgary - easiest city in the country to navigate) but there have been literally billions of dollars poured into the lower mainland of Vancouver and surrounding areas in the last 10 years. New bridges, highways, etc. And it's ongoing.
However, I do AGREE that the Canadian government should look at investing in educating young Canadians and assisting them more. This idea has real potential that I also wish the government would look at more closely.
Look, I could go on and on but there are so many factors that go into immigration and the "numbers" that it requires much more than surface knowledge or believing everything that is written in the newspapers to create some sensationalism. You have to look at the ageing populations, skills shortage, low birth rate, etc. I mean, you can't go out and tell Canadians that they MUST have more babies, therefore providing adequate numbers of people entering the work force in 20 years, therefore ensuring that they are paying enough taxes to fund your pension in 40 years now can you?
You also have to look at those students who "never want to leave" after they are educated in Canada. So first they pay triple the tuition (Canada benefits), they usually use little to no healthcare because they are young and healthy (Canada benefits), they pay rent, buy food, go to movies, use cell phones, buy clothes, (Canada benefits), they become permanent residents and start their career here paying into our tax system (Canada benefits), they buy houses and cars and pay more taxes (Canada benefits), they start business in Canada creating jobs for Canadians (Canada benefits), etc. Of course it's not always 100% to Canada's benefit but if you are playing the numbers, the house (Canada) wins on this one.
The "broken" state of our healthcare system is NOT due to immigration. That's another complicated mess which requires an indepth understanding of social healthcare. But one might also say that citizens should be accountable for smoking, drinking and getting too darn fat. Look at what "costs" the taxpayer money in healthcare these days. There's a lot more evidence to blame McDonald's than immigrants.
You also know that permanent residents can't vote right? Only citizens vote.
I like the fact that you are thinking about this stuff and I hope that you will take it upon yourself to learn more about it. The average Canadian does not know much about immigration and I really wish they did. It's truly eye opening when you dig deeper and I'm pretty sure that if you take it upon yourself to study this further, you will realize that it's not so black and white. Hey, maybe even some of your opinions will change! But even if they don't, at least you will have better educated yourself about the complexities of it and understand it at a much deeper level. You'll see that it's not as simple as some media and politicians would have us believe. In fact, you may even come up with some ideas that could benefit the country because when you know better, you do better.
Tax dollars PAY for quality of life. Increasing the tax base (number of tax payers) increases the amount of revenue a government receives to fund these programs. Increasing industry and investment in business in Canada also increases the tax base as well as provides more jobs to people living in Canada. And to use the "quality of life" arguement means you must compare it to someone else. What country in the world has a better "quality of life" for it's citizens than Canada AND the government isn't head over heels in debt? Canada is a special country in that we are both capitalist and socialist. That's a tall order but somehow, we keep trying to fill it. And surprisingly enough, given how darn complicated the economics of it is, we don't do a bad job.AAL1984 said:
All of these taxes collected don't just go to the federal government. There are layers upon layers of taxes that trickle down through every level of government to pay for hospitals, schools, roads, etc. Perhaps you aren't seeing much in the way of road construction in Calgary (absolutely love the grid system in Calgary - easiest city in the country to navigate) but there have been literally billions of dollars poured into the lower mainland of Vancouver and surrounding areas in the last 10 years. New bridges, highways, etc. And it's ongoing.
I wouldn't call the UK a dump. But maybe that's just me. However, I don't even think you can make a comparision of Canada to the UK on any measure. Canada is less than 200 years old. England has been around for a millenia. Canada also only borders one country and has an ocean on either side making transit to us a little tougher, not just crossing a Channel. Canada also has significantly more natural resources and commodities than the UK. We have also never colonized any countries then given status to citizens of those countries in any way, shape or form. A lot of reading of the history books will help you understand how the UK is what it is today and you will learn it's not all due to immigration. But like anything, it's more complicated than it seems. In my view, comparing our two countries in terms of immigration when so many other differing factors play into the successes and failures of these programs is like comparing apples and oranges. It doesn't work.AAL1984 said:
For your first statement, I think that is exactly what Mr. Kenney is trying to do. This "exceptional quality" you are talking about is a combination of youth, education, and experience only in certain sectors for the federal skilled worker program. Then you also must study the provincial nominee programs and you will see that they are VERY focused on immigration when it IMPROVES the economics of that province. If it improves productivity, business performance and pumps more money into the economy and one of the ripple effects is that it means governments on all levels get more tax dollars. Mr. Kenney is also focused on decreasing the numbers of refugees and obviously parents/grandparents allowed to become permanent residents of Canada. Read Bill C-11.AAL1984 said:
However, I do AGREE that the Canadian government should look at investing in educating young Canadians and assisting them more. This idea has real potential that I also wish the government would look at more closely.
Look, I could go on and on but there are so many factors that go into immigration and the "numbers" that it requires much more than surface knowledge or believing everything that is written in the newspapers to create some sensationalism. You have to look at the ageing populations, skills shortage, low birth rate, etc. I mean, you can't go out and tell Canadians that they MUST have more babies, therefore providing adequate numbers of people entering the work force in 20 years, therefore ensuring that they are paying enough taxes to fund your pension in 40 years now can you?
You also have to look at those students who "never want to leave" after they are educated in Canada. So first they pay triple the tuition (Canada benefits), they usually use little to no healthcare because they are young and healthy (Canada benefits), they pay rent, buy food, go to movies, use cell phones, buy clothes, (Canada benefits), they become permanent residents and start their career here paying into our tax system (Canada benefits), they buy houses and cars and pay more taxes (Canada benefits), they start business in Canada creating jobs for Canadians (Canada benefits), etc. Of course it's not always 100% to Canada's benefit but if you are playing the numbers, the house (Canada) wins on this one.
The "broken" state of our healthcare system is NOT due to immigration. That's another complicated mess which requires an indepth understanding of social healthcare. But one might also say that citizens should be accountable for smoking, drinking and getting too darn fat. Look at what "costs" the taxpayer money in healthcare these days. There's a lot more evidence to blame McDonald's than immigrants.
You also know that permanent residents can't vote right? Only citizens vote.
I like the fact that you are thinking about this stuff and I hope that you will take it upon yourself to learn more about it. The average Canadian does not know much about immigration and I really wish they did. It's truly eye opening when you dig deeper and I'm pretty sure that if you take it upon yourself to study this further, you will realize that it's not so black and white. Hey, maybe even some of your opinions will change! But even if they don't, at least you will have better educated yourself about the complexities of it and understand it at a much deeper level. You'll see that it's not as simple as some media and politicians would have us believe. In fact, you may even come up with some ideas that could benefit the country because when you know better, you do better.
Well the foremost expert on immigration and its impact is Harvard economist George Borjas, he has argued that too much immigration harms the economy. 250,000 + immigrants is just way way too much in my opinion, and in the opinion of many economists. This has got to be reduced.
Further there was a study done which shows that immigrants cost 23 billion per year more than what they repay in taxes, these are studies done by prominent economists.
Here is the study
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/immigration-and-the-canadian-welfare-state-2011.pdf
I would look at this debate on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKLC1nLh3hI
Both men raise some good points.
Whatever your views, I think it is important for Canadian citizens to be informed on this matter and to make their views heard to politicians. Canadians are far too complacent and apathetic on this matter, but slowly people are getting more informed.
We need politicians who have the guts to stand up to the immigration lobby, and who are willing to stand up for what is in the best interests of Canadians! Far to often politicians are afraid to do anything about immigration for fear of being branded racist, which is complete hogwash. Race and skin color has nothing to do with immigration policy.
Further there was a study done which shows that immigrants cost 23 billion per year more than what they repay in taxes, these are studies done by prominent economists.
Here is the study
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/immigration-and-the-canadian-welfare-state-2011.pdf
I would look at this debate on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKLC1nLh3hI
Both men raise some good points.
Whatever your views, I think it is important for Canadian citizens to be informed on this matter and to make their views heard to politicians. Canadians are far too complacent and apathetic on this matter, but slowly people are getting more informed.
We need politicians who have the guts to stand up to the immigration lobby, and who are willing to stand up for what is in the best interests of Canadians! Far to often politicians are afraid to do anything about immigration for fear of being branded racist, which is complete hogwash. Race and skin color has nothing to do with immigration policy.
Really? But in Hong Kong, taxpayer does not need to pay for emergency response and ambulance request. I heard it is about $50 and $80 respectively in BC. There is no HST in Hong Kong. Well, Hong Kong is also a special region that they are both capitalist and socialist.rjessome said:
Really? But there's one strait that separates Nunavut (Canada) from Greenland (Denmark)! Why wouldn't Canada want to increase its trade relationship between the two countries (just crossing a strait)? Study your geography again. Canada has also significantly more natural resources and commodities than Denmark.rjessome said:
Well quoted, rjessome !!AAL1984 said:
AAL1984,
Well , you are in that country because of immigration - If not you, your ancestors were given an opportunity to immigrate. The goverment does tally the benefits immigration can bring to a country when they open doors under any category - and I second your opinion about refugees and the category for parents/grandparents. But hey, the ratio is being magnified for sure . If you want to succeed, then you need to work it off rather than sit back and moan about the immigrants snatching the job - a better way to do it is to relax and think that you or one of your clan was an immigrant who paved a way in to be a citizen in that soil - thats exactly what each person who qualify is trying to do. Lol !
Seriously? You want to compare an island that is 80.5 square kilometers with a population of 1.6 million people to Canada? And you're comparing the Baffin Strait to the English Channel??? Tried dipping your toes into the Baffin Strait waters lately? Don't recall icebreakers being a part of any navy in the middle ages or at anytime up to the mid-20th century. If you want to disagree with me just for the sake of it, then go for it but you gotta do better than comparing apples to freaking watermelons!steaky said:Really? But in Hong Kong, taxpayer does not need to pay for emergency response and ambulance request. I heard it is about $50 and $80 respectively in BC. There is no HST in Hong Kong. Well, Hong Kong is also a special region that they are both capitalist and socialist.
Really? But there's one strait that separates Nunavut (Canada) from Greenland (Denmark)! Why wouldn't Canada want to increase its trade relationship between the two countries (just crossing a strait)? Study your geography again. Canada has also significantly more natural resources and commodities than Denmark.
Well, sure there have been literally billions of dollars poured into the lower mainland of Vancouver and surrounding areas in the last 10 years, but some projects are just a mess. One example was the Olympic Village, which was rebranded and renamed as "Millenium Waters" and now "The Village of the False Creek".
Often I seen residential presales projects in London (UK), Singapore, Sydney (Australia), Melbourne (Australia) and other US cities being marketed and sale outside their country of jurisdiction, but not Canada in recent years. Last one I seen was over ten years ago by Concord Pacific in Vancouver. As Canada benefits when people buy houses in Canada and pay more taxes, and if the city of Vancouver is short of buyers, why didn't the city hire real estate traders overseas to help them to sell the Olympic Village as presales like other countries? They could have saved much legal, renovation and rebranded costs.
Often I seen residential presales projects in London (UK), Singapore, Sydney (Australia), Melbourne (Australia) and other US cities being marketed and sale outside their country of jurisdiction, but not Canada in recent years. Last one I seen was over ten years ago by Concord Pacific in Vancouver. As Canada benefits when people buy houses in Canada and pay more taxes, and if the city of Vancouver is short of buyers, why didn't the city hire real estate traders overseas to help them to sell the Olympic Village as presales like other countries?
They could have saved much legal, renovation and rebranded costs. I'm also comparing HK and Canada. Don't recall that the decommissioned aircraft carrier being part of the amusement park near the border of Hong Kongrjessome said:Seriously? You want to compare an island that is 80.5 square kilometers with a population of 1.6 million people to Canada? And you're comparing the Baffin Strait to the English Channel??? Tried dipping your toes into the Baffin Strait waters lately? Don't recall icebreakers being a part of any navy in the middle ages or at anytime up to the mid-20th century. If you want to disagree with me just for the sake of it, then go for it but you gotta do better than comparing apples to freaking watermelons!
there are scenarios where people get the citizenship and leave to their home country.AAL1984 said:
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/going-back-home-t87875.0.html;msg1103754#msg1103754
I know about those scenarios, those people just come to Canada for citizenship so they can get visa free access to other countries and so they can come to Canada to take advantage of generous health benefits. This is their intention from the beginning. Many of them have good jobs and money , they just want the Canadian passport for easy travel. To me this is fraud, and it cheapens our Canadian citizenship.steaky said:I'm also comparing HK and Canada. Don't recall that the decommissioned aircraft carrier being part of the amusement park near the border of Hong Kong
there are scenarios where people get the citizenship and leave to their home country.
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/going-back-home-t87875.0.html;msg1103754#msg1103754
However, believe me things will change, ordinary Canadians are waking up to this fact. This is why we gave the conservatives a majority government, slowly but surely things will tighten up.
I believe for some one like you who is going to sponsor his/her spouse, Is just an extra talk. If you belive immigrant bring their troubles and lots of money to be spent for them, So you are the first one who is responsile, Because as soon as your spouse become immigrant, there will be lots of free service to her/him and you should consider that too. On the other hand trust me the only reason Canada still stands while other contry like US and european suffers form the recent economy's resession is because of these immigrant's money which they brought as an investors or the same. Do you really think immigrant just come here and do nothing, and this is the goverment money or your tax to be spent for them, So it is better to look back and see how many precent of immigrant are homeless and always trying to find the way to avoid paying the taxes and how many are real canadian. As you just see there is us who working our but off since the first day coming here and pay the taxes as you do. Beside you should not worry about the health part of it since all immigrants being filterd and examinded before becoming immigrant and mostly have no problem for vey long time. It is good to be wise but trust me those who works in this goverment know alot better that those short minded like you who just say something without even thinking he is actually part of it. 8)
hamedsilent said:
Do you know anything about spousal sponsorship? If your spouse gets any public funds you must, must as the sponsor pay it back to the government or you will be in serious trouble! That is the whole idea of spousal sponsorship.
Also look at the study I quoted above, it says that immigrants cost approx 23 billion per year more than what is gained in benefits.
I am not saying we don't need immigrants, however, 250,000+ that is too many. Majority of Canadians DO NOT WANT THIS, we don't want it, and no one asked us.
Generous health benefits, ay? Why would you want to pay thousands more in US for better health care or other treatment? Please suggest your provincial government to improve its health care instead!AAL1984 said:
I think the undertaking is 3 years from the date of landing. But what happens after that?AAL1984 said:
Really? The number of people granted permanent residence to Canada has increased steadily since 2007. Last year was the highest in 50 years. And the Conservatives were in office for all of those years. And so far, every news release I've seen for 2012 indicates an increase.AAL1984 said:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2011/index.asp
The conservatives were a minority government, a minority government is at the mercy of the opposition.rjessome said:
The NDP and Liberals would have never allowed the conservatives to change immigration rules in terms of putting a hold on parent/grandparents or changing refugee rules, or introducing conditional PR (In process I think). Only now do the conservatives have a majority, give them time.
People are beginning to realize that 250,000 immigrants is way too much, the conservative party base does not want this!
haha .. you and your 250,000 figure !AAL1984 said:
What are you doing in this forum ? I see that you started off by asking for help/advice from the experts in regards to the spousal sponsorship and then turning your speech into '' why the heck are the remaining asking questions to come over to the country that I have made my haven??''
duh !