Parent Sponsorship - Pros and Cons

[screech339]

There will always be pro and cons for any type of immigration whether it is spousal or parent's sponsorship.

It is a fact that not all sponsored spouses will enter workforce and it is also true that not all parents will be burden to our economy.

Why would you just concentrate on one con? A rational person will weigh both pros n cons and then decide.

We can both list all the pros and cons about PGP. There are both sides. But as much as you want to argue about pros and cons, the strain on the Canada health care is one of the cons, no matter how you tried to turn it into a pro.

The pro is that your parents will get free health care. The con is that everyone else pays for your parents medical care adding more stain to the social system already with the added expensive medical care and longer wait times.

 

[screech339]

Pros:

Parents / grandparents get to be with family.
Free baby sitting services.
Parents / grandparents get free health care.
Parents can invest in a business particularly family business. This pro falls on very small minority of PGP.
Parents / grandparents can get old age pension.

Con:

Added expense of health care through taxes to every taxpayer in Canada, due to parents / grandparents never contributing a dime towards it their entire lives. Even with 10 year employment won't cover the actual cost of medical compared to those who paid 40-50 years into the system. This will cause increase in taxes to maintain / stabilize health care.

Added medical cost to sponsor in prescription bills as they are not covered by health care.

Taxpayers pay for parents / grandparents old age pension.

That's all I can think of.

That's my contribution of the pros and cons.

 

[Rob_TO]

Not everything is about profit and loss in the society.
There are other factors like care, love, emotions, respect and of course money to achieve a flourishing society.

If that's the case, then why not just open up the parents/grandparents program to everyone, take away the cap, and make the applications instantaneous instead of many years? Or even go further and let everyone's brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc, all get instant PRs to Canada? There would be so much care and love here.

Obviously that is not possible, since there is a REAL financial cost associated with each person that is admitted to Canada and the above scenario would result in skyrocketing taxes and our healthcare to be overstressed. So while I agree with the basic good things that parents bring by becoming PRs to Caadan, i'm also REALISTIC when I say that the finances have to be examined since they affect ALL Canadians.

The stats I posted don't lie. Average age of a new PR parent is 65 years old, only 1 in 10 people over age 65 is in the work force today, and people over age 65 represent almost HALF of the entire healthcare costs to Canada today. For each 1 parents that enters Canada, there are MANY Canadians currently working right now that are paying for their healthcare. Please don't be delusional that you think whatever taxes you pay, will cover the lifetime healthcare costs of your parents. Just accept that Canada has a great system to even allow parents here to begin with, but understand that other generous Canadians are helping you to shoulder the real costs of your parents, so have a right to share their views on the topic and even disagree with it if they want. Personally I support the parents program and hope it continues forever, but also understand the economics behind it so also support the caps, qualifying and long processing times that go with it.

 

[janpreet]

If that's the case, then why not just open up the parents/grandparents program to everyone, take away the cap, and make the applications instantaneous instead of many years? Or even go further and let everyone's brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc, all get instant PRs to Canada? There would be so much care and love here.

Obviously that is not possible, since there is a REAL financial cost associated with each person that is admitted to Canada and the above scenario would result in skyrocketing taxes and our healthcare to be overstressed. So while I agree with the basic good things that parents bring by becoming PRs to Caadan, i'm also REALISTIC when I say that the finances have to be examined since they affect ALL Canadians.

The stats I posted don't lie. Average age of a new PR parent is 65 years old, only 1 in 10 people over age 65 is in the work force today, and people over age 65 represent almost HALF of the entire healthcare costs to Canada today. For each 1 parents that enters Canada, there are MANY Canadians currently working right now that are paying for their healthcare. Please don't be delusional that you think whatever taxes you pay, will cover the lifetime healthcare costs of your parents. Just accept that Canada has a great system to even allow parents here to begin with, but understand that other generous Canadians are helping you to shoulder the real costs of your parents, so have a right to share their views on the topic and even disagree with it if they want. Personally I support the parents program and hope it continues forever, but also understand the economics behind it so also support the caps, qualifying and long processing times that go with it.

Problem is you are only concentrating on one aspect of PGP.
I never said open all type of sponsorship but to find a middle ground.
Striking a perfect balance between revenue and other factors is the key. New standard policy does achieve that.

 

[janpreet]

We can both list all the pros and cons about PGP. There are both sides. But as much as you want to argue about pros and cons, the strain on the Canada health care is one of the cons, no matter how you tried to turn it into a pro.

The pro is that your parents will get free health care. The con is that everyone else pays for your parents medical care adding more stain to the social system already with the added expensive medical care and longer wait times.

All the PRs or Citizens put strain on medical system not just PGP applicants.
The strain by PGP applicants is also being offset by other factors.
Can you show me some stats comparing how much strain PGP applicants put vs how much they contribute to the economy?

 

[Rob_TO]

Striking a perfect balance between revenue and other factors is the key. New standard policy does achieve that.

That is exactly what i think also.

The main point we were trying to convey to you, is you are mistaken if you think only YOUR family's taxes will cover the lifetime costs of your parents. To understand the revenue/finance aspect of PGP program, you need to understand that it will be many other working Canadians helping to cover their costs also. This is not a bad thing, but it's just showing the real finances of the program.

 

[Rob_TO]

All the PRs or Citizens put strain on medical system not just PGP applicants.
The strain by PGP applicants is also being offset by other factors.
Can you show me some stats comparing how much strain PGP applicants put vs how much they contribute to the economy?

I've already shown you some basic stats but you don't seem to understand them.

The average age of a PGP PR is 65 yrs old, the age at when people begin to use the MOST healthcare.

The average age of a regular PRs is much lower, so they will work many years in Canada before hitting age 65 and putting the most use on the healthcare system.

Canadian citizens contribute all their working life to taxes while not using the healthcare system much, so by the time they are 65 they have already paid in for around 40 years.

It doesn't take a genius to see that allowing people into Canada starting at their MAXIMUM time of healthcare use, and MINIMAL time of working, needs to be controlled carefully.

 

[janpreet]

I've already shown you some basic stats but you don't seem to understand them.

The average age of a PGP PR is 65 yrs old, the age at when people begin to use the MOST healthcare.

The average age of a regular PRs is much lower, so they will work many years in Canada before hitting age 65 and putting the most use on the healthcare system.

Canadian citizens contribute all their working life to taxes while not using the healthcare system much, so by the time they are 65 they have already paid in for around 40 years.

It doesn't take a genius to see that allowing people into Canada starting at their MAXIMUM time of healthcare use, and MINIMAL time of working, needs to be controlled carefully.

You are talking about old stats while I am discussing the new requirements.
If you believe CIC didn't do their math and actually loosing money on PGP program then your naive.
The new standard requirements for PGP were drawn keeping in mind Canada's public health-care system and other social benefits.
Whoever deemed eligible to apply under new requirements already is best match to our Canadian priorities and they will support the continued development of a solid and flourishing Canada.

 

[screech339]

You are talking about old stats while I am discussing the new requirements.
If you believe CIC didn't do their math and actually loosing money on PGP program then your naive.
The new standard requirements for PGP were drawn keeping in mind Canada's public health-care system and other social benefits.
Whoever deemed eligible to apply under new requirements already is best match to our Canadian priorities and they will support the continued development of a solid and flourishing Canada.

When new stats come out, it will still remain the same regarding PRs. The new PGP rules only allow 5000 per year. Don't forget that there are still thousands of PGP still in process before the 2 year stop. They will affect health care along with the new 5000 cap.

But the mathematics of the New PRs under the new PGP or under the old PGP program, still remain the same. They have not put in enough financial contribution in income tax to cover their actual medical cost when they need it most at their stage of their life compare to those who came in young as PRs and those born in Canada working their whole lives.

Look at it this way. If the everyone who doesn't set aside any retirement money early in their working lives, they will not have enough money to live off of it in retirement. Those that started saving for retirement as soon as they worked, they will have enough money for retirement. Those that don't will not and thus may have to continue working pass their desired retirement age to achieve this.

This concept also applies to Canada health care. Those who contribute their lives in taxes towards Canada health care paid their share by retirement age for medical care in their elder years. Those that get in as PRs in Canada at an advanced age, have not contributed enough to pay their share of medical expenses when they do retire or in medical needs.

 

[janpreet]

When new stats come out, it will still remain the same regarding PRs. The new PGP rules only allow 5000 per year. Don't forget that there are still thousands of PGP still in process before the 2 year stop. They will affect health care along with the new 5000 cap.

But the mathematics of the New PRs under the new PGP or under the old PGP program, still remain the same. They have not put in enough financial contribution in income tax to cover their actual medical cost when they need it most at their stage of their life compare to those who came in young as PRs and those born in Canada working their whole lives.

Look at it this way. If the everyone who doesn't set aside any retirement money early in their working lives, they will not have enough money to live off of it in retirement. Those that started saving for retirement as soon as they worked, they will have enough money for retirement. Those that don't will not and thus may have to continue working pass their desired retirement age to achieve this.

This concept also applies to Canada health care. Those who contribute their lives in taxes towards Canada health care paid their share by retirement age for medical care in their elder years. Those that get in as PRs in Canada at an advanced age, have not contributed enough to pay their share of medical expenses when they do retire or in medical needs.

You keep ignoring the contributions which PGP applicants and sponsor will make to Canadian Economy. That offsets what ever strain PGPs put on Canadian public health care system.

Jason Kenney was very clear when he addressed this specific issue “The redesigned Parent and Grandparent program reunites families faster while respecting Canadian taxpayers and the limited resources for health and social programs.”

I am sorry but I would rather trust him with his maths than you. Obviously he has more data then what you have.

 

[screech339]

You keep ignoring the contributions which PGP applicants and sponsor will make to Canadian Economy. That offsets what ever strain PGPs put on Canadian public health care system.

Jason Kenney was very clear when he addressed this specific issue “The redesigned Parent and Grandparent program reunites families faster while respecting Canadian taxpayers and the limited resources for health and social programs.”

I am sorry but I would rather trust him with his maths than you. Obviously he has more data then what you have.

Really, you trust a politician who will say stuff to get themselves voted back into government. I really would love to see the data he got to support that new PGP rules will never have them hurt health care. Wait until the provincial government where health care responsibility lies and tell everyone that they have to raise provincial tax to cover added health care.

Of course the feds will say it won't affect the resources. The amount of money going to provinces are going to remain the same. The difference will be picked up by provincial government which health care is their mandate.

I see it to believe it that the provincial won't raise taxes to cover health cost.

 

[Rob_TO]

If you believe CIC didn't do their math and actually loosing money on PGP program then your naive.
The new standard requirements for PGP were drawn keeping in mind Canada's public health-care system and other social benefits.

Wow that is such a wrong statement, it boggles the mind. If you really think that the PGP program is profitable or even break-even financially, then obviously you have absolutely no clue, or have done no research at all, into what the real costs are of healthcare in Canada. You seem to just be making statements that have no basis in reality or with no numbers or evidence behind it.

If Canada didn't want to lose money on the PGP program, they would ELIMINATE it completely. The very notion that a program that brings in new PRs at the point in their life where healthcare costs are at a maximum, yet contributions via taxes are at a minimum, and it wouldn't lose money... is just absurd. Try looking at some actual numbers of what healthcare costs are to the average Canadian. It takes many average working Canadians, to pay the healthcare of just 1 elderly person using the healthcare at the national average for their age.

The PGP program is one done for humanitarian and family reunification reasons. The new rules are designed to minimize the impact on our taxes, but lots of the costs will always be covered by other Canadian taxpayers. There is no other way. We do this because we as a country are caring and compassionate, and don't mind paying a bit extra for others to have better lives.

 

[Rob_TO]

Jason Kenney was very clear when he addressed this specific issue “The redesigned Parent and Grandparent program reunites families faster while respecting Canadian taxpayers and the limited resources for health and social programs.”

I am sorry but I would rather trust him with his maths than you. Obviously he has more data then what you have.

Where did he say the net cost to other Canadians was zero?? He just said he respects other taxpayers, and recognizes Canada has limited resources for health programs.
And blindly accepting the vague words of a politician as being the absolute truth? Talk about being naive.

 

[steaky]

due to parents / grandparents never contributing a dime towards it their entire lives.

If so, why the government create sales tax GST? Everyone including tourist (unless they complete some form to get a refund) are contributing even a dime.

 

[screech339]

If so, why the government create sales tax GST? Everyone including tourist (unless they complete some form to get a refund) are contributing even a dime.

Using GST or HST is a poor example. Are you saying that if I added up all the HST and GST over the life I lived in Canada is going to pay for all my medical health needs when I turn 65? That's peanuts in comparison to the provincial income tax that each taxpayer pay in their lifetime. Remember the GST/HST is not 100% revenue to go towards health care expenses. So when you consider a small portion of that goes towards health care, you are talking pennies going to health care for each purchased items per person.

So you're saying that by faithfully going to dollar stores and walmart for cheap prices, the GST/HST is going to cover my medical bills? Well I would understand that argument if the GST/HST rate would go as high as 30% Not 7% provincial sales tax.

Don't forget that ontario added health tax premium to help solve the stress / problem with Ontario providing coverage for health care. It was suppose to be temporary. Hasn't been removed since it has been implemented. What does that tell you about the health care under duress.

Screech339