Whether a family with children can enter Canada with expired PR Cards through US

[Sydkadra]

Dear All and Particularly David

Your point of argument neither new nor had not been discussed earlier. Many forums are replete with the posts about the plight of Skilled Workers who were better off with handsome pay and commensurate jobs in their previous countries of residents and who migrated to Canada for various reasons, the main being the similar job opportunities and the high standards of education for their children whose education will be compatible with those of many countries worldwide. After migrating to Canada those PRs who held good jobs find it hard to not only find commensurate jobs but are forced to work for paltry sums which will not make their ends meet and hence after some time they have two choices one to stay put with the lower standard of living compared to what they had earlier and work in the areas ( if they are lucky to get) which is not at all compatible with their professional qualification and experience or to back to the country of resident to work (if they are lucky to get back their jobs which they left at the time of migrating to Canada) or to go to their country of origin where they find to live comfortably with sums ( which may not be equivalent to what they get in Canada) but sufficient to live. The sacrifice they make is to children's education which will not be available in their home country.
As you pointed out correctly, if the job market is booming and as soon as they land get the job I don't think that most of the PRs will leave Canada on economic grounds than on personal exigencies and want to abide by all rules and regulation and become the citizens. Many of friends who chose to stay say that they would struggle for 3-4 years until they get citizenship and as soon as they get they will fly either to the green pastures or to US to work as you know that US has a colossal job market and they need professionals who have the skills needed for the job with much ease.
It is all on the jobs if you get it with much ease then you won't find any PR leaving the country for long. Now, they go and spend their time in earning and make savings and spend their savings during their stay with a profound hope that when their children get Canadian educated in good universities will find better job opportunities and live happily settled.
As you might notice that the Express Entry program is not that successful which links the PR status with the Job offer and as you guess you hardly get a job offer for a person who away than many already available to do the same job and at a discounted price.
In the end there shall be leniency with PRs as this kind of situation is known to all Canadians, CIC and CBSA and in the end the economic activity will grow if you have population's presence, participation and productivity.
The best part is that the PRs are aware that Canada is one of the best countries on the planet and want to be part of its growth eventually when they finally decide to make it home for good.

 

[Leon]

Leon, the question I ask is: why Canadian PR's in such large numbers try to avoid staying in Canada?
Are PR's to blame for a fact that they can't get gainful employment in Canada and are forced to work at Walmart or flip burgers, even those who have higher education and qualified for immigration under Skilled Worker visa?
We have less generous provisions for US PR, true, but don't you ask yourself why there are no US forums where as many US PR share their worries of returning to US after long absences? Don't you think this has something to do with totally limp job market rather than sneaky and law breaking immigrants being reluctant to live where they were granted PR status?

There are no US forums for these questions? Here is one: http://www.immihelp.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/13-After-Green-Card-ReEntry-Permit-Retaining-Green-Card

I think there is a difference between Canadian PR's and green card holders though in the way that it's not very easy to get a green card as a skilled worker off the bat without first coming to the US on a work permit and if you make it to the US on a work permit, you already managed to get the job that got you in while in Canada at least in the past, they would give you PR just based on education and work experience and you might apply for it, then wait for it, possibly for years, then move and then find out that you can't get a job.

Needless to say, those immigrants could of course have put out the feelers before immigrating in order to find out if there were jobs for them before spending all their savings and moving house. I can't forget a post from a couple who immigrated to Canada under the skilled worker program some years ago. Probably when I joined this forum in 2008. They had looked for a nice place to live, bought a nice little house there. Put their kids in school. Then only realized that this village they lived in had no jobs except at Walmart. Oops.

Anyway, as you say, Canada might have a lot more PR's that came, couldn't get a job, then left again. Although, I am not sure why you would want to keep your Canadian PR if that was the case. What are you going to do with PR in a country where you can't get a job?

Although, there are also loads more Canadian PR's who applied for it as a backup, not necessarily with the intention to move to Canada. They were working somewhere else, possibly even in the US where they were having a hard time getting a green card and wanted a backup plan if they suddenly could no longer stay there. Alberta PNP at one time even had a special application class for US visa holders. So anyway, at the point their PR cards get close to expiring is when they first realize that they didn't meet the RO and if there is a way to rescue their PR status.

So maybe Canada had just made it way too easy to get PR. If the only immigration class was CEC, it would be more similar to the US and you wouldn't have any PR's who'd never lived and worked in Canada and possibly never even intended to settle in Canada and hence you would have a lot less people who "forget" to meet their RO.

 

[keesio]

keesio, let me also ask you the question I hope you or someone else will answer here.

First, a quick background: As you well know we are talking here about specific class of immigrants, the Skilled Workers who come to Canada for Skilled Work in one of the areas where Canadian government claims they have a shortage of workers. We are not talking about refugees or those who simply boarded a ship and came to Canada or America taking a blind gamble with their future, as immigrants used to do 120 or more years ago, and some still do even today.
We are talking here about modern Skilled Workers who were specifically told that Canada has shortage of labor in THEIR field ,which requires Higher Education, and they are needed in Canada to fill existing , perhaps desperately looking for a candidate vacancy.
How this PR must feel, after spending thousands of dollars, selling property, bringing savings, hopeful for a bright future, and finally discovering that not only there is no shortage of workers, but there is extreme abundance of very desperate immigrants looking for a job that they struggle for months or even years to get? What is the mental state of someone who is in professional career , hasn't been flipping burgers since may be going to college and working part time, yet once again forced to work at a place like a Walmart or McDonalds, as if one had only a high school education and no professional experience at all?
Isn't there ANY responsibility at all towards these people who were given a wrong impression that their skills and higher education will be sought in Canada? And after all they are the ones who must be penalized ? Why not also penalize those who advertised non existent jobs for skilled immigrants and brought enormously greater number of immigrants to Canada than there are jobs requiring their skills?

The real issue is the barriers that Canada puts up for skilled immigrants who cannot even work in their chosen field because of all the barriers they need to hurdle. This is the key issue, not that the skills are not in demand. I can sympathize... or at least my wife can. My wife landed as a PR almost 2 years ago. She is a trained physiotherapist and with over 10+ years of experience before she landed. But she could not work as she had to get licensed in Ontario. She had to take multiple classes, multiple exams and pay thousands of dollars in various fees to be able to get licensed. She got really depressed at what was needed and wanted to go back home. However she stuck with it and after a year and a half later she was finally done and is working. But it was a journey. And we are lucky because I was employed, money was not an issue, and she didn't have to take a survival job but instead focus on her studies and do volunteer work. But she knows many others not so fortunate (many in FSW class), needing to work survival jobs because they have families to support and it slows them down. Some even decided Canada was not for them and left, gave up PR without much care. This is a big problem I have talked about for awhile. The running joke that some of the most educated people in Toronto are the taxi drivers - forced to do survival jobs while they wait for a chance to work in their desired field. This is a tremendous loss right now and the barriers must be reduced. Everyone benefits from this. But again, this is a separate issue than looking to keep PR despite not living in Canada.

 

[david1697]

There are no US forums for these questions? Here is one: http://www.immihelp.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/13-After-Green-Card-ReEntry-Permit-Retaining-Green-Card

I think there is a difference between Canadian PR's and green card holders though in the way that it's not very easy to get a green card as a skilled worker off the bat without first coming to the US on a work permit and if you make it to the US on a work permit, you already managed to get the job that got you in while in Canada at least in the past, they would give you PR just based on education and work experience and you might apply for it, then wait for it, possibly for years, then move and then find out that you can't get a job.

Needless to say, those immigrants could of course have put out the feelers before immigrating in order to find out if there were jobs for them before spending all their savings and moving house. I can't forget a post from a couple who immigrated to Canada under the skilled worker program some years ago. Probably when I joined this forum in 2008. They had looked for a nice place to live, bought a nice little house there. Put their kids in school. Then only realized that this village they lived in had no jobs except at Walmart. Oops.

Anyway, as you say, Canada might have a lot more PR's that came, couldn't get a job, then left again. Although, I am not sure why you would want to keep your Canadian PR if that was the case. What are you going to do with PR in a country where you can't get a job?

Although, there are also loads more Canadian PR's who applied for it as a backup, not necessarily with the intention to move to Canada. They were working somewhere else, possibly even in the US where they were having a hard time getting a green card and wanted a backup plan if they suddenly could no longer stay there. Alberta PNP at one time even had a special application class for US visa holders. So anyway, at the point their PR cards get close to expiring is when they first realize that they didn't meet the RO and if there is a way to rescue their PR status.

So maybe Canada had just made it way too easy to get PR. If the only immigration class was CEC, it would be more similar to the US and you wouldn't have any PR's who'd never lived and worked in Canada and possibly never even intended to settle in Canada and hence you would have a lot less people who "forget" to meet their RO.

Leon, most (if not all) of those people are NOT "hiding" from US (in a sense that Canadian PR's in breach of RO do).
They are applying for a 2 yr permit , to be able to return to US after lengthy absence.
Under US law (If i am not mistaken) US PR's can relatively easily apply for 5 years of absence from US (2 times for 2yr permit, and once for 1 yr permit. Must be present in US to apply, and also to get fingerprints, can pick up the permit abroad, at US Embassy). As long as you keep property, pay taxes, bank accounts and maintain certain ties to US you have low chances of being issued a removal recommendation by the border officer.
After 5 years of continuous absence I think they must go through some additional explanation of reasons why they are still absent.
Thus, even though on a face value Canadian RO is more generous than US, in practice there are US PR's who are legally and lawfully staying out of US for up to 5 years, and are able to return to US afterwards.
On any event, most of those people posting in a forum you posted a link to are NOT trying to "hide" from US in breach of RO, but are individuals who have official job offers (or whose spouses or family members have a job or some business to take care of abroad), and they openly petition US government to allow them to preserve their PR status. Everyone gets approved for at least 2 years, and many get additional 2yr and 1yr permit without much hassle.

As to differences, there are indeed greater number of Immigrants in US who come here based on immediate relationship to US Citizens, our Immigration system in fact is more family friendly and much less geared towards skilled worker. That's the reason why a lot of skilled workers from heavy use of Worker Visa countries(those in H visa category and coming from China or India) get frustrated and in fact immigrate to Canada, Australia or elsewhere.

But in US, if one day we had terrible job market, few immigrants if any could expect anyone to share any responsibility for their decision to come to US. Did US encourage them to come here, did US tell them there is shortage of workers or immediate relatives in US? The fact is US never said anything like that to anyone. Everyone took chances and came here voluntarily, most to unite with their US Citizen relatives. So, although our job market is in relatively better shape, should it one day go down the tubes who can blame US for it?

It's complete opposite of it in Canada, because when we are speaking of Federal Skilled Workers, we are referring to people who were deliberately selected for their SKILLS and as workers in a category where supposed labor shortage exists. There is a big difference between the two categories
of Immigrants (US PR based on relationship to USC and Canadian PR based on Skills).

Therefore, the point I make is:
Are Canadian PR's the ones to blame for a fact that they can't get gainful employment in Canada and are forced to work at Walmart or flip burgers, even those who have higher education and qualified for immigration under Skilled Worker visa?
If not, why are they singularly penalized for not staying in Canada? Why not also penalize those who are responsible for bringing a lot more skilled immigrants than there are jobs in Canada to hire them? If we don't want to (or can't) penalize latter,then why scapegoat former?


You further ask:
Anyway, as you say, Canada might have a lot more PR's that came, couldn't get a job, then left again. Although, I am not sure why you would want to keep your Canadian PR if that was the case. What are you going to do with PR in a country where you can't get a job?

I can answer this question right away: because me and my family made huge sacrifices, made an investment, put a lot of effort forward, material and non-material, to attain Canadian PR.

We didn't get it free, we paid for all the fees through all stages. It cost us thousands of dollars in gov and legal fees alone.
We had to study for English language tests (IELTS) and live through stressful days waiting to learn if we passed it or not (in fact my wife failed it the first time, because she was truly stressed out, between working full time job, being a wife and a mom ,and had to retake it , which she then passed with high score).
We had to take our fingerprints and cross out fingers that FBI would not take months to process it (as many people complained at the time), hoping we would be lucky and get results before cut-off date to have a chance to submit our applications.
We had to request the police report from any place/country we lives in past, which included our country of birth ,with which we lost almost all and any communications. How easy do you think it is to deal with a non-Western country when requesting your records?
How about med tests, which you can only take in one or two places in a whole state, must pay hundreds of dollars per person and drive hours to get to medical practitioner whose report is accepted by Canadian government?
I can continue, but anyone who had qualified for Canadian PR status knows how time consuming, how much effort consuming and how much cost requiring endeavor it is to apply, qualify and land in Canada as PR.
Why should we want to have all our efforts go in vane and into a waste basket? Would you?

 

[david1697]

The real issue is the barriers that Canada puts up for skilled immigrants who cannot even work in their chosen field because of all the barriers they need to hurdle. This is the key issue, not that the skills are not in demand. I can sympathize... or at least my wife can. My wife landed as a PR almost 2 years ago. She is a trained physiotherapist and with over 10+ years of experience before she landed. But she could not work as she had to get licensed in Ontario. She had to take multiple classes, multiple exams and pay thousands of dollars in various fees to be able to get licensed. She got really depressed at what was needed and wanted to go back home. However she stuck with it and after a year and a half later she was finally done and is working. But it was a journey. And we are lucky because I was employed, money was not an issue, and she didn't have to take a survival job but instead focus on her studies and do volunteer work. But she knows many others not so fortunate (many in FSW class), needing to work survival jobs because they have families to support and it slows them down. Some even decided Canada was not for them and left, gave up PR without much care. This is a big problem I have talked about for awhile. The running joke that some of the most educated people in Toronto are the taxi drivers - forced to do survival jobs while they wait for a chance to work in their desired field. This is a tremendous loss right now and the barriers must be reduced. Everyone benefits from this. But again, this is a separate issue than looking to keep PR despite not living in Canada.

keesio, in US we also have tremendous barriers for physicians. Not only you must pass tests, which are alone a great deal of accomplishment, but you must go through residency and people from abroad struggle for years to get their license, but almost anyone I know succeeded in the end and ended up becoming a practicing doctor in US. Licensing requirement alone, in my humble opinion, is not a real issue to me, I think it is there for our common protection, as we don't want someone clueless of medicine or our standards of care to become our doctor.

What I think a real big issue is? I discovered the answer along with my spouse, as we kept applying for hundreds of jobs in Canada, with generic "we decided to go with a better candidate....." mantra instead of a job interview received.
My impression was that for each job we applied for there were may be hundreds of other desperate job applicants, who also wanted badly to get that particular job, no matter what job we applied for. It seemed as if there are endless numbers of job applicants we were competing against, and if there are 500 people applying for any kind of job, you have 499 out of 500 chances not to be selected for it.
That's not a competition, that's a crisis in a job market. It means there is an enormous over abundance of skilled workers, and a real shortage of skilled jobs in Canada now. This is what the issue, in my opinion, is.
And there are two ways to solve such problem: either create a lot of jobs or halt further job based immigration.
If you can't create as many skilled jobs as you bring skilled immigrants, then what do you think will happen once the immigrants arrive?

 

[keesio]

keesio, in US we also have tremendous barriers for physicians. Not only you must pass tests, which are alone a great deal of accomplishment, but you must go through residency and people from abroad struggle for years to get their license, but almost anyone I know succeeded in the end and ended up becoming a practicing doctor in US.

It IS easier in the US. How do I know? Because I had one friend who immigrated from Eastern Europe and she had a brutal time trying to practice as a doctor in Canada. She and her husband loved Canada but once they got their citizenship, they jumped to the US. Now she is a doctor in the US. Not only is the barrier to get licensed higher here, but when you finally get licensed, you don't have full control over where you can practice. She was also worried they would likely place her in some rural area because that is where the demand is... and she did not want to leave the major urban centres (my wife's friend's husband is also stuck at this part where he is finally close to getting licensed as a doctor and he may end up somewhere remote). Anyway, she said the US experience was much much easier, less red tape by far. Also, my wife said that for her to get her license in Canada was much more cumbersome and costly. She said foreign trained physiotherapists coming to the US have it much easier than going to Canada.

Also the job market goes through cycles. It was only a few years ago you saw articles like this:
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/america-canada-jobs/

 

[david1697]

It IS easier in the US. How do I know? Because I had one friend who immigrated from Eastern Europe and she had a brutal time trying to practice as a doctor in Canada. She and her husband loved Canada but once they got their citizenship, they jumped to the US. Now she is a doctor in the US. Not only is the barrier to get licensed higher here, but when you finally get licensed, you don't have full control over where you can practice. She was also worried they would likely place her in some rural area because that is where the demand is... and she did not want to leave the major urban centres (my wife's friend's husband is also stuck at this part where he is finally close to getting licensed as a doctor and he may end up somewhere remote). Anyway, she said the US experience was much much easier, less red tape by far. Also, my wife said that for her to get her license in Canada was much more cumbersome and costly. She said foreign trained physiotherapists coming to the US have it much easier than going to Canada.

Also the job market goes through cycles. It was only a few years ago you saw articles like this:
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/america-canada-jobs/

keesio, I believe you that it's harder to get license in Canada than in US. I know how hard it is to get licensed as a doctor in USA (unless you graduate from med school HERE), so I can only imagine how much tougher it must be in Canada if people come here from Canada to become doctors.
Nevertheless, I am OK with it. If I was a doctor and had to pass these hurdles, I would find it inconvenient, perhaps even very inconvenient. But, in the end, it would mean less competition in the field for me. And, most importantly, it would mean I can trust to take my children to doctors, knowing they are well qualified to practice, because only the good ones were allowed to practice.

But what am I supposed to do if 500-1000 people apply for every job I apply to? How can I beat 500 people by creating better resume than 499 of others can? How can I impress interviewing HR in 30 minutes that I am more deserving of a spot than 499 of others are? That is if I am lucky enough to even get an interview, which may never happen at all!

If I had to pass legal tests, read court cases, interpret them and pass some kind of exam and obtain permission to work in legal field, I would welcome it. The harder it was the better off in the end I would be, because I know I can study and get high grades on legal course work.
But what am I supposed to do if there are hundreds of equally qualified people for each individual job I am applying for?
That was a real barrier I faced in Canada, and it seemed to be a lot harder one than we had in US even in 2011.
In fact, I don't care what newspapers print , I know that getting a job in US in 2010-2011 was easier than in 2014.
Don't be mistaken, it's VERY HARD to get a job in US. We have fierce competition here and you have to go through lots of disappointing, discouraging and outright depressing job interviews before you land one.
BUT it's possible and doable if you are persistent enough. You do get phone calls if you keep sending resumes, you do get invitations to interviews if you don't give up and keep applying. You do get job offer eventually if you are unwilling to accept NO for an answer.
In Canada we did NOT get even phone calls, except my spouse got ONE phone call and I had ONE phone call with invitation to an interview out of hundreds of applications we BOTH sent out. We just NEVER made it in Canada.....

 

[scylla]

We have less generous provisions for US PR, true, but don't you ask yourself why there are no US forums where as many US PR share their worries of returning to US after long absences? Don't you think this has something to do with totally limp job market rather than sneaky and law breaking immigrants being reluctant to live where they were granted PR status?

There are many US immigration forums that discuss this very matter. Sounds like you haven't bothered to search?

 

[david1697]

There are many US immigration forums that discuss this very matter. Sounds like you haven't bothered to search?

please read my reply to Leon, I already addressed the US forum discussion of travel permits.

i notice people get defensive and often reply based on emotional impulse (>>I live in Canada>>I feel attached to Canada>> David1697 says something critical of Canada>>>David is wrong etc). the reality is what it is. no matter how we feel about it. in this case, the fact is Canada has worse job market than US. another fact is we are here talking about FSW, not just any other class of immigrants. we talk about FSW who were told there is a shortage of labor, that their skills are in need and sought after in Canada. only to discover after arrival that Walmart and Burger King are the only places where their "skills" are really sought after, and getting a job anywhere else is an enormous struggle (that for some take years to materialize, others just give up and leave Canada). in light of the fact that these are FSW's (who were told there is shortage of labor and their skills are needed by Canada, while neither is proving to be so), how plausible it is to punish those immigrants per se, for failing to meet RO, who can't move to Canada because there is no skilled job for them?

 

[Leon]

Therefore, the point I make is:
Are Canadian PR's the ones to blame for a fact that they can't get gainful employment in Canada and are forced to work at Walmart or flip burgers, even those who have higher education and qualified for immigration under Skilled Worker visa?

IMO in many cases the answer is yes. There are plenty of people who do not plan their immigration, do not check if there are jobs for them, do not check licensing issues and then arrive in Canada and fall hard and flat on the face. Ouch. But nobody to blame but themselves.

So immigration may have said there was a shortage in your field. They did not promise you a job, did they? I applied as a skilled worker myself and nobody ever promised me a job lined up as far as I recall. I got the ticket in and then I had to fend for myself.

I can answer this question right away: because me and my family made huge sacrifices, made an investment, put a lot of effort forward, material and non-material, to attain Canadian PR.

We didn't get it free, we paid for all the fees through all stages. It cost us thousands of dollars in gov and legal fees alone.
...
Why should we want to have all our efforts go in vane and into a waste basket? Would you?

So what do you want to get for your efforts?

What do you think immigration should do for you? Do you think they should give you a pass on the RO if you prove that you have applied for X jobs and didn't get any?

 

[SergiiK]

Keesio - regarding hurdles and barriers to get re-certified. I, for example, totally support Canadian approach because among those really skilled educated people there are many who literally bought their diplomas or exams and are really low-skilled. Look at latest scandal from India regarding bribes in medical schools. It is not a secret that you can bribe teachers in order to get necessary grade in a lot of countries.
Would you like to have such family doctor? I don't think so.

 

[Msafiri]

Dear Msafiri, Leon, Scylla all other experts.

In continuation with the above thread, what difference will be there for PR who travels after March 2016 by commercial transport and those with Private Vehicles and cross the US/Canada Border which is applicable to Visa-Exempt and Non-Visa-Exempt PRs. It seems that other documents which will be valid for travel between US/Canada Land Borders are the Nexus Cards/Valid PR Cards and Canadian Passport. Why question is whether the COPR or the Immigration Landing Paper will no longer be a valid document entering Canada in Private Vehicles ( own or rental). I appreciate if the experts clarify in detail about the changes which will come into effect in March 2016 as per the CIC , the link is given
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=064&t=10
Thank you for your reply

Land border crossings are not an issue and use of landing docs will continue. Since the Charter gives PRs the right of entry in theory any PR making it to the border must be admitted even if you don't have documents but CBSA can take their sweet time to verify your details before admitting you. The eTA is for commercial airline travel.

 

[keesio]

Keesio - regarding hurdles and barriers to get re-certified. I, for example, totally support Canadian approach because among those really skilled educated people there are many who literally bought their diplomas or exams and are really low-skilled. Look at latest scandal from India regarding bribes in medical schools. It is not a secret that you can bribe teachers in order to get necessary grade in a lot of countries.
Would you like to have such family doctor? I don't think so.

Yes I do agree that there needs to be some sort of evaluation and and requirement to get licensed in Ontario because you need to see if that person's experience and education properly translates. But the overhead and barriers are really too much. And for the health professionals, they GOUGE you with fees! I think it was $800 just to get my wife's degree recognized (honestly, $800 to get my wife's masters degree from Columbia University in NYC recognized?). Then a few hundred here to file for this, a thousand here to take a test there, another few hundred to take a required seminar here, etc etc etc. It is much less costly in the US since she knew foreign educated health workers when she worried in the US. As I mentioned earlier, we were lucky because money was not an issue. But my wife knew many people in her classes who had to take loans to pay these fees while they work survival jobs to make ends meet. Many of these new immigrants are stuck putting their certification on hold while they try to juggle everything and some never end up coming back to it.

So yes, I agree that it is very good that we make sure these foreign trained professionals are up to par here. But they really can make it easier. Honestly why let these immigrants in based on their profession and then go around and tell them that they can't work in their profession right away (or perhaps at all)? Either streamline the process or be more picky regarding FSW applicants.

 

[david1697]

IMO in many cases the answer is yes. There are plenty of people who do not plan their immigration, do not check if there are jobs for them, do not check licensing issues and then arrive in Canada and fall hard and flat on the face. Ouch. But nobody to blame but themselves.

So immigration may have said there was a shortage in your field. They did not promise you a job, did they? I applied as a skilled worker myself and nobody ever promised me a job lined up as far as I recall. I got the ticket in and then I had to fend for myself.

So what do you want to get for your efforts?

What do you think immigration should do for you? Do you think they should give you a pass on the RO if you prove that you have applied for X jobs and didn't get any?

#1 I respectfully disagree with you, Leon, and I have one particular credential which sets me apart from many others you can talk down to:
I am a first generation immigrant myself , and so is my spouse. We are living with our family US. US is VERY COMPETITIVE country, not an easy place to make a living, by all means. Just ask anyone who has been here for over 20 years, even those who are very successful and were very lucky from the start, they will tell you what a struggle it was to make it in US.
I am not somebody who got it in silver plate, so I will not allow you (again, with all due respect) to tell me how I am to blame for not having a clue about immigration. If anything, I had real good clues about immigration experience LONG BEFORE we applied for Canadian FSW.

The fact is though that it is not just about me, it's about UNDENIABLE reality of there being an enormous over abundance of FSW immigrants as opposed to skilled jobs, which are extremely scarce (or else it wouldn't be such a mighty struggle to get any job other than flipping burgers or standing at a cashier in Walmart.

My question is: Are Canadian PR's the ones to blame for a fact that they can't get gainful employment in Canada and are forced to work at Walmart or flip burgers, even those who have higher education and qualified for immigration under Skilled Worker visa?


The obvious honest answer is NO, because it turns out that there is not any shortage of skilled workers , instead there appears to be over abundance of skilled workers competing against each other for each open spot out there.

You can't blame FSW for telling them that their skills are needed, in shortage and in demand, and then bringing so many of them that hundreds of them compete for each vacancy. Where is the shortage of workers that FSW is based on?

You COULD blame them if there was a program which said "We don't have shortage of workers like you, indeed we have thousands of people desperate to get a job in competition with you , and unlike you they have Canadian friends and Canadian experience, so don't count on anything than taxi driving or burger flipping when you come to Canada. But if it's ok with you, please feel free to apply".
Unfortunately, no one among FSW was told such a thing.

Most importantly, if Canada needs cheap labor to work at Walmart, why not bring people without skills and education, so they can get the same type of jobs that many undocumented immigrants do in US? This would be an excellent immigration program, immigrants would be happy (the ones who dreamed of working in Walmart or getting a welfare), and there would be no one to point fingers and strip of PR status for not staying in Canada to do those jobs.

#2. I am American, don't forget that. We don't have entitlement mentality. But we are straightforward, we speak up what we feel without reservations , and are proud of it. And we know when things are fair or when they are not.

All I am saying is that I find it unfair when I see such a powerful drive , as if there was a mission to get rid of hard core criminals, when it comes to enforcement of RO when you think of the reasons why many people can't stay in Canada after struggling so hard to get in there.

A lot of people go back to India, Pakistan, Taiwan, Brazil and stay there for YEARS before trying to return to Canada with expired PR card and in breach of RO. Many of them are not so lucky as to think of Canada as a "back up" plan, what do you think makes them return home?

You should stop being judgmental, think instead if it's really fair to blame PR's for not being able to move and stay in Canada without breach of RO.

 

[Msafiri]

......In the end there shall be leniency with PRs as this kind of situation is known to all Canadians, CIC and CBSA and in the end the economic activity will grow if you have population's presence, participation and productivity. The best part is that the PRs are aware that Canada is one of the best countries on the planet and want to be part of its growth eventually when they finally decide to make it home for good.

1. The number of PRs who land then remain in Canada despite hardship/ survival jobs/ under/unemployment is significantly higher than that of those PRs who land then leave typically after a short time usually within 6 months (as per numerous case law decisions by the IAD and the FC) because they can't find a job commensurate to their education/ experience/expectations etc.

2. As far back as the Immigration Act and well prior to the IRPA enactment in 2002 successive FSW PRs have tried to sue the Canadian government without any success for 'lying' (to include legitimate expectations argument) to them about their employability in Canada based on their education/ work experience and landed in Canada only to struggle with finding 'suitable' employment which mostly affects those in regulated professions. Actually there is no such promise in the Acts, the regs, operational manuals or even any of the application forms.

3. The IRPA exempts RO breach for PRs working abroad for a Canadian employer on a temporary secondment type full time hours assignment subject to the employer and employee both meeting the strict legislative requirements (effectively locks out small type incorporations typically service providers and mom and pop type set ups purposely created to avoid the RO). This gives the employee some flexibility but mandates a Canadian connection that is also in Canada best interests in relation to the integrity of the immigration system.

Primarily for reason 1 backed up by 2 and 3 the chances of the Feds/ CIC ever giving PRs a pass on the RO because you couldn't make it to live in Canada for a mere 730 days every rolling 5 year period due to 'employment' reasons are virtually nil. The other insurmountable barrier to this to is that however way you put it to the politicians, the courts and the general (read voting) public it screams 'Canada is an insurance' policy that I have in my back pocket in case 'a/b/c' etc happens but some other place is better for me now until then'. Get your citizenship and get rid of the RO for good!