Significant reduction in immigrants to Canada if Trump win?

[keesio]

I've heard that argument from Sanders supporters before - that he would have been more successful than Clinton in a general election. I disagree. He would have alienated the moderates that are going in hard for Clinton.

 

[Natan]

If, as is moat likely to occur, Hillary wins, it might stop Trump, but it wont start Trumpism. In fact, it would probably only get worse. There was a candidate for President who could have possibly built a broad progressive coalition that neutralized right-wing populism, but the Democratic Party did him in. They have nobody to blame but themselves if she somehow loses--either next week or in four years.

The vast majority of Americans do not know the definitions of "socialism" and "communism"; but they firmly believe they are synonymous and evil. For this reason alone, Bernie Sanders didn't stand any chance in a general election. Today's Americans will not elect a socialist President.

Most Americans would be astonished to learn that there has never been a more communist country than the United States of America, if communism is defined as the workers owning the means of production. Through their 401(k)s, IRAs, and various retirement plans, the American worker overwhelmingly owns more of the means of production than workers have ever owned anywhere else at any other time. Unfortunately, workers own "preferred" shares in their retirement plans instead of "common" shares. ("Preferred" shares grant the owner no voting rights, and thus no actual control of the company; while "common" shares grant voting rights.)

 

[links18]

I've heard that argument from Sanders supporters before - that he would have been more successful than Clinton in a general election. I disagree. He would have alienated the moderates that are going in hard for Clinton.

And he could have won many of the angry white working class voting for Trump. Not all of them, but maybe enough to put together a winning coalition with his millennial base. Now, Hillary will win, pursue the same old policies and people will just get more angry. In four years, the next Trump might not have all the baggage.

 

[marcher]

The vast majority of Americans do not know the definitions of "socialism" and "communism"; but they firmly believe they are synonymous and evil. For this reason alone, Bernie Sanders didn't stand any chance in a general election. Today's Americans will not elect a socialist President.

Most Americans would be astonished to learn that there has never been a more communist country than the United States of America, if communism is defined as the workers owning the means of production. Through their 401(k)s, IRAs, and various retirement plans, the American worker overwhelmingly owns more of the means of production than workers have ever owned anywhere else at any other time. Unfortunately, workers own "preferred" shares in their retirement plans instead of "common" shares. ("Preferred" shares grant the owner no voting rights, and thus no actual control of the company; while "common" shares grant voting rights.)

What qualifies you to judge the 'vast majority' of Americans? You are generalizing and being unfair to people you do not know.

 

[links18]

Why do you suppose this populist style politics has yet to emerge full force in Canada?

 

[Natan]

What qualifies you to judge the 'vast majority' of Americans? You are generalizing and being unfair to people you do not know.

Polls have shown that over 50% of likely voters in the U.S. think Obama is a socialist (which shows that at least that many Americans do not know what a socialist is). Ask your average American (in a store, on the street, at the gas station, in the bank) what's the difference between communism and socialism, and you'll quickly discover that they don't actually know what either term means, much less the difference between them. But most will insist that "communism" and "socialism" is, at best, Unamerican, at worse, evil and ungodly.

I may be generalizing, but polls and political developments support my generalization. It is not unfair to call out ignorance where it actually exists. It is not a generalization to point out what is common knowledge, south of the border, that today's Americans will not elect a socialist President -- Bernie Sanders is a self declared "social democrat" (another term few American voters could define). Perhaps I know Americans far better than you realize.

 

[marcher]

Polls have shown that over 50% of likely voters in the U.S. think Obama is a socialist (which shows that at least that many Americans do not know what a socialist is). Ask your average American (in a store, on the street, at the gas station, in the bank) what's the difference between communism and socialism, and you'll quickly discover that they don't actually know what either term means, much less the difference between them. But most will insist that "communism" and "socialism" is, at best, Unamerican, at worse, evil and ungodly.

I may be generalizing, but polls and political developments support my generalization. It is not unfair to call out ignorance where it actually exists. It is not a generalization to point out what is common knowledge, south of the border, that today's Americans will not elect a socialist President -- Bernie Sanders is a self declared "social democrat" (another term few American voters could define). Perhaps I know Americans far better than you realize.

It seems everyone likes to believe he or she knows more about Americans than others, and prove that by generalizing and labeling them as ignorant of some type. I am not saying you are wrong nor right, but when you classify them in that manner, you are being unfair by painting the majority of a population based on actions of a few. Moreover, if you compare them to other populations, say Canadian, do you think average people elsewhere know more about communism and socialism? People have different interests and are knowledgeable in different fields. In the course of my life, I met some very intelligent Americans, and stupid ones. That does not give them the right to make assumptions on the rest of the population.

 

[Naheulbeuck]

It seems everyone likes to believe he or she knows more about Americans than others, and prove that by generalizing and labeling them as ignorant of some type. I am not saying you are wrong nor right, but when you classify them in that manner, you are being unfair by painting the majority of a population based on actions of a few. Moreover, if you compare them to other populations, say Canadian, do you think average people elsewhere know more about communism and socialism? People have different interests and are knowledgeable in different fields. In the course of my life, I met some very intelligent Americans, and stupid ones. That does not give them the right to make assumptions on the rest of the population.

Nobody said that.

But instead of reading and doing a quick research you get offended...

 

[marcher]

Nobody said that.

But instead of reading and doing a quick research you get offended...

I am not offended at all, just expressing my opinion which happens to differ from the one suggested. I heard the same opinion many times, and somehow people use it as a fact to describe Americans, but in reality it is not. You could apply such stereotypical attributes to any population; and be wrong in each case. We cannot call people ignorant because some of them may lack interest in certain topics. If you do not care nor know anything about hockey, does that mean I can say you are ignorant? For some hockey is more important than politics, I do not blame them

 

[Naheulbeuck]

I am not offended at all...

He has not said that Americans are ignorant or stupid, but he correctly mentioned that the majority of Americans do not know what socialism means. Not only is he right about Obama but recent polls showed that less than 30% of Americans can get anywhere close to a very basic definition of socialism trying to define the word using their own terms...Yet 65% of Americans view it as a negative word. That doesn't make Americans ignorant, but that absolutely gives him the right to say that the vast majority of Americans do not understand what socialism is and therefore it clearly shows that the dislike Americans have for Socialism is not based on reason but more of propaganda and prejudice.

Now there is no reason for being offended or thinking that people who say that think Americans are ignorant, uneducated people, capitalism or globalization today are often thrown off in many places in the exact same way, as those words are being used by politics as tools to redirect blame. Further, it is neither a topic that should be discussed on this forum nor a topic i will enjoy discussing, especially if someone gets offended by it.

Therefore i will leave the conversation at that and remind people that i am ignorant about plenty of things but that doesn't mean i am ignorant in general...just about those particular topics and i can either take the time to learn about those and educate myself on those topics or find them not interesting to me (or too challenging/time consuming) and i will reserve any judgement on those topics due to my lack of knowledge on those particular topics.

 

[Natan]

He has not said that Americans are ignorant or stupid, but he correctly mentioned that the majority of Americans do not know what socialism means. Not only is he right about Obama but recent polls showed that less than 30% of Americans can get anywhere close to a very basic definition of socialism trying to define the word using their own terms...Yet 65% of Americans view it as a negative word. That doesn't make Americans ignorant, but that absolutely gives him the right to say that the vast majority of Americans do not understand what socialism is and therefore it clearly shows that the dislike Americans have for Socialism is not based on reason but more of propaganda and prejudice.

I couldn't have said it any better. Thank you.

 

[keesio]

It is not the American people's lack of proper understanding what a "democratic socialist" is that will sink his chances. Just looking at his actual policies and prior actions/statements are enough.

As for right-wingers calling Obama a socialist/communist, it is simply to paint him with an extreme label to get people riled up against him. But yes, he is no more a commie than George W Bush was a dictator, as so many left-wingers liked to call him. The hate for him was so much that they wanted to paint him as something he is really not - just like Obama. It's politics.

 

[canadasucks]

CIC website just crashed tonight as too many Americans are trying to access it!

 

[cempjwi]

You mean he isn't an existential threat to civilization itself? Or a dangerous Russian puppet?

Don't believe everything you hear or read unless it come from Wikileaks... one thing is for certain proven during this American election... it came to show that ANYONE can be president fooling the most uneducated of voters. Just look at the voting stats. Only urban centers with go Democrats as any other progressive initiative.

 

[links18]

Don't believe everything you hear or read unless it come from Wikileaks... one thing is for certain proven during this American election... it came to show that ANYONE can be president fooling the most uneducated of voters. Just look at the voting stats. Only urban centers with go Democrats as any other progressive initiative.

I am scared for the repercussions for Canada.