Physical Presence Conundrum

[arambi]

LOL. Hopefully it won't become a protracted battle with CIC. But am just thinking out loud, for foreign workers working offshore that need to be out for work related purposes, what's the hope for them? I presume that was why the judges were there to judge the merits of each individual cases. Does this mean we are now only at the mercy of the CIC officers and how they use their own discretion?

No hope. The new law is very clear on the meaning of physical presence... No more room for judge interpretation.

 

[eileenf]

There's little difference meeting the PR requirements and Citizenship. 5 months isn't that different from 6. It's doable but would be very hectic and demanding. I would have to be in the country every alternate month for the next 4 years consecutively.

You are misunderstanding and underestimating the requirements for Canadian citizenship.

It's not just 183 days for 4 years. It's 4 full years (1,460 days) out of 6 years PLUS being physically present in Canada for at least 183 days per year in 4 out of 6 years. It is not 732 days in 4 years.

The purpose of the 183 day rule (which many people and journalists get mixed up about) is to ensure that you have tax residency and are required to file taxes in Canada. Additionally one must declare their "intent to reside" in Canada at time of citizenship application.

The new Citizenship Act has defined residence to mean physical presence in Canada, rather than merely a "centralized mode of existence" or having family here or paying taxes here. Once the residency portion of the new citizenship Act comes into force (next June or so), the CIC will not approve any cases where there is less than 1460 days of declared physical presence plus tax residency for at least 4 years.

 

[eltorpe]

LOL. Hopefully it won't become a protracted battle with CIC. But am just thinking out loud, for foreign workers working offshore that need to be out for work related purposes, what's the hope for them? I presume that was why the judges were there to judge the merits of each individual cases. Does this mean we are now only at the mercy of the CIC officers and how they use their own discretion?

When it comes to residence, there's little-to-no discretion when the new law comes into effect. The definition of "residence" under the old law (which is still in effect currently) isn't clear as to whether residence == physical residence.

Old law states: "...within the four years immediately preceding the date of his or her application, accumulated at least three years of residence in Canada"

New law states: "...been physically present in Canada for at least 1,460 days during the six years immediately before the date of his or her application"

 

[zardoz]

It is safe to say that, given the information provided regarding your residency intentions, you have zero chance of obtaining Canadian citizenship. You simply will not comply with the physical residency requirements, which are no longer open to interpretation.

 

[Donxavier]

It is safe to say that, given the information provided regarding your residency intentions, you have zero chance of obtaining Canadian citizenship. You simply will not comply with the physical residency requirements, which are no longer open to interpretation.

It would appear so. or unless I stay about 8 months in 6 years. Either way, it's an hefty price

 

[zardoz]

It would appear so. or unless I stay about 8 months in 6 years. Either way, it's an hefty price

It's intended to be..

 

[kentTO]

Hi,

I got my PR early this year through the Quebec Immigrant Investor Program, spent just 2 months inside Canada and am back in my home country. I'm aware of the very stringent new citizenship requirements especially as regards spending 183 days minimum yearly in an overall period of 4 out of 6 years. I'm a global business traveller based in Africa and just may not be able to meet this physical presence criteria. I want to know is there any creative way around this requirement? I can come to Canada from time to time but spending 6 months straight in any given year in Canada just isn't good for my business during this present time but I need the passport ...... Does anyone have any creative solutions?

You wont be eligible for citizenship as per your background. You need to be domiciled in Canada and living here.

Are you paying and filing taxes in Canada? Do you have a house/home? Is your business a Canadian business? Why does you need to be out of the country for more than 6 months in a year if you are doing business trips, etc?

 

[kentTO]

I see things have really changed. There's little difference meeting the PR requirements and Citizenship. 5 months isn't that different from 6. It's doable but would be very hectic and demanding. I would have to be in the country every alternate month for the next 4 years consecutively. That's some very hard work.

It's actually very easy work if your intention was to move to Canada permanently and settle. You won't even need to travel out of the country!

 

[Donxavier]

It's actually very easy work if your intention was to move to Canada permanently and settle. You won't even need to travel out of the country!

Lols.... Move to settle down permanently sometime in the future, Yes but now NO. [ Are you paying and filing taxes in Canada? Do you have a house/home? Is your business a Canadian business? Why does you need to be out of the country for more than 6 months in a year if you are doing business trips]- All of these can be arranged and worked out. I basically need to be out of the country for more than six months because my business is based abroad and not here in Canada and being in Canada for extensive periods isn't good now. I figured I would have to be here at least 8 months in the next 6 years to actually qualify for the passport. or just move my international operations to Canada and do the full four years, get the passport....then I can leave and come back any time at my choosing and convenience. those seem to be my only options as at now.

 

[kentTO]

Lols.... Move to settle down permanently sometime in the future, Yes but now NO. [ Are you paying and filing taxes in Canada? Do you have a house/home? Is your business a Canadian business? Why does you need to be out of the country for more than 6 months in a year if you are doing business trips]- All of these can be arranged and worked out. I basically need to be out of the country for more than six months because my business is based abroad and not here in Canada and being in Canada for extensive periods isn't good now. I figured I would have to be here at least 8 months in the next 6 years to actually qualify for the passport. or just move my international operations to Canada and do the full four years, get the passport....then I can leave and come back any time at my choosing and convenience. those seem to be my only options as at now.

Also consider thinking long term... because nothing ever stays the same.

E.g. for the first year, you may be out of the country for more than 6 months..... but things change and circumstances change... who knows, in second year, you may start to stay for longer and third year you may not even travel!

It's also not the end of the world - you still have PR.

Just let the citizenship process run its course. Don't worry over it. You'll be eligible when you become eligible.

 

[Goldline]

Citizenship and Immigration Minister Chris Alexander ........ he wants them to sign an "intent to reside” commitment.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCABREA151E420140206

I used a magnifier to read the article and couldn't see that anywhere. Please show me where, in this article(link) does it say the applicant needs to sign an " intent to reside" AFTER BECOMING CITIZEN.

 

[eltorpe]

I used a magnifier to read the article and couldn't see that anywhere. Please show me where, in this article(link) does it say the applicant needs to sign an " intent to reside" AFTER BECOMING CITIZEN.

That statement probably came from a different link Maybe this one? - http://newcanadianmedia.ca/item/14638-who-constitutes-a-citizen-of-convenience:

But Alexander not only wants to ensure that applicants “play by the rules” during their citizenship application, he wants them to sign an "intent to reside” commitment.

There's also this article - http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/06/18/the-new-citizenship-act-is-efficient-is-it-fair/:

Applicants will have to sign an “intent to reside” commitment

And this one - http://www.cicsimmigration.com/new-canadian-citizenship-rules-what-you-need-to-know/:

Newcomers will be expected to show that they have established strong ties to Canada and residence requirements will ensure that the applicant has resided physically in Canada for the duration that is specified in the Act (physical presence of 4 out of 6 years or 1,460 days) with a signed declaration of “intent to reside” in Canada.

Donvalley's post did not say anything about "intent to reside" after becoming a citizen. The text in the law, however, does say:

(c.1) intends, if granted citizenship,
(i) to continue to reside in Canada,

and

(1.1) For the purposes of paragraphs (1)(c.1) and 11(1)(e), the person's intention must be continuous from the date of his or her application until they have taken the oath of citizenship.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/nifnev.html

During the third reading of Bill C-24 in the House of Commons, Minister Chris Alexander said:

Let me remind this House, nothing in those provisions constrains the mobility rights of either a permanent resident or a citizen. Someone can have the intent to reside, but then their plans change and they move elsewhere, not fulfilling the residency requirements for citizenship. They do not become a citizen, perhaps until later in their life. After they obtain citizenship, of course Canadians are free to do whatever they want as citizens.
http://openparliament.ca/debates/2014/6/12/chris-alexander-14/

Additionally:

Citizenship applicants would be asked as part of the application process whether they intend to reside in Canada
http://openparliament.ca/debates/2014/6/12/costas-menegakis-4/

Would it curb their mobility rights? Absolutely not. For people who say they intend to reside in Canada and then decide to go somewhere else or marry someone else or accept a job offer somewhere else, their intent to reside in Canada ends. Their physical presence in Canada is curtailed. They would not qualify for Canadian citizenship at that point in their lives. So be it.
http://openparliament.ca/debates/2014/5/28/chris-alexander-24/

And from the senate:

Nicole Girard is a lawyer with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. She was asked by the minister to speak as a legal mind to his comments regarding the Charter and the intent to reside.

Ms. Girard offered: The only thing that I would add to what the minister has already said, and I think he's been very clear at this point, is that the language that you're reading in the drafting of the bill has to be read in the larger context of what these requirements are.

So, then, what are these requirements "in the larger context," meaning beyond the language of the bill? They are the requirements to become a citizen of Canada. They are the requirements until the period of residence has been met and the applicant obtains the grant of citizenship.

Let's apply this application of the larger context to some of the scenarios Senator Eggleton cited as evidence of his concerns over this aspect of the bill. He posed a hypothetical question, "What happens if you have to leave the country shortly after obtaining your citizenship, either to work or to study?"

The answer is simple: The individual is free to leave the country, as is any other citizen — or, to again quote the words of the minister at committee, to do so with "no problem."

Once one becomes a citizen of Canada, once they have fulfilled their conditions and served their four out of six years, they are indeed as free as any born Canadian to come and go as they please. In fact, it bears repeating for the record that Citizenship and Immigration Canada does not track citizens. CRA may track for income tax purposes; provincial health ministries may track residency around health care issues; but movement of citizens is not tracked by CIC.

We leave the final word on this matter to Minister Alexander, who reminded the committee that intent to reside was "a common-sense measure." He went on to say:

It's something that clarifies an issue where, because of abuse, there had been a lack of clarity in the past, and no one at any stage is barred from changing their intention. If you change it before you've met the four years requirement, you won't become a citizen, or at least not at this stage in your life. If you change it the day after the ceremony, off you go.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/Sen/Chamber/412/Debates/075db_2014-06-19-e.htm

 

[Donvalley]

I used a magnifier to read the article and couldn't see that anywhere. Please show me where, in this article(link) does it say the applicant needs to sign an " intent to reside" AFTER BECOMING CITIZEN.

First of all I did not say anything about sign an " intent to reside" AFTER BECOMING CITIZEN.

No need of magnifier, just keep your eyes and ears opened to news, you will know where it is.

It was widely reported in the media earlier this year about an "intent to reside" signature clause in the proposed citizenship rules when debates were just heating up . See the following links and check the senate debates where they spent almost a day on arguments and counter arguments on the "intent to reside" issue:

Video:
Clarification of "intention to reside in Canada" clause in the Bill C-24 by CIC Minister Chris Alexander in the Senate committee meeting on June 12 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMoa1vbxRWk

Official Text:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/Sen/Chamber/412/Debates/075db_2014-06-19-e.htm

News:
Ottawa proposes sweeping new citizenship rules to crack down on fraud, better define national identity.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-proposes-sweeping-new-citizenship-rules-to-crack-down-on-fraud-better-define-national-identity/article16745308/?page=all

Globe editorial Chris Alexander's flawed overhaul of citizenship law.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/chris-alexanders-flawed-overhaul-of-citizenship-law/article16732791/

 

[keesio]

That still figures about 5 months in any year. This is really tough. What if am running a business from inside Canada that requires frequent travel. We are talking creative solutions here. Is that going to work in convincing a Judge?

Really the only way you can be working abroad and have it count towards your PR and Citizenship residency requirements is if you work for the Canadian military and is stationed abroad or if you work for the Canadian federal government and is posted abroad (like sent to work in the Canadian embassy in a foreign government). Now.. PR is a little bit easier... but you have to be working for some major Canadian employer (think MAJOR like Rogers, RBC, CBC, Bombardier, etc) and have your job (and you) transferred to some foreign post for your PR days to count (and it still will not apply to Citizenship anyway). There is no chance CIC will accept someone who is self-employed and then "posts himself abroad". They are really really strict about this.

 

[Travel Dream]

can someone explain for me what is this ?

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/nifnev.html

is this the last edition of bill c-24 ?