Reasons for Rejection

[hulahoop]

At the end of the day the processing officers are also held accountable for their decisions and I don't see any reason why they would break the rules. It's not their best interest to give out PR's, so I won't count too much on their goodness.

But I think one of those rules is that they're allowed to use their own judgement to some degree...

 

[Dynonobel]

At the end of the day the processing officers are also held accountable for their decisions and I don't see any reason why they would break the rules. It's not their best interest to give out PR's, so I won't count too much on their goodness.

Take it for what it is worth.

Also, no one said anything about breaking the rules. I worked for the Province of British Columbia for 3 years and although it is not a division of the federal government it operates in many of the same ways. I also have worked under a number of Federal government contracts in the private sector and liaised weekly with Federal employees (although never with CIC). I can tell you from personal experience that government officials in many sectors have a lot of leeway to make decisions and can interpret policy in wildly different ways without actually going against policy (or breaking the rules as you put it). I don't see CIC as being any different. Simply put, it can't hurt to be courteous and professional.

 

[dragon17Sky]

Take it for what it is worth.

Also, no one said anything about breaking the rules. I worked for the Province of British Columbia for 3 years and although it is not a division of the federal government it operates in many of the same ways. I also have worked under a number of Federal government contracts in the private sector and liaised weekly with Federal employees (although never with CIC). I can tell you from personal experience that government officials in many sectors have a lot of leeway to make decisions and can interpret policy in wildly different ways without actually going against policy (or breaking the rules as you put it). I don't see CIC as being any different. Simply put, it can't hurt to be courteous and professional.

very well said... +1 to you

 

[kateg]

At the end of the day the processing officers are also held accountable for their decisions and I don't see any reason why they would break the rules. It's not their best interest to give out PR's, so I won't count too much on their goodness.

It's not about breaking the rules. It's about discretion.

When I came to Canada, I applied for a study permit at the border. My wife applied for a work permit. We got both of ours without problems. Several people in front of us did not. One man had a work permit, but his wife was denied a OWP.

The job of immigration officials is to apply the rules. They are not, however, obligated to give anything to anyone. If they have concerns about an applicant, and they can support those concerns, they are free to deny.

With my wife and I, we never had to show most of the paperwork we had. For proof of funds, I had a simple letter (no bank statements). Family history, proof of background check, etc. - the official didn't see them, and didn't want to.

One of the concerns is whether you will leave at the end of the study period. I've seen people (and a number of people on this forum have experienced) denials due to those concerns. When I came, I admitted that I had no home to return to, no family ties, and that I had every intention of working towards permanent residency. The agent liked me, and there wasn't a problem.

Be nice and polite. It's worth it.

 

[colorblind]

I don't understand in what way we can or can't be polite when uploading docs to the express entry. When my app was rejected due to a missing original of the PCC, I've sent an email, where I nicely asked to take the doc in consideration. Dunno if I could or couldn't be more hearts and flowers. but the officers are supposed to do their job unbiased.
The whole procedure has cracks and holes, and as I said at the beginning of it all, they're learning with us.

They keep changing ppl's statuses with no sense.

@Hulahoop - my bckgchck changed just a few days after I submitted the app. For some of them, like you, it changed 4 months after.

I wouldn't worry too much. You have been asked additional docs, and saw movement. The officer doesn't not like you. lol.


What makes me sick is the whole thing. I hate the thing they want all my transactions in the last 6 months.. if it's all under their discretion, if I buy in a store they don't like, they might delay my app and reject it for reasons others are not?

It's all a big BS!!!!!!!!

I'm working for the provincial Gov, and we also have some discretion on our work and decisions, but there still are basic rules that apply for all. You can't go on hand with some, and others just refuse. and the worst thing of all is that no one knows anything as it's all new. We have no one to contact to get some info. We're left on their mercy.

If the CIC site says clearly that incomplete applications will be returned, then it applies to everyone.

 

[Dynonobel]

I don't understand in what way we can or can't be polite when uploading docs to the express entry. When my app was rejected due to a missing original of the PCC, I've sent an email, where I nicely asked to take the doc in consideration. Dunno if I could or couldn't be more hearts and flowers. but the officers are supposed to do their job unbiased.
The whole procedure has cracks and holes, and as I said at the beginning of it all, they're learning with us.

They keep changing ppl's statuses with no sense.

@ Hulahoop - my bckgchck changed just a few days after I submitted the app. For some of them, like you, it changed 4 months after.

I wouldn't worry too much. You have been asked additional docs, and saw movement. The officer doesn't not like you. lol.


What makes me sick is the whole thing. I hate the thing they want all my transactions in the last 6 months.. if it's all under their discretion, if I buy in a store they don't like, they might delay my app and reject it for reasons others are not?

It's all a big BS!!!!!!!!

I'm working for the provincial Gov, and we also have some discretion on our work and decisions, but there still are basic rules that apply for all. You can't go on hand with some, and others just refuse. and the worst thing of all is that no one knows anything as it's all new. We have no one to contact to get some info. We're left on their mercy.

If the CIC site says clearly that incomplete applications will be returned, then it applies to everyone.

I want to make it VERY CLEAR...no one is saying that you WILL get special treatment for being polite. I think you are reading far too much into what myself and others like Kateg are saying. And believe me, I understand your frustration and how easy it can be to overthink it. I'm also sorry to hear that your application was rejected.

The point I was trying to make is that it CAN be the difference when it comes down to a small decision that the CIC agent has to make. In a process where you have little to no control, by being courteous you are influencing the very small part of the process that you have some sort of control over.

Personally, I wrote six letters of explanation for my wife's application. They were all required for various reasons and none of them we're uploaded in the "Optional Documents" section. I could have wrote them extremely succinct and short, but I chose to add in a couple of extra lines to remind the agent reading them that my wife is a human being, with a child, and a career, and not just another statistic. Will it help? Who knows? probably won't make any difference. But with it being the small piece of the application that we actually had control over, I can walk away feeling like I gave it my best shot.

I also want to point out that I was able to do this in a very professional way, I don't want someone to get the wrong idea and write a letter that comes off as begging.

Please don't misconstrue my words to mean "it's all under their discretion."

 

[sam_172452]

I want to make it VERY CLEAR...no one is saying that you WILL get special treatment for being polite. I think you are reading far too much into what myself and others like Kateg are saying. And believe me, I understand your frustration and how easy it can be to overthink it. I'm also sorry to hear that your application was rejected.

The point I was trying to make is that it CAN be the difference when it comes down to a small decision that the CIC agent has to make. In a process where you have little to no control, by being courteous you are influencing the very small part of the process that you have some sort of control over.

Personally, I wrote six letters of explanation for my wife's application. They were all required for various reasons and none of them we're uploaded in the "Optional Documents" section. I could have wrote them extremely succinct and short, but I chose to add in a couple of extra lines to remind the agent reading them that my wife is a human being, with a child, and a career, and not just another statistic. Will it help? Who knows? probably won't make any difference. But with it being the small piece of the application that we actually had control over, I can walk away feeling like I gave it my best shot.

I also want to point out that I was able to do this in a very professional way, I don't want someone to get the wrong idea and write a letter that comes off as begging.

Please don't misconstrue my words to mean "it's all under their discretion."

Very well said

 

[colorblind]

I want to make it VERY CLEAR...no one is saying that you WILL get special treatment for being polite. I think you are reading far too much into what myself and others like Kateg are saying. And believe me, I understand your frustration and how easy it can be to overthink it. I'm also sorry to hear that your application was rejected.

The point I was trying to make is that it CAN be the difference when it comes down to a small decision that the CIC agent has to make. In a process where you have little to no control, by being courteous you are influencing the very small part of the process that you have some sort of control over.

Personally, I wrote six letters of explanation for my wife's application. They were all required for various reasons and none of them we're uploaded in the "Optional Documents" section. I could have wrote them extremely succinct and short, but I chose to add in a couple of extra lines to remind the agent reading them that my wife is a human being, with a child, and a career, and not just another statistic. Will it help? Who knows? probably won't make any difference. But with it being the small piece of the application that we actually had control over, I can walk away feeling like I gave it my best shot.

I also want to point out that I was able to do this in a very professional way, I don't want someone to get the wrong idea and write a letter that comes off as begging.

Please don't misconstrue my words to mean "it's all under their discretion."

Believe me, you don't understand my frustration. And the fact that you have uploaded some letters that no one asked you to, and you and the others are saying that if we are not polite, we might get treated differently is a BIG BS!!!

If you remember how to upload files and submit the application, there is room for only the docents they request and explanation letter. If you wrote 6 'professional' letters, that's your problem. We're not required to. And if any of the officwrs there think like you, then I'm better off Canada. As this is all BS.

 

[sam_172452]

Colorblind,

I agree with you. We should all be judged fairly based on what we have been asked to upload and input. It is point based system to ensure fairness. Being polite should be a given since it should be expected that we all communicate with CIC or any other agency in a professional manner.

 

[Anya654]

I don't understand in what way we can or can't be polite when uploading docs to the express entry. When my app was rejected due to a missing original of the PCC, I've sent an email, where I nicely asked to take the doc in consideration. Dunno if I could or couldn't be more hearts and flowers. but the officers are supposed to do their job unbiased.
The whole procedure has cracks and holes, and as I said at the beginning of it all, they're learning with us.

They keep changing ppl's statuses with no sense.

@ Hulahoop - my bckgchck changed just a few days after I submitted the app. For some of them, like you, it changed 4 months after.

I wouldn't worry too much. You have been asked additional docs, and saw movement. The officer doesn't not like you. lol.


What makes me sick is the whole thing. I hate the thing they want all my transactions in the last 6 months.. if it's all under their discretion, if I buy in a store they don't like, they might delay my app and reject it for reasons others are not?

It's all a big BS!!!!!!!!

I'm working for the provincial Gov, and we also have some discretion on our work and decisions, but there still are basic rules that apply for all. You can't go on hand with some, and others just refuse. and the worst thing of all is that no one knows anything as it's all new. We have no one to contact to get some info. We're left on their mercy.

If the CIC site says clearly that incomplete applications will be returned, then it applies to everyone.

Colorblind no one is implying that you were rude and that was why your application was refused or not reopened . IMO I believe CIC was right in their decision because the rules explicitly state that you must submit your original PCC with the translated version so no matter how v v polite you would've been I believe the decision would have been the same. This has been the rule since FSW 2014 and before so I don't believe CIC could have used their discretion in matters such as this as they always need to see original PCC's. The same goes for not submitting degree certificate with ECA.

Now Dynobel and Sam have a point. For example my sister and someone else applied for a student visa last year with practically the same docs. However the only difference was that my sister wrote that she grew up poor and always believed education would get her far in life etc in her explanation letter. Guess who got d visa? My sister. So the fact is that according to the rules, CIC can use their discretion to grant visas as long as the error isn't a major part of d requirements eg missing documentation. Hope I've been able to explain the situation better. I'm very sorry for your decision outcome but just remember that everything happens for a reason .

 

[sam_172452]

Colorblind no one is implying that you were rude and that was why your application was refused or not reopened . IMO I believe CIC was right in their decision because the rules explicitly state that you must submit your original PCC with the translated version so no matter how v v polite you would've been I believe the decision would have been the same. This has been the rule since FSW 2014 and before so I don't believe CIC could have used their discretion in matters such as this as they always need to see original PCC's. The same goes for not submitting degree certificate with ECA.

Now Dynobel and Sam have a point. For example my sister and someone else applied for a student visa last year with practically the same docs. However the only difference was that my sister wrote that she grew up poor and always believed education would get her far in life etc in her explanation letter. Guess who got d visa? My sister. So the fact is that according to the rules, CIC can use their discretion to grant visas as long as the error isn't a major part of d requirements eg missing documentation. Hope I've been able to explain the situation better. I'm very sorry for your decision outcome but just remember that everything happens for a reason .

If that is the case, do you not think that CIC should make letters as a requirement rather than optional?

 

[colorblind]

Colorblind no one is implying that you were rude and that was why your application was refused or not reopened . IMO I believe CIC was right in their decision because the rules explicitly state that you must submit your original PCC with the translated version so no matter how v v polite you would've been I believe the decision would have been the same. This has been the rule since FSW 2014 and before so I don't believe CIC could have used their discretion in matters such as this as they always need to see original PCC's. The same goes for not submitting degree certificate with ECA.

Now Dynobel and Sam have a point. For example my sister and someone else applied for a student visa last year with practically the same docs. However the only difference was that my sister wrote that she grew up poor and always believed education would get her far in life etc in her explanation letter. Guess who got d visa? My sister. So the fact is that according to the rules, CIC can use their discretion to grant visas as long as the error isn't a major part of d requirements eg missing documentation. Hope I've been able to explain the situation better. I'm very sorry for your decision outcome but just remember that everything happens for a reason .

I can't believe what you wrote. And if the reason that other person got rejected because she/he didn't write a suck up letter to the VO, then the immigration system here is very wrong.

In none of my posts I wrote that CIC made the wrong decision in rejecting my app due to incompleteness. What I'm saying is that the same rules apply to all. it is a point based system. not pity.

There is the refugee program for pity. And in EE we're all the same. If we are asked to upload documents, we have to do it properly. And here was my mistake. But I can't believe that you are saying that other person didn't get the visa because she didn't write an explanation letter. You don't know what they wrote, and you don't know what they submitted. There is always the fact that people like to adjust their stories according to what suits them.

This thread went in a wrong direction.

No one here has a/had a perfect life back home, and that's why we are trying to become permanent residents of Canada. And it does not make a difference if you write letters to them saying that. At least it shouldn't.

 

[Anya654]

I can't believe what you wrote. And if the reason that other person got rejected because she/he didn't write a suck up letter to the VO, then the immigration system here is very wrong.

In none of my posts I wrote that CIC made the wrong decision in rejecting my app due to incompleteness. What I'm saying is that the same rules apply to all. it is a point based system. not pity.

There is the refugee program for pity. And in EE we're all the same. If we are asked to upload documents, we have to do it properly. And here was my mistake. But I can't believe that you are saying that other person didn't get the visa because she didn't write an explanation letter. You don't know what they wrote, and you don't know what they submitted. There is always the fact that people like to adjust their stories according to what suits them.

This thread went in a wrong direction.

No one here has a/had a perfect life back home, and that's why we are trying to become permanent residents of Canada. And it does not make a difference if you write letters to them saying that. At least it shouldn't.

Unfortunately that's the way the world is. Some people are moved by emotions some people aren't . The key point is that as long as CIC agents have been told to use their discretion they'll basically do just that. That's why some people's apps were cancelled because of no passport upload while some were asked to provide the required documentation. It's unfair but that's their system.

 

[AshesNdust]

I can't believe what you wrote. And if the reason that other person got rejected because she/he didn't write a suck up letter to the VO, then the immigration system here is very wrong.

In none of my posts I wrote that CIC made the wrong decision in rejecting my app due to incompleteness. What I'm saying is that the same rules apply to all. it is a point based system. not pity.

There is the refugee program for pity. And in EE we're all the same. If we are asked to upload documents, we have to do it properly. And here was my mistake. But I can't believe that you are saying that other person didn't get the visa because she didn't write an explanation letter. You don't know what they wrote, and you don't know what they submitted. There is always the fact that people like to adjust their stories according to what suits them.

This thread went in a wrong direction.

No one here has a/had a perfect life back home, and that's why we are trying to become permanent residents of Canada. And it does not make a difference if you write letters to them saying that. At least it shouldn't.

I think what people are trying to say, is that in a situation with an application that allows for some leeway on the part of an agent, then being polite will help. For example, if a person submits a letter of employment from a past employer that is not exactly as it is supposed to be listed. Now at this point the agent can decide to reject it out right, accept it if they feel it is the best an applicant can get, or do some extra work to verify it.
If a person doesn't have a letter of explanation explaining why the letter isn't perfect, it might just get rejected. If they include a letter that is not polite, saying some like they think this requirement is too difficult or doesn't make sense, they might get rejected as well.
However, if a person, apologizes for not getting the letter exactly how it was asked for, explains that the former place of employment refused to follow the CIC instructions, and states that they can attempt to get more verification if needed, the agent might just decide that the letter is acceptable, they may call the former employer to verify, or just request some more documents.
That's the kind of situation that might be when an agent has some discretion and where a polite letter would be beneficial. I don't think anyone believes that writing a polite letter will allow an agent to pass an application that is completely missing information or outright violates the rules.

 

[colorblind]

I think what people are trying to say, is that in a situation with an application that allows for some leeway on the part of an agent, then being polite will help. For example, if a person submits a letter of employment from a past employer that is not exactly as it is supposed to be listed. Now at this point the agent can decide to reject it out right, accept it if they feel it is the best an applicant can get, or do some extra work to verify it.
If a person doesn't have a letter of explanation explaining why the letter isn't perfect, it might just get rejected. If they include a letter that is not polite, saying some like they think this requirement is too difficult or doesn't make sense, they might get rejected as well.
However, if a person, apologizes for not getting the letter exactly how it was asked for, explains that the former place of employment refused to follow the CIC instructions, and states that they can attempt to get more verification if needed, the agent might just decide that the letter is acceptable, they may call the former employer to verify, or just request some more documents.
That's the kind of situation that might be when an agent has some discretion and where a polite letter would be beneficial. I don't think anyone believes that writing a polite letter will allow an agent to pass an application that is completely missing information or outright violates the rules.

I agree with what you said. but that is not what Anya654 said.