Was married in the Philippines. Divorced in Canada.

[Kaibigan]

Since writing the above, a bit of quick research turned up this, regarding my own non-Filipino-attorney take on the interpretation of the relevant Philippine law. My interpretation has not been supported by Phils courts, as seen in this passage:

The apparent requirement that the divorce should be obtained by the foreign spouse abroad has since been clarified by the Supreme Court of the Philippines in Republic vs. Manalo (G.R. No. 221029, April 24, 2018), saying:

“ Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the word “obtained” should be interpreted to mean that the divorce proceeding must actually be initiated by the alien spouse, still, the Court , will not follow the letter of the statute when to do so would depart from the true intent of the legislature or would otherwise yield conclusions inconsistent with the general purpose of the act.

The foregoing may be found here:

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/8-steps-to-a-successful-judicial-recognition-of-divorce-in-the-philippines-new-and-updated-for-2021-58954

Again, none of this puts us any further ahead, since, in the case under discussion, neither party was a foreign spouse when divorced.

 

[armoured]

My argument is mostly along the lines of " Whether the IRCC should reach behind the apparently-valid proof of marriage documents is another issue."

Although with a little bit of PH civil law, eg , what happens where the marrying authority screws up on this admin aspect (of the foreign divorce) - does that make the marriage invalid? And if there's any doubt about validity or invalidity, does IRCC get to stick its nose in? Should they accept the apparently valid marriage docs 9r not, or in which circumstances do they have a right to deny sponsorship on basis that they think there is an argument there was a mistake?

I think there's a colorable argument to tell them to suck eggs.

 

[Xilikon]

Since writing the above, a bit of quick research turned up this, regarding my own non-Filipino-attorney take on the interpretation of the relevant Philippine law. My interpretation has not been supported by Phils courts, as seen in this passage:

The apparent requirement that the divorce should be obtained by the foreign spouse abroad has since been clarified by the Supreme Court of the Philippines in Republic vs. Manalo (G.R. No. 221029, April 24, 2018), saying:

“ Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the word “obtained” should be interpreted to mean that the divorce proceeding must actually be initiated by the alien spouse, still, the Court , will not follow the letter of the statute when to do so would depart from the true intent of the legislature or would otherwise yield conclusions inconsistent with the general purpose of the act.

The foregoing may be found here:

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/8-steps-to-a-successful-judicial-recognition-of-divorce-in-the-philippines-new-and-updated-for-2021-58954

Again, none of this puts us any further ahead, since, in the case under discussion, neither party was a foreign spouse when divorced.

From what I understand by reading this article, it seems the laws are applied to all Filipino citizens regardless of where in the world. This only address an exception when a Filipino is married to a foreigner and that foreigner applied for divorce in his home country while the Filipino cannot get divorced, which leads to a weird case of 1 being able to remarry while the Filipino couldn't. That exception allows the Philippines to recognize the divorce under precise circumstances.

Since the original post by @icaruz mentions they both are Filipino citizen at the time of divorce, it means they cannot divorce by Philippine laws even if they got it in Canada (it only mean it gets recognized there). This leads to the IRCC asking this and potentially forfeiting the spousal application.

 

[Xilikon]

A better choice is to try to do common law to circumvent this. I still worry that reapplying with a marriage done in another country would still be invalid because IRCC would have pieces of information about both of you so they will see there is a marriage.

This is the same issue for those who did online weddings during the pandemic and thought it would work with IRCC. I resisted the temptation to get married online and we decided to endure the long wait while the Philippines borders were still closed.

 

[Kaibigan]

...
Since the original post by @icaruz mentions they both are Filipino citizen at the time of divorce, it means they cannot divorce by Philippine laws even if they got it in Canada (it only mean it gets recognized there). This leads to the IRCC asking this and potentially forfeiting the spousal application.

Aye laddie, there's the concern. The IRCC asking and potentially denying the PR application. On that score, I am wholly in accord with @armoured's comment about "a colorable argument to tell them to suck eggs". Well said.

I think armoured and I see it the same that the IRCC should not be too quick to subject some of these things to microscopic scrutiny and to find fault, leading to application denial. After all, conjugal and common law applications are accepted, so it's not as though Canada is saying that sponsored spouses must be legally married spouses and we will demand scrupulous observance of the rules for a valid marriage. The concern should be to weed out relationships that lack bona fides. Here, I would say there could be no question of bona fides in the case of the OP.

 

[icaruz]

Thank you @Xilikon, my question is, why is getting married in other country would be invalid., like in Hong Kong they said that they accept foreign Divorce Cert., IRCC mentioned that the reason why my current marriage in the Philippines invalid is because there’s is no indication that my previous marriage was dissolved so they are asking me to provide an evidence that my previous marriage was dissolved or annulled in the Philippines…so If I get married in other country which recognizes my divorce decree would it be a valid marriage since they recognize my divorce cert?. And since IRCC declared that my marriage was not valid in their eyes does it mean that there’s no marriage happened at all? Sorry I needed to clarify this because im kinda running out of options., thank you guys for responding.

 

[Kaibigan]

A better choice is to try to do common law to circumvent this. I still worry that reapplying with a marriage done in another country would still be invalid because IRCC would have pieces of information about both of you so they will see there is a marriage.

This is the same issue for those who did online weddings during the pandemic and thought it would work with IRCC. I resisted the temptation to get married online and we decided to endure the long wait while the Philippines borders were still closed.

Well, sure, common law would be a way, assuming the OP can stay in the Phils with his wife for a year, then start a year-or-so long process after that year has passed.

Is it of concern that the IRCC will "see there is a marriage"? Indeed, if the IRCC now denies the existing application, it is because of its view that the OP remains married to his first wife, at least under Philippines law. I have read on this board many times was that one reason why the IRCC started allowing conjugal applications was because of the difficulty posed by countries like the Philippines where getting a divorce is not possible and an annulment is a long, expensive and uncertain path.

I am not saying you are wrong, but, for the OP's sake, I'll hope that you are. As the OP has pointed out above, Hong Kong will accept that he is divorced and the marriage will be legal in Hong Kong. The IRCC says it will recognize as valid marriages that are valid where performed. I think the OP will fall into that category.

 

[Xilikon]

Thank you @Xilikon, my question is, why is getting married in other country would be invalid., like in Hong Kong they said that they accept foreign Divorce Cert., IRCC mentioned that the reason why my current marriage in the Philippines invalid is because there’s is no indication that my previous marriage was dissolved so they are asking me to provide an evidence that my previous marriage was dissolved or annulled in the Philippines…so If I get married in other country which recognizes my divorce decree would it be a valid marriage since they recognize my divorce cert?. And since IRCC declared that my marriage was not valid in their eyes does it mean that there’s no marriage happened at all? Sorry I needed to clarify this because im kinda running out of options., thank you guys for responding.

Don't take me as authority on the manner and I was just expressing some concerns about how IRCC would see the whole thing. My suggestion of common law is the "cleanest" way to resolve those issues but marrying in Hong Kong could work too (if they do the due diligence and recognize the Canadian divorce, it should be fine).

The application will also ask about previous marriages so you would have to report it anyway.

Let's just see some facts :

-IRCC doubts marriage is valid in the Philippines.
-If getting married in Hong Kong is valid if they do vetting before granting a marriage licence.
-If IRCC would accept the new marriage certificate from Hong Kong and ignore the fact the marriage in the Philippines isn't valid.

Then it could work but I could see potential new issues. Even a lawyer needs to be careful and do proper research about this and see at what point IRCC can determine the validity, especially if PSA provided an official marriage certificate.

 

[Xilikon]

It is similar to issues those who are married online during the pandemic thinking it would be valid but in the end, Canada doesn't recognize those as valid. The only way is to either apply common law or divorce and remarry properly.

 

[Kaibigan]

It is similar to issues those who are married online during the pandemic thinking it would be valid but in the end, Canada doesn't recognize those as valid. The only way is to either apply common law or divorce and remarry properly.

However, while the IRCC says it will accept as valid marriages that are valid where performed, they did post a caution against online marriages. I no longer recall the exact wording, they did not actually use the term "online", but spoke of "proxy" marriages and marriages where one or both parties were not present at the same time. Like you, my wife and I considered the online marriage idea while the Phils was on lockdown for 2 years, but we too ruled it out as it was pretty clear it would not be accepted. I think a more "regular" form of marriage, performed in a place like Hong Kong, will much more likely pass muster, while an online marriage will not.

The idea of "divorce and remarry properly" sounds good on the surface, but it raises issues. To get a divorce, there has to be a legal marriage to begin with. Here, the IRCC is saying there is no legal marriage, except the first one. The Phils says the OP is still married to first wife. So what does he do? Seek a second divorce in Canada from first wife, now that he is a citizen of Canada? Will Canadian courts allow 2 bites at the apple? If he clears that hurdle, then he would have to apply for recognition of that divorce in the Phils, to get that first marriage "off the books". What next? Try to marry second wife again in the Phils? That marriage is already recorded with the PSA. So, maybe try to fix that by divorcing second wife in Canada, then applying for recognition of that divorce, then seeking Cenomar and marry second wife again? Getting wearying.

 

[armoured]

Aye laddie, there's the concern. The IRCC asking and potentially denying the PR application. On that score, I am wholly in accord with @armoured's comment about "a colorable argument to tell them to suck eggs". Well said.

I think armoured and I see it the same that the IRCC should not be too quick to subject some of these things to microscopic scrutiny and to find fault,

I don't think it's even a question of the bona fides of the applicants, but rather that - under Canadian law - IRCC absolutely MUST recognize that the divorce is valid (done in Canada after all). And that if so, it cannot / should not take the position that a subsequent marriage in the PH is invalid because ... not divorced. If the marriage cert appears valid, short of outright evidence it was fraudulent etc., they should be accepting it as a valid cert in this context.

We do not subject marriage certs from other countries generally to this scrutiny - we usually ask if they can show that any previous marriages were dissolved (annulled or divorced) and that the current marriage cert seems valid.

Look at what Canada provides to Canadians getting married in other jurisdictions - no proof whatsoever you are NOT still married, but only a piece of paper that says "so-and-so appeared before me and swore there are no impediments to his marriage."

They might THINK there is a reason under PH law to say a marriage could be valid, but without some documented reason (obvoius fraud, etc), they have no place to question the legal docs provided.

 

[icaruz]

Thank you guys for keeping on responding., right now I don’t have any words to say but I keep reading your replies and for that I’m gaining some insight/info @Kaibigan @armoured @Xilikon ., right now I’m thinking on what should I do next because I only have like 4 days left to response to IRCC., I also asked my wife to go seek advice or help with the lawyer who advised us the requirements that we needed to get married and ask for his testimony regarding to our marriage., the immigration officer said that we need to satisfy the officer that we meet the requirements., but without the said documentation I don’t know if my letter or just in my own words would satisfy the officer..

 

[icaruz]

Don't take me as authority on the manner and I was just expressing some concerns about how IRCC would see the whole thing. My suggestion of common law is the "cleanest" way to resolve those issues but marrying in Hong Kong could work too (if they do the due diligence and recognize the Canadian divorce, it should be fine).

The application will also ask about previous marriages so you would have to report it anyway.

Let's just see some facts :

-IRCC doubts marriage is valid in the Philippines.
-If getting married in Hong Kong is valid if they do vetting before granting a marriage licence.
-If IRCC would accept the new marriage certificate from Hong Kong and ignore the fact the marriage in the Philippines isn't valid.

Then it could work but I could see potential new issues. Even a lawyer needs to be careful and do proper research about this and see at what point IRCC can determine the validity, especially if PSA provided an official marriage certificate.

@Xilikon I have read some articles here that almost have the same case like mine the only difference is that I got married again in the Philippines., this other case that I mentioned I heard that they already have a passport request., so if I got married in Hong Kong and re submit my application and IRCC got meticulously got into my application again and they look into my marriage what’s the difference between and the others who got married in Hong Kong…who are the same like me Divorced in Canada but still Married in Philippines…

 

[Xilikon]

It could be possible but before we go that way, try to challenge IRCC to provide their reasoning if PSA considers the current marriage valid by providing the official marriage certificate.

 

[Reminder25]

I read that Philippines will recognized your divorce if you are naturalized Canadian citizen because your status is a foreigner . Very funny I need to divorce my ex wife Fipino again . We are divorced when we are permanent residents. Loopholes of law.