Post Graduate Work Permit and EE

[Nick~Nick]

Please check this all comments...from diff diff sections...

Now the question is how employers will react to this change. What will happen to those employes who are already working on PGWP. Most of the big and medium sized companies in Canada are staying away from this hassel even though there will be no fee for EE oriented LMIA but still there would be paper work involved which companies dont like to do.

You also need to make sue your pay is higher than the medium wage. Otherwise your employer will receive a negative opinion

Hello Guys

I am confused with all this... We all students start work from 10.25 slowly to supervisor/Managers, my question is whether when we will count our experience over all or only for manager.supervisor...
please help

http://www.esdc.gc.ca/eng/jobs/foreign_workers/higher_skilled/academics//index.shtml

I believe this is for TFW program. Read in context. Not too familiar with detail LMIA/LMO process so correct if I'm wrong.

From ESDC
The prevailing wage rate is identified as the median hourly wage (or annual salary as published on Job Bank) or higher for the particular occupation and work location. Employers must also ensure that they include the wage being paid for the position, as part of their advertisement of the available position.
Employers offering a wage that is below the prevailing wage rate will be considered as not meeting the labour market factor for the assessment of wages and therefore, will be issued a negative LMIA.

If its for TFW that all right..
Otherwise what will be the diff between TFW and PGWP..student invest there time and money to study in Canada and going through same process as TFW..?? Why ??

 

[Phil89]

Please check this all comments...from diff diff sections...


If its for TFW that all right..
Otherwise what will be the diff between TFW and PGWP..student invest there time and money to study in Canada and going through same process as TFW..?? Why ??

This is a new government policy. You just have to accept it and adjust to it.

 

[Nick~Nick]

This is a new government policy. You just have to accept it and adjust to it.

I understand that..but then how about medium wage..? For student who just grad and in first yr of PGWP ?

 

[kvn]

Read my post above... With one year work experience and English, we will be able to get into the CEC pool and then they will pick applicants with the highest scores..And if you get LMIA, then it adds 600 points to your score and an immediate invitation to apply for PR.

Yes Phil, I understood what you said and you have already assumed that to qualify for 600 points, a LMIA is needed. but then again nowhere did it specifically mention that PGWP holders needs LMIA as well. If you go through their FAQS, they used the term "in most cases". again there's nothing mentioned what are the exception cases.

19. Will an employer need an Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA) to hire an Express Entry candidate?

In most cases, employers will need an LMIA from ESDC. An employer may use an existing LMIA to hire their temporary foreign worker permanently.

source: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/notices/2014-12-01.asp#19

I very well realize that what you mentioned may come true and am already evaluating my options based on that assumption coming true. and until CIC can clarify this, I'll still wait for the answer.

 

[marcus66502]

Yes Phil, I understood what you said and you have already assumed that to qualify for 600 points, a LMIA is needed. but then again nowhere did it specifically mention that PGWP holders needs LMIA as well. If you go through their FAQS, they used the term "in most cases". again there's nothing mentioned what are the exception cases.

I very well realize that what you mentioned may come true and am already evaluating my options based on that assumption coming true. and until CIC can clarify this, I'll still wait for the answer.

No further clarification CIC is needed. The Ministerial instructions that just came out give you all the information you need. There is only one kind of "arranged job offer" that gives you the 600 points and it is as defined in the Ministerial instructions. Part of that definition is that an officer of Employment and Skills Development Canada must evaluate the job offer and make a positive Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA). This applies to everyone, whether new grads on PGWP or monkeys in Timbuktu.

You say that nowhere does it say you need LMIA in the FAQ page for Express Entry. Nowhere does it HAVE TO say. It's explicit in the Ministerial Instructions. So if you're waiting for some new CIC web page to tell you what you want to hear (i.e. that you won't need LMIA and that the door hasn't been shut in your face) you'll be waiting till your hair turns gray.

You can still continue to believe what you want but if you keep thinking you're good to apply with just PGWP without LMIA then, like phil above said, you'll be in for a rude surprise when you enter the pool and never hear back from CIC.

 

[MonanikaBR]

Now the question is how employers will react to this change. What will happen to those employes who are already working on PGWP. Most of the big and medium sized companies in Canada are staying away from this hassel even though there will be no fee for EE oriented LMIA but still there would be paper work involved which companies dont like to do.

Imagine when the job posting is out on the papers (that's a requirement for the LMIA) how many permanent residents or citizenships are gonna apply to it, since the Canadian economy is low.

So it's not difficult to get a negative LMIA ...

Any comments?

 

[kvn]

No further clarification CIC is needed. The Ministerial instructions that just came out give you all the information you need. There is only one kind of "arranged job offer" that gives you the 600 points and it is as defined in the Ministerial instructions. Part of that definition is that an officer of Employment and Skills Development Canada must evaluate the job offer and make a positive Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA). This applies to everyone, whether new grads on PGWP or monkeys in Timbuktu.

You say that nowhere does it say you need LMIA in the FAQ page for Express Entry. Nowhere does it HAVE TO say. It's explicit in the Ministerial Instructions. So if you're waiting for some new CIC web page to tell you what you want to hear (i.e. that you won't need LMIA and that the door hasn't been shut in your face) you'll be waiting till your hair turns gray.

You can still continue to believe what you want but if you keep thinking you're good to apply with just PGWP without LMIA then, like phil above said, you'll be in for a rude surprise when you enter the pool and never hear back from CIC.

Yes that was a question i asked a while back, but further reading now seems to point to the need of a LMIA to be eligible for 600 points.

An interesting statement about the PGWP without LMIA. Why do you believe that without LMIA that PGWP candidates will not be able to make the cut?

 

[malik786]

how much time does it take to get a positive LMIA ?
i herd 10 days?
is that true

 

[jes_ON]

Folks this is very unfortunate. For the new system they say If the position or person was previously exempt from an LMIA, then a new LMIA will be required under Express Entry. When you get your LMIA, it will have an associated number that you will need to give to your Express Entry candidate.

Source:http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/hire/offers.asp

that is true only if you want the points for arranged employment.

 

[marcus66502]

Yes that was a question i asked a while back, but further reading now seems to point to the need of a LMIA to be eligible for 600 points.

An interesting statement about the PGWP without LMIA. Why do you believe that without LMIA that PGWP candidates will not be able to make the cut?

In theory it's possible to make the cut without an LMIA but in order for that to happen there would need to be an insufficient number of entry pool applicants with an LMIA or provincial nomination. This is because (per CIC's statements online) the applicants with LMIA or provincial nominations get selected first (they are the only ones "guaranteed" to receive an invitation to apply).

So it's all a matter of how many entry pool applicants there are with LMIA or provincial nominations. CIC has a target quota it wants to meet so yes it's possible that they will start inviting people without LMIA to apply but that's the very last resort when they've run out of entry pool applicants with LMIA or provincial nominations. Put another way, without LMIA or provincial nomination you will be the lowest priority. I wouldn't be very hopeful for an invitation without LMIA, at least not without knowing how many applicants they get in the pool with LMIA, and there's really no way to know that.

 

[Regina]

I just Spoke to CIC ... PGWP is an LMIA exempt work permit.... We can apply under EE provided we have full time regular pemanent job offer falling under NOC O A B Category...


Happy!!

For applying for PR thru EE under CEC:
You have to have 12 months of job experience in Canada.

However, you may apply under provincial program when you have just a permanent job offer (occupation in NOC 0,A,B).

 

[Regina]

In theory it's possible to make the cut without an LMIA

It is NOT a theory. CIC MUST get 250 000 immigrants a year. And there are not so many potential applicants with job in Canada.
Look at Australia system, it works just fine for immigrants from outside. As CIC copied EE system from Australia, it will work for applicants to Canada.

 

[marcus66502]

I just Spoke to CIC ... PGWP is an LMIA exempt work permit.... We can apply under EE provided we have full time regular pemanent job offer falling under NOC O A B Category...
Happy!!

I think you misunderstand what the agent was trying to tell you. You only need a full time regular permanent job with NOC 0, A, or B in order to meet the criteria to enter the EE pool.

Whether you actually get selected from that pool depends on your ranking score and without an LMIA for your job, you won't get the 600 points and so you'll be ranked below everybody with LMIA or provincial nomination. This is because without LMIA your job offer does not meet the definition of "qualifying offer of arranged employment" as defined in the Ministerial Instructions. It's this "qualifying offer" that fetches you the 600 points, not just any job.

Here's the text of that definition in the Ministerial Instructions (from http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2014/2014-12-01-x10/html/extra10-eng.php)

“qualifying offer of arranged employment” means

(a) an offer of employment, in an occupation listed in Skill Type 0 Management Occupations or Skill Level A or B of the National Occupational Classification matrix, that is made to a foreign national by an employer other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for full-time work in Canada that is non-seasonal and indeterminate and that is supported by an opinion referred to in subparagraph 82(2)(c)(ii) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;
(b) an offer of employment, in a Skill Level B occupation of the National Occupational Classification matrix listed in the categories set out in subsection 87.2(1) of the Regulations, that is made to a foreign national by up to two employers, other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for continuous full-time work in Canada for at least one year and that is supported by an opinion referred to in clause 87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;
(c) an offer of employment, in an occupation listed in Skill Type 0 Management Occupations or Skill Level A or B of the National Occupational Classification matrix, that is made to a foreign national who is working in Canada by the employer listed on their work permit, other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for full-time work in Canada that is non-seasonal and indeterminate, if the work permit was issued on the basis of an opinion referred to in subsection 203(1) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development with respect to the foreign national's employment in that occupation; or
(d) an offer of employment, in a Skill Level B occupation of the National Occupational Classification matrix listed in the categories set out in subsection 87.2(1) of the Regulations, that is made to a foreign national by one or both employers listed on their work permit, other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for continuous full-time work in Canada for a total of at least one year in a skilled trade occupation that is in the same minor group set out in the National Occupational Classification as the occupation specified on their work permit, if the work permit was issued on the basis of an opinion referred to in subsection 203(1) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development.

The parts I have put in boldface refer to the LMIA, if you look up the regulations that are mentioned.

As you can see, there are four cases, corresponding to whether the applicant is outside Canada or in Canada already working under a work permit. Parts (c) and (d) cover the case of someone already working in Canada. In this case, if your job has not had an LMIA already issued, then your employer will need to get one, or your job will NOT meet this definition as a "qualifying offer of arranged employment", and you will NOT get the 600 points.

The 600 points are either for a "qualifying offer of arranged employment" as defined above or a provincial nomination. There is no place in the Ministerial Instructions that exempts PGWP's or ANYBODY ELSE, from having to meet this definition.

If you still want to believe you'll be exempt from the LMIA requirement, you're in for a rude surprise when you never hear back from CIC. What are you going to do then? Call CIC and quote the call center agent you spoke to? You think that's going to help your case?

 

[bambooshka]

I think you misunderstand what the agent was trying to tell you. You only need a full time regular permanent job with NOC 0, A, or B in order to meet the criteria to enter the EE pool.

Whether you actually get selected from that pool depends on your ranking score and without an LMIA for your job, you won't get the 600 points and so you'll be ranked below everybody with LMIA or provincial nomination. This is because without LMIA your job offer does not meet the definition of "qualifying offer of arranged employment" as defined in the Ministerial Instructions. It's this "qualifying offer" that fetches you the 600 points, not just any job.

Here's the text of that definition in the Ministerial Instructions (from http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2014/2014-12-01-x10/html/extra10-eng.php)

“qualifying offer of arranged employment” means

(a) an offer of employment, in an occupation listed in Skill Type 0 Management Occupations or Skill Level A or B of the National Occupational Classification matrix, that is made to a foreign national by an employer other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for full-time work in Canada that is non-seasonal and indeterminate and that is supported by an opinion referred to in subparagraph 82(2)(c)(ii) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;
(b) an offer of employment, in a Skill Level B occupation of the National Occupational Classification matrix listed in the categories set out in subsection 87.2(1) of the Regulations, that is made to a foreign national by up to two employers, other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for continuous full-time work in Canada for at least one year and that is supported by an opinion referred to in clause 87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;
(c) an offer of employment, in an occupation listed in Skill Type 0 Management Occupations or Skill Level A or B of the National Occupational Classification matrix, that is made to a foreign national who is working in Canada by the employer listed on their work permit, other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for full-time work in Canada that is non-seasonal and indeterminate, if the work permit was issued on the basis of an opinion referred to in subsection 203(1) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development with respect to the foreign national's employment in that occupation; or
(d) an offer of employment, in a Skill Level B occupation of the National Occupational Classification matrix listed in the categories set out in subsection 87.2(1) of the Regulations, that is made to a foreign national by one or both employers listed on their work permit, other than an embassy, high commission or consulate in Canada or an employer that appears on the list referred to in subsection 209.91(3) of the Regulations, for continuous full-time work in Canada for a total of at least one year in a skilled trade occupation that is in the same minor group set out in the National Occupational Classification as the occupation specified on their work permit, if the work permit was issued on the basis of an opinion referred to in subsection 203(1) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development.

The parts I have put in boldface refer to the LMIA, if you look up the regulations that are mentioned.

As you can see, there are four cases, corresponding to whether the applicant is outside Canada or in Canada already working under a work permit. Parts (c) and (d) cover the case of someone already working in Canada. In this case, if your job has not had an LMIA already issued, then your employer will need to get one, or your job will NOT meet this definition as a "qualifying offer of arranged employment", and you will NOT get the 600 points.

The 600 points are either for a "qualifying offer of arranged employment" as defined above or a provincial nomination. There is no place in the Ministerial Instructions that exempts PGWP's or ANYBODY ELSE, from having to meet this definition.

If you still want to believe you'll be exempt from the LMIA requirement, you're in for a rude surprise when you never hear back from CIC. What are you going to do then? Call CIC and quote the call center agent you spoke to? You think that's going to help your case?

You are quite vitriolic and caustic indeed. Now let's follow the rulebook plainly here. The important/relevant points mentioned here are, and as you also bolded them:-

job offer ... and that is supported by an opinion referred to in subparagraph 82(2)(c)(ii) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;

and that is supported by an opinion referred to in clause 87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;

Now let's go check out 82(2)(c)(ii) and clause 87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B).

82(2)(c)(ii)

c) the skilled worker does not hold a valid work permit and is not authorized to work in Canada under section 186 on the date on which their application for a permanent resident visa is made and

(ii) an officer has approved the offer of employment based on an opinion — provided to the officer by the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, on the same basis as an opinion provided for the issuance of a work permit, at the request of the employer or an officer — that the requirements set out in subsection 203(1) with respect to the offer have been met; or

87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B).

(iv) they do not hold a valid work permit or are not authorized to work in Canada under section 186 on the date on which their application is made and

(B) an officer has approved the offer for full-time work — based on an opinion provided to the officer by the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, on the same basis as an opinion provided for the issuance of a work permit, at the request of up to two employers or an officer — that the requirements set out in subsection 203(1) with respect to the offer have been met, and

So in effect if you do not have a Visa, then you have to go get an opinion if we follow the rulebook, the clauses are not used in isolation. PGWP is already a visa, why would they need to get an opinion when the skilled worker has been permitted to work in Canada?

So there is still a chance for ambiguity here. The sections underlying paragraph has to satisfy the clauses it falls under which means that only workers without Visas have to get an opinion; or they mean that no matter what you have to satisfy that single clause itself which would be a bit weird and break the logical hierarchy the clause is under. I think the legalese here is to prevent illegals without work permit to get 600 points.

 

[marcus66502]

You are quite vitriolic and caustic indeed. Now let's follow the rulebook plainly here. The important/relevant points mentioned here are, and as you also bolded them:-

job offer ... and that is supported by an opinion referred to in subparagraph 82(2)(c)(ii) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;

and that is supported by an opinion referred to in clause 87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B) of the Regulations that was provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development;

Now let's go check out 82(2)(c)(ii) and clause 87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B).

82(2)(c)(ii)
87.2(3)(d)(iv)(B).
So in effect if you do not have a Visa, then you have to go get an opinion if we follow the rulebook, the clauses are not used in isolation. PGWP is already a visa, why would they need to get an opinion when the skilled worker has been permitted to work in Canada?

So there is still a chance for ambiguity here. The sections underlying paragraph has to satisfy the clauses it falls under which means that only workers without Visas have to get an opinion; or they mean that no matter what you have to satisfy that single clause itself which would be a bit weird and break the logical hierarchy the clause is under. I think the legalese here is to prevent illegals without work permit to get 600 points.

It's funny that you only quote and check out clauses from the first two parts of the definition in the Ministerial instructions. Those are for people outside Canada and don't apply to you if you're already working in Canada. The parts that apply to you are the the last two parts (c) and (d) and the only regulation mentioned in these parts is Regulation 203(1) of the Immigration Regulations. Let's check out THAT regulation,


203. (1) On application under Division 2 for a work permit made by a foreign national other than a foreign national referred to in subparagraphs 200(1)(c)(i) to (ii.1), an officer must determine, on the basis of an opinion provided by the Department of Employment and Social Development, of any information provided on the officer's request by the employer making the offer and of any other relevant information, if

(a) the job offer is genuine under subsection 200(5);

(b) the employment of the foreign national is likely to have a neutral or positive effect on the labour market in Canada;

etc. etc. etc. ................................ (goes on to mention what criteria will be considered for a labor market opinion)


In parts (c) and (d) of the ministerial definition, which you conveniently ignore, it says, as I have boldfaced, that your job offer must be supported by an opinion of EDSC issued under this regulation 203(1). This is the LMIA requirement.

So, according to parts (c) and (d) of the Minister's definition, if you're already working in Canada under any work permit (PGWP or otherwise), the only job that will be counted as a "qualifying offer of arranged employment" is a job that has already had an LMIA issued.

I see no ambiguity here. What I do see is you in denial.