Parent Sponsorship - Pros and Cons

[Rob_TO]

If so, why the government create sales tax GST? Everyone including tourist (unless they complete some form to get a refund) are contributing even a dime.

They are not contributing nothing. You are right every time a PGP purchases something and pays HST, GST or PST, buys a lottery ticket, or whatever else... it funds the overall tax revenue pool, of which some goes to healthcare. However the amount this ends up contributing, vs what the average Canadian costs for healthcare... results in pennies on the dollar.

Consider that the "average" Canadian uses $220K in healthcare costs over their lifetime. Consider also that 44% of ALL an average Canadian's healthcare costs are used after age 65, the average age for a newly arrived PGP PR. So basically each PGP that comes to Canada, represents around a $100K bill to Canada in healthcare alone.
Stats show only 1 in 10 people over the age of 65 are in the workforce, and historical stats following PGP immigrants show the average salary of the PGPs that submit tax returns are in the $15K range.

So in other words if you add up all the sales tax or income tax a PGP pays in their lifetime after arriving to Canada... it will not come remotely close to their healthcare bill. And not considering any other social services they use after the 20 year undertaking. So again, the PGP program is NOT a revenue neutral or profitable thing. It is a compassionate family reunification vehicle that is generously funded by ALL Canadians (not just the sponsor and co-signer) and should be seen as such.

 

[ishy]

I'm pretty sure the main reason to sponsor is free health care. You'd be stupid to not take advantage of this. (Compared to the super visa)

It is all about financials. I can give you an example in graduate studies. An international student can get domestic tuition if they apply for pr. A lot of them get rejected but don't tell the school registrar, this saves them roughly 10k per year of tuition. Guess what, taxpayers pay for that 10k difference.

 

[ZIDYAY]

I think all the exchanges taking place here while some are rational and the others are emotional, don't have much meaning because the die had been cast. The new rules are set up in a way clearly to lessen the burden on taxpayers and more on the sponsors. In the coming years I am seeing the pattern that government would like to happen- less and less number of parents and grandparents will be issued PR visa while, care for them is placed on the shoulders of their own children.

In the years to come all pensioners in Canada will only be those that paid to the system because newcomers will no longer be allowed to bring their elders. Then no new immigrants will come also to Canada.

 

[screech339]

I think all the exchanges taking place here while some are rational and the others are emotional, don't have much meaning because the die had been cast. The new rules are set up in a way clearly to lessen the burden on taxpayers and more on the sponsors. In the coming years I am seeing the pattern that government would like to happen- less and less number of parents and grandparents will be issued PR visa while, care for them is placed on the shoulders of their own children.

In the years to come all pensioners in Canada will only be those that paid to the system because newcomers will no longer be allowed to bring their elders. Then no new immigrants will come also to Canada.

The question now lies in whether the cap will increase once the backlog of the old PGP get cleared. Will it remain the same or increase after the backlog cleared.

 

[Rob_TO]

I think all the exchanges taking place here while some are rational and the others are emotional, don't have much meaning because the die had been cast.

The reason I supplied all the actual stats and costs behind parents immigrating to Canada, is that the poster I was responding to mistakenly thought that ALL costs that would be incurred by their parents over their life in Canada, would be covered entirely by the sponsor/co-signer/parents themselves. Which is completely wrong even assuming the new financial rules.

The new rules are set up in a way clearly to lessen the burden on taxpayers and more on the sponsors. In the coming years I am seeing the pattern that government would like to happen- less and less number of parents and grandparents will be issued PR visa while, care for them is placed on the shoulders of their own children.
In the years to come all pensioners in Canada will only be those that paid to the system because newcomers will no longer be allowed to bring their elders. Then no new immigrants will come also to Canada.

Who knows what the new rules or caps will be going forward. I think there will always be a parent program in place, but it will be controlled much more tightly going forward.

Canada will NEVER stop immigration, that is just silly. One of the main sources of growth of this country is through immigration. What the government may do at times is to put priority on younger people immigrating through skilled worker or economic classes, to ensure the majority of new immigrants actually add to our economy as a whole.

 

[screech339]

The reason I supplied all the actual stats and costs behind parents immigrating to Canada, is that the poster I was responding to mistakenly thought that ALL costs that would be incurred by their parents over their life in Canada, would be covered entirely by the sponsor/co-signer/parents themselves. Which is completely wrong even assuming the new financial rules.

Who knows what the new rules or caps will be going forward. I think there will always be a parent program in place, but it will be controlled much more tightly going forward.

Canada will NEVER stop immigration, that is just silly. One of the main sources of growth of this country is through immigration. What the government may do at times is to put priority on younger people immigrating through skilled worker or economic classes, to ensure the majority of new immigrants actually add to our economy as a whole.

Not only targeting younger people but target young people with skills that are actually in demand according to job markets.

No point in bringing over university educated people over if there is no job for them in their specific field. Plus with associations only recognizing specific universities credentials, these educated people can't even work as doctors, nurses, dentists, teachers. Plus most employers won't consider foreign work experience usually because they can't verify their work experiences. Most employers trust those with US, Canada work experience over most others, but not all.

Under the old points system, one can enter Canada with a university degree without any consideration that their field of education are not in demand at all.

I had one Palestinian telling me that he wanted to move his family out of Kuwait. Anywhere. He couldn't get into any European countries as immigration rules were tough to meet. Canada was the easiest to immigrate to under the point system. Brought his wife and 3 kids with him. He has a degree in accounting and he still can't find work in accounting after 5 years of being in Canada.

Screech339

 

[screech339]

The immigration points system has got to be the dumbest approach to immigration. Way too easy to enter Canada without taking market demand into consideration.

The work skill program now in place makes the more sense as it would actually depend on Canada job market demand. You could actually come into Canada, get a job, and contribute to the economy.

Screech339

 

[canvis2006]

lol @ immigrants arguing over health-care.

The cost of healthcare is high in Canada only because the workers want so much high pay. Cost of everything is inflated.
In other countries, the same medical equipment, the same medicines are cheaper. The workers get paid a lot less.
Here everything is inflated, from house prices down to most basic things. Even a pencil sharpener costs $5k to install in a toronto school.
IS that my tax money being used? If this is it, then its better to spend it on someone's parents instead.

You're still responsible for buying your own medicines. How many days are these immigrating parents spending in hospitals in total? You sound as if they're in hospital since day 1 after landing. Do you not see that they live lives just like everyone else? So what if they're 65 or 70 or 55? Why does it bother you so much? Did these parents not let their most beloved to come contribute to Canada? They shouldn't have done that?
They should've kept their children with them? In today's society it must be considered cool to throw away parents like used tissue paper?
No wonder the old homes here are full of thrown away and forgotten old parents, whose kids are too busy in their cool lives to care.
Cycle repeats itself.

They pass medical exams and only then they are admitted to Canada. They come spend time with children and grandchildren, help them nourish and nurture them. There is a big difference between kids who have grandparents in their lives and kids who didn't.

Not everything is about money. And PGP are important part of family. I don't know why you guys are always arguing about health costs. In their own countries these people also pay their doctors and private hospitals. They can still do health procedures in their home countries. Most Canadian doctors are too scared to recommend medicines, too scared about liability. They're dumbed down to the point where they can't even diagnose people properly. No wonder Canadians are flocking to other countries for health-care, with money.

If healthcare is so damn important and you worry about finances, lets bring a policy where we just ship back any immigrants/citizen/PR's who develop a terminal illness. So you can save your Canada, while the govt wastes money on illegal wars, kills innocent people in muslim countries in the name of freedoms, and gives away billions in aid to corrupt countries to support their puppets. Oh, and don't forget the senate scandals while at that.

No wonder mental illnesses and weird illnesses are generating in Canada at record levels. The whole family system is broken down, all in the name of the almighty dollar. No wonder we have the highest percentage of depression, stress, anxiety, unhappiness, subway-jumpers, killers, stabbers, and tired people of all time. Cuz it's all about the money.

 

[Jacaranda]

lol @ immigrants arguing over health-care.

The cost of healthcare is high in Canada only because the workers want so much high pay. Cost of everything is inflated.
In other countries, the same medical equipment, the same medicines are cheaper. The workers get paid a lot less.
Here everything is inflated, from house prices down to most basic things. Even a pencil sharpener costs $5k to install in a toronto school.
IS that my tax money being used? If this is it, then its better to spend it on someone's parents instead.

You're still responsible for buying your own medicines. How many days are these immigrating parents spending in hospitals in total? You sound as if they're in hospital since day 1 after landing. Do you not see that they live lives just like everyone else? So what if they're 65 or 70 or 55? Why does it bother you so much? Did these parents not let their most beloved to come contribute to Canada? They shouldn't have done that?
They should've kept their children with them? In today's society it must be considered cool to throw away parents like used tissue paper?
No wonder the old homes here are full of thrown away and forgotten old parents, whose kids are too busy in their cool lives to care.
Cycle repeats itself.

They pass medical exams and only then they are admitted to Canada. They come spend time with children and grandchildren, help them nourish and nurture them. There is a big difference between kids who have grandparents in their lives and kids who didn't.

Not everything is about money. And PGP are important part of family. I don't know why you guys are always arguing about health costs. In their own countries these people also pay their doctors and private hospitals. They can still do health procedures in their home countries. Most Canadian doctors are too scared to recommend medicines, too scared about liability. They're dumbed down to the point where they can't even diagnose people properly. No wonder Canadians are flocking to other countries for health-care, with money.

If healthcare is so damn important and you worry about finances, lets bring a policy where we just ship back any immigrants/citizen/PR's who develop a terminal illness. So you can save your Canada, while the govt wastes money on illegal wars, kills innocent people in muslim countries in the name of freedoms, and gives away billions in aid to corrupt countries to support their puppets. Oh, and don't forget the senate scandals while at that.

No wonder mental illnesses and weird illnesses are generating in Canada at record levels. The whole family system is broken down, all in the name of the almighty dollar. No wonder we have the highest percentage of depression, stress, anxiety, unhappiness, subway-jumpers, killers, stabbers, and tired people of all time. Cuz it's all about the money.

I agree with ever single point above, call it 'emotional' if i am pro wanting my parents living with me... but if canada needs my skills to add to their economy then it is my emotional need to have my parents living with me and watching their grandchildren grow up and that their basic needs like medical should be covered like all residents of the country. only then can me and my family call this country home.

 

[screech339]

The PGP is a great program but it got to be realistic in their cost factors. We all can't just bring in everyone into Canada. Our health care would probably collapse.

The topic was about pros and cons of PGP. One of the posters doesn't want to acknowledge that one of the cons side of PGP is the cost factor to health care believing only they are paying for their parents health care needs through their taxes and no one else. Which isn't true. Everyone pay into the system.

The pro side of PGP is of course that parents/grandparents can spend the remainder of their lives seeing their grandchildren grow up.

 

[Rob_TO]

lol @ immigrants arguing over health-care.

The cost of healthcare is high in Canada only because the workers want so much high pay. Cost of everything is inflated.
In other countries, the same medical equipment, the same medicines are cheaper. The workers get paid a lot less.
Here everything is inflated, from house prices down to most basic things. Even a pencil sharpener costs $5k to install in a toronto school.
IS that my tax money being used? If this is it, then its better to spend it on someone's parents instead.

You're still responsible for buying your own medicines. How many days are these immigrating parents spending in hospitals in total? You sound as if they're in hospital since day 1 after landing. Do you not see that they live lives just like everyone else? So what if they're 65 or 70 or 55? Why does it bother you so much? Did these parents not let their most beloved to come contribute to Canada? They shouldn't have done that?
They should've kept their children with them? In today's society it must be considered cool to throw away parents like used tissue paper?
No wonder the old homes here are full of thrown away and forgotten old parents, whose kids are too busy in their cool lives to care.
Cycle repeats itself.

They pass medical exams and only then they are admitted to Canada. They come spend time with children and grandchildren, help them nourish and nurture them. There is a big difference between kids who have grandparents in their lives and kids who didn't.

Not everything is about money. And PGP are important part of family. I don't know why you guys are always arguing about health costs. In their own countries these people also pay their doctors and private hospitals. They can still do health procedures in their home countries. Most Canadian doctors are too scared to recommend medicines, too scared about liability. They're dumbed down to the point where they can't even diagnose people properly. No wonder Canadians are flocking to other countries for health-care, with money.

If healthcare is so damn important and you worry about finances, lets bring a policy where we just ship back any immigrants/citizen/PR's who develop a terminal illness. So you can save your Canada, while the govt wastes money on illegal wars, kills innocent people in muslim countries in the name of freedoms, and gives away billions in aid to corrupt countries to support their puppets. Oh, and don't forget the senate scandals while at that.

No wonder mental illnesses and weird illnesses are generating in Canada at record levels. The whole family system is broken down, all in the name of the almighty dollar. No wonder we have the highest percentage of depression, stress, anxiety, unhappiness, subway-jumpers, killers, stabbers, and tired people of all time. Cuz it's all about the money.

You completely miss the entire point. If you had actually bothered to read all of the posts, then you'd see i stated multiple times that the PGP program is a good thing and i support it completely.

I'm just saying that one has to be aware of the finances behind it, which you don't seem to understand at all. The stats I posted are AVERAGE stats so would apply to the typical PGP immigrant as well.

In a perfect society, of course Canada would allow not just parents and grandparents, but also all brothers, sisters, nephews, cousins and everyone in ones family... for a big joyful family living together in Canada. There would also be no waiting times, and everyone would be approved to sponsor. Of course in this case, the costs to healthcare and other services would be overwhelming, and obviously its not feasible. Between this and not having a program whatsoever... there is a medium ground.

So again i fully support the PGP program and hope it continues forever. Maybe even one day my wife will want to sponsor her parents over. But as a born and raised tax paying Canadian, I also want to make sure its run responsibly. Completely ignoring the costs of all of Canada's humanitarian and compassionate efforts, is just being ignorant.

 

[jomz]

The Canadian Health Care system should collapse because it is broken, it can't be repaired because it is flawed. Administration cost (the beaurocratic nightmare) of today's health care system is out of control. And once the health care system collapses it should be built up again from basics.

I do not blame parent sponsorship for the above, or any type of sponsorship, costs may be high for healthcare in Canada and the only reason why they are high in Canada is because the prices hospitals charge for treatment/stays in hospitals are overinflated.

Do you know what average cost is to have tonsils removed in a Canadian Hospital.
Since tonsil surgery will require some form of anesthesia, and the surgery is performed in a hospital's operating room, it could cost upwards of $6,000 plus $1,000 for each day of stay. Seriously???

The problem is not the actual cost to provide healthcare, the real problem is satisfying the ultra-inflated costs associated with healthcare, because of high administration/management salaries and benefits.

See below as a sample, add it up. And remember anyone just under $100,000 does not have to be disclosed.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2012/hospit12e.html

And you are asking why healthcare is so expensive?! A few chosen ones below, can make your head spin. OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE


Sunnybrook - President/Chief Executive Officer Annual Salary $703,311.18

Sunnybrook - Executive Vice President, Chief Medical Executive Annual Salary $453,800.83

Sunnybrook - Vice President, Strategy/Chief Information Officer Annual Salary $351,166.90

Sunnybrook - Executive Vice President Clinical Annual Salary $398,809.68

Sunnybrook -Vice President, Communications, Stakeholder Relations & Patient Relations Annual Salary $252,357.64

Sunnybrook -Director, Business Development Annual Salary $224,642.82 BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT? Really we need to market and develop a business plan for a hospital. lol

Sunnybrook - Vice President, Human Resources & Organizational Development, Pharmacy Annual Salary $360,565.16



The REAL problem is that public health care is run as a lucrative business. It is unethical. If hospitals were private, and privately funded, fine, do what you want. But when all Canadian taxpayers pay into it, they do so to be provided health care and not to make the greedy rich. Everyone deserves a fair salary, but what is happening is not normal under any circumstances. If the above individuals are in it to get rich they need to work in a private sector where they run higher risks, however in public service salaries need to be capped.

 

[jomz]

Oh and next time you feel sad for nurses when they are threatening the government when negotiating contracts, make sure you sit in front of your TV and provide your support, or better yet get in the picket line with them, because really, a $100K plus a year is near the poverty line and they are really underpaid. :'(

Same goes for the education system, broken beyond repair.

 

[SenoritaBella]

What about those who have paid taxes for decades but have no children, are healthy, and have no relatives to sponsor? Perhaps they need a refund of some kind? It's not possible to have everyone contributing "equally", so what we all should be striving for is some balance but keeping in mind, that too is not easy.
1. Even just for political reasons, the sponsorship of parents and grandparents will always exist. This is a landmine for any political party, so they are always going to act cautiously while still appeasing immigrants because they want your vote.

2. If we start looking at things purely from a "who contributed what" perspective, many of canadian citizens have mothers and grandmothers who never worked a day outside the home. Where do we draw the line? New immigrants are paying into the system now, the children of the immigrants and others will pay for us to retire, and the cycle continues. So it does even out.

3. Parents/Grandparents may not work, but act as caregivers for their grandchildren which effectively puts more money in your pocket. Only Quebec has subsidized daycare($7/day). One of my co-workers spends $1600/month on daycare for two children. She doesn't need to sponsor her parents though b/c they live here. If one can save on that amount a month, why wouldn't they want their parents here?

Our society has reduced everything to numbers(money), it's hard for people to know what's of value. While the gov't is busy asking everyone else to tighten their belt, the senators have free reign to taxpayers money. And true to human nature, we focus on what divides us(canadian vs immigrant) instead of uniting and holding the gov't accountable.

4. EI changes - we have people who have contributed all their lives, never drawn into it for any reason. Yet, with the new changes to EI rules, someone who is laid off is almost punished for wanting to draw on it. I would like to see gov't require welfare recipients to get off it at some point. It shouldn'y be a lifetime gravy train.

 

[Rob_TO]

The Canadian Health Care system should collapse because it is broken, it can't be repaired because it is flawed.

That is a whole other discussion in itself.

Our society has reduced everything to numbers(money),

No, if we reduced everything to numbers than the PGP program would not even exist, period.

In a society that is only driven by money, bringing in people at an average age of 65 with access to our expensive health services, would simply not happen. Also if this was driven by money, PGP program would check the parents age, savings account, chance of employment in Canada, etc... but they don't.

The very fact the PGP program exists shows that Canadians are generous and hospitable people, and open to family reunification and humanitarian causes. But the numbers are a fact of life whether you like it or not, so between closing the program completely or having one where everyone is admitted with no caps and no long wait times... there is a nice middle ground that allows the benefit of having parents move here, while keeping the costs to other taxpayers under control.