International students

[kateg]

Yes, When I eventually become PR, I want a better Canada than it is now.

Same for me, when I become a citizen. That's why Canada should focus on skills, not on students. The fact that someone can pass a few classes does not make them the "best of the best".

 

[Hansdza]

Same for me, when I become a citizen. That's why Canada should focus on skills, not on students. The fact that someone can pass a few classes does not make them the "best of the best".

Hahah... this comment is so frigging funny.. My friend, you have to graduate the program not passing "few classes"... What are you trying to say here? are you mocking the quality of Canadian education? This way of thinking is actually the devil that caused "mess" in express entry system. But anyway, whatever you say, the government, fortunately, realized the mistake made by the Idiot immigration minister before.

I DO NOT NEED TO BE A CITIZEN TO CONTRIBUTE TO CANADA

 

[kirtivsingh]

Hahah... this comment is so frigging funny.. My friend, you have to graduate the program not passing "few classes"... What are you trying to say here? are you mocking the quality of Canadian education? This way of thinking is actually the devil that caused "mess" in express entry system. But anyway, whatever you say, the government, fortunately, realized the mistake made by the Idiot immigration minister before.

I DO NOT NEED TO BE A CITIZEN TO CONTRIBUTE TO CANADA

U took it all wrong what he was trying to say, I have done a 2 yr course in Canada. And if it was in my hands i would not give PR to half of my class. They never used to study, i dont know how they got IELTS cleared, They passed by cheating and copying assignments. they dont want a job in their study field. Want to drive trucks and work on cash. How is that helping Canadian Economy and how can they expect to be selected through economic immigration schemes.
what the other guy is trying to say is only because they have cleared a course in Canada does not make them eligible for PR and yes it is one of the very important aspect but not the only one.
Its like if you pass in all subjects and fail in one, you still fail the class.

I hope it clarifies.

 

[RamsayBolton]

I took it all wrong what he was trying to say, I have done a 2 yr course in Canada. And if it was in my hands i would not give PR to half of my class. They never used to study, i dont know how they got IELTS cleared, They passed by cheating and copying assignments. they dont want a job in their study field. Want to drive trucks and work on cash. How is that helping Canadian Economy and how can they expect to be selected through economic immigration schemes.
what the other guy is trying to say is only because they have cleared a course in Canada does not make them eligible for PR and yes it is one of the very important aspect but not the only one.
Its like if you pass in all subjects and fail in one, you still fail the class.

I hope it clarifies.

Well, it's your fault that you chose a bad college to study where everyone can cheat. In my university, there's a grade lower than F for anyone that cheat/plagiarize on assignments or project, you will be failed immediately from the course, and if you cheat on final project or practicum, you are kicked out of the program. Period.

It also doesn't say anywhere that IRCC is going to hand out pr status to EVERY INT'L STUDENTS like ad flyers. Only students with recognized degree and have real job, real work experience are able to apply for PR, IRCC only makes it easier for eligible int'l students to apply because like I said before, these students have been in Canada for at least 4 years with verified degree, verified work experience, verified salary and verified bank account - all documents are straightforward and clear. Therefore, why takes chances with someone from some corrupt countries where everything can be fake or unverifiable? So yeah, your lazy classmates don't stand a chance when they compete with hard working int'l students like us here.

 

[Asivad Anac]

Therefore, why takes chances with someone from some corrupt countries where everything can be fake or unverifiable?

That's the part I disagree with.

IRCC has been working on immigration for a while now and one would think they would've learnt a thing or two about how to verify the authenticity of international experience. Try and avoid generalizing entire nation states as corrupt. People are corrupt and corrupt people are everywhere. It isn't just a developing World problem.

The onus is on IRCC to scrutinize, verify and authenticate documentation and I'm fairly certain that they have enough processes in place to do just that. And they must be constantly updating those processes because they dislike being cheated. By orders of magnitude higher than you dislike corrupt people with fake experiences. What we should do is support IRCC in fighting this menace by reporting any evidence of malpractice that we have observed around us. Because that will eventually drive down immigration fraud and open up more avenues for immigration reform including more opportunities for international students. Also bear in mind that, by your own logic, a majority of international students come from the same 'corrupt' countries. And they may well have already employed fraudulent and unethical means of entering Canada in the first place for their education. Giving such students an opportunity to apply for PR is technically no different from letting a foreign skilled professional into Canada on the basis of their 'fake' experience documentation. If you want to argue that the percentage of 'fake' students with, for instance, fraudulent IELTS scores or non existent supporting funds or shady education credentials is fairly low, that argument can be turned around to claim that the percentage of 'fake' foreign skilled workers is fairly minimal as well. It evens out.

 

[lisizi]

U took it all wrong what he was trying to say, I have done a 2 yr course in Canada. And if it was in my hands i would not give PR to half of my class. They never used to study, i dont know how they got IELTS cleared, They passed by cheating and copying assignments. they dont want a job in their study field. Want to drive trucks and work on cash. How is that helping Canadian Economy and how can they expect to be selected through economic immigration schemes.
what the other guy is trying to say is only because they have cleared a course in Canada does not make them eligible for PR and yes it is one of the very important aspect but not the only one.
Its like if you pass in all subjects and fail in one, you still fail the class.

I hope it clarifies.

I am wondering where you studied.
Plagiarism is something very serious here in Canada. We had a case of plagiarism yesterday and the student is going to face the univ jury and most likely will be kicked out of school.
If you don't study, you don't pass the course. Passing grade is usually 62 or 70 (at my uni) and you need to get a decent GPA to get jobs after graduation (at least 3.0 / 4.0).
My admission GPA was 3.64. I am struggling to keep a 3.3 here in Canada.

 

[dupsy21]

I can't agree more with you Asivad!!

That's the part I disagree with.

IRCC has been working on immigration for a while now and one would think they would've learnt a thing or two about how to verify the authenticity of international experience. Try and avoid generalizing entire nation states as corrupt. People are corrupt and corrupt people are everywhere. It isn't just a developing World problem.

The onus is on IRCC to scrutinize, verify and authenticate documentation and I'm fairly certain that they have enough processes in place to do just that. And they must be constantly updating those processes because they dislike being cheated. By orders of magnitude higher than you dislike corrupt people with fake experiences. What we should do is support IRCC in fighting this menace by reporting any evidence of malpractice that we have observed around us. Because that will eventually drive down immigration fraud and open up more avenues for immigration reform including more opportunities for international students. Also bear in mind that, by your own logic, a majority of international students come from the same 'corrupt' countries. And they may well have already employed fraudulent and unethical means of entering Canada in the first place for their education. Giving such students an opportunity to apply for PR is technically no different from letting a foreign skilled professional into Canada on the basis of their 'fake' experience documentation. If you want to argue that the percentage of 'fake' students with, for instance, fraudulent IELTS scores or non existent supporting funds or shady education credentials is fairly low, that argument can be turned around to claim that the percentage of 'fake' foreign skilled workers is fairly minimal as well. It evens out.

 

[Hansdza]

U took it all wrong what he was trying to say, I have done a 2 yr course in Canada. And if it was in my hands i would not give PR to half of my class. They never used to study, i dont know how they got IELTS cleared, They passed by cheating and copying assignments. they dont want a job in their study field. Want to drive trucks and work on cash. How is that helping Canadian Economy and how can they expect to be selected through economic immigration schemes.
what the other guy is trying to say is only because they have cleared a course in Canada does not make them eligible for PR and yes it is one of the very important aspect but not the only one.
Its like if you pass in all subjects and fail in one, you still fail the class.

I hope it clarifies.

Oh my holy God, are you being serious tho? What kind of "college" is that? I can't believe it. These are the stuffs that came into my mind directly after reading your comment

1. How did they get into this college
2. What is the academic standard in this college. Plagiarism and cheating are unforgivable sins in academic world. At least in my university, they can rip off your degree even after you graduate if they know that you did such thing during your study.
3. What kind of course are you talking about? Is it just one or two subjects short course program? I don't think it's eligible for Express entry or even PGWP
4. Even If this kind of college/university really exists. I think we should inform the government to close it down. It is a shame for Canadian education.

There's got to be a comprehensive way to fine tune this extra points for International student (NOT giving PR card on silver plate to every single one of them). Perhaps, by giving different point based on level of degree, University/college ranks, GPA, I dunno could be many factors.

 

[RamsayBolton]

That's the part I disagree with.

IRCC has been working on immigration for a while now and one would think they would've learnt a thing or two about how to verify the authenticity of international experience. Try and avoid generalizing entire nation states as corrupt. People are corrupt and corrupt people are everywhere. It isn't just a developing World problem.

I'm not only talking about the fake documents but also the very easy to get or achieve work experience. I will quote my previous post here

in the poor and extremely corrupt Asian countries like India, China or Pakistan and my home country, you can get everything you need if you know the right people and you have money in your pocket. It's so cheap to establish a company, hire six or seven employees and give half of them some big titles like system engineer, senior accountants, vp or cfo, coo. Since all the fsw applicants here are required to have least $12k fund in their bank account, so I can safely say that their families are not poor at all but to be middle class at least. Hence, who knows how many of them were working for their family's companies?

To be honest, IRCC needs a rigorous assessment system for claimed job experience from third world countries, same as ECA, because I, myself, come from a third world country, and I don't trust any thing from my country as well.

They will eventually figure it out, same as they figured out how easily people used marriage to get the pr status before, but it will take a very long time for them to implement new changes to fight off fraudulent. It's true that it's not a problem only in third world countries, but it's just far too easier for people to be corrupted and bend the rules to their will in those poor places.

Also bear in mind that, by your own logic, a majority of international students come from the same 'corrupt' countries. And they may well have already employed fraudulent and unethical means of entering Canada in the first place for their education. Giving such students an opportunity to apply for PR is technically no different from letting a foreign skilled professional into Canada on the basis of their 'fake' experience documentation. If you want to argue that the percentage of 'fake' students with, for instance, fraudulent IELTS scores or non existent supporting funds or shady education credentials is fairly low, that argument can be turned around to claim that the percentage of 'fake' foreign skilled workers is fairly minimal as well. It evens out.

Getting a Study Permit vs. getting PR status are very different thing, as getting a study permit means you have to pay a load of money to Canada in order to come here and study - Canada benefits not you, and there is nothing guarantee that you can secure a PR status if you fail to get your degree or cannot find a job. Again, what I'm focusing on most is the unverifiable or incomparable foreign job experience. Yes, there are many talent foreign workers like yourself, but there are also far too many fake ones. On the other hand, it's almost impossible for a CEC applicants to get fake documents here in Canada since everything is strictly monitored and regulated.

 

[dupsy21]

The same way IRCC took chances when you were given student visa.

Therefore, why takes chances with someone from some corrupt countries where everything can be fake or unverifiable? .

Corrupt people are everywhere. As tough as work permit is difficult to get in the UK, people still find their way round it. There are loads of kebab shops that will employ Business Development Managers that are doing nothing. They will sponsor their visa while genuine people will be denied work permit. Few years back, thousands of people living in the UK were involved in Toefl fraud. Many of them had been living in the UK for years. Did that stop them from being corrupt?

I don't know so much about Canada but I can almost be certain there will be international students with fake jobs that would have got their PPR by now.

I am also sure some people that are insinuating that people are using fake documents might have done likewise before and will still do if an opportunity arise.

I totally agree with your cause that you should have a separate route to PPR but stop generalising non-international students.

 

[rajibsam]

I believe no one is opposing international students. The students who have degree from reputed universities should be given preference. These students may not even need extra points as suggested by minister (but its fine even if they get it). These students are already eligible for pnp, hence, dont think it will make much difference. The issue is with students who enter into not so good colleges just for immigration purpose. There are so many such colleges in Canada. So many students go to Niagara College (or similar), even study diploma/certificate courses in Arts, which may be completely different from their bachelor education, just to get 3 year post graduate work permit.

This is not fiction, this route is taken by many students. It would be good to know how many students go to A listed universities like York Uni or Waterloo, etc. and how many students go to colleges like Niagara, Alfa, etc. Is the quality of students in all the colleges/university same? For later type of colleges, only money matters. Foreign skilled workers are any day better than students from these dubious colleges. There is no logic to award them extra points in EE.

Lets see what change would be done to EE, but the change should be made in a way to filter good from bad. This would benefit students who are qualified, skilled workers (who would not be left out for a student who bought PR from backdoor) and Canada (who will get best of the students and workers).

 

[Hansdza]

I believe no one is opposing international students. The students who have degree from reputed universities should be given preference. These students may not even need extra points as suggested by minister (but its fine even if they get it). These students are already eligible for pnp, hence, dont think it will make much difference. The issue is with students who enter into not so good colleges just for immigration purpose. There are so many such colleges in Canada. So many students go to [font=Verdana[color=red]]Niagara College[/color] (or similar)[/font], even study diploma/certificate courses in Arts, which may be completely different from their bachelor education, just to get 3 year post graduate work permit.

This is not fiction, this route is taken by many students. It would be good to know how many students go to A listed universities like York Uni or Waterloo, etc. and how many students go to colleges like Niagara, Alfa, etc[/font]. Is the quality of students in all the colleges/university same? For later type of colleges, only money matters. Foreign skilled workers are any day better than students from these dubious colleges. There is no logic to award them extra points in EE.

Lets see what change would be done to EE, but the change should be made in a way to filter good from bad. This would benefit students who are qualified, skilled workers (who would not be left out for a student who bought PR from backdoor) and Canada (who will get best of the students and workers).

Thank you for your information. This is actually what we need. I hope this message can be conveyed to the minister and so they can start doing investigation to the colleges mentioned above. It is really shameful knowing such facts.

I suggest student graduate from this type of college should be verified more thoroughly for immigration purposes. Or even such colleges should be banned from accepting international students for at least 10 years.

 

[Asivad Anac]

Getting a Study Permit vs. getting PR status are very different thing, as getting a study permit means you have to pay a load of money to Canada in order to come here and study - Canada benefits not you, and there is nothing guarantee that you can secure a PR status if you fail to get your degree or cannot find a job. Again, what I'm focusing on most is the unverifiable or incomparable foreign job experience. Yes, there are many talent foreign workers like yourself, but there are also far too many fake ones. On the other hand, it's almost impossible for a CEC applicants to get fake documents here in Canada since everything is strictly monitored and regulated.

Actually the student benefits from the education and exposure so they do get their money's worth. Every student doesn't get PR though because that's not how the study permit system works - it's not a buy your PR scheme - which also exists as a separate program so anyone keen on spending money to get a sure shot chance at PR would do better off taking that route rather than spending money and time on and after a study permit.

CEC applicant experiences can be faked as well - there are chinks in all armors - LMIA applications have a 70% rejection rate for a reason. But I get your point that it's probably easier to do this faking in some other parts of the World than in Canada.

My point though was that CEC applicants with genuine Canadian experiences can also have skeletons in their closet from the past in much the same way that FSW applicants can have shady work experiences. We're just debating without data on which of these is a bigger problem. The way I see it - these are both problems and they must both be addressed and anyone who is defrauding the system must be apprehended and sent back. That will eventually open the door wider to let the good ones in - be it international student or foreign professionals.

 

[Hansdza]

It would be good to know how many students go to A listed universities like York Uni or Waterloo, etc. and how many students go to colleges like Niagara, Alfa, etc. Is the quality of students in all the colleges/university same?

This is from Canadian Bureau for international education, I would say Colleges students (ALL of them across Canada) is 15% of University students.

http://www.cbie.ca/about-ie/facts-and-figures/

Lets say all college students are "bad apples" (which is impossible) still the majority of international students are "good apples" in all Canadian Universities.

 

[Kumarp]

PLEASE STOP FIGHTING GUYS. PLEASE.

Guys please stop all this nonsense. Please do not generalize a nation based on a few people you saw around you. I graduated out of one of the top 3 Universities in Canada and I can vouch for how terrible the management is. People cheat like crazy (not just the immigrants but Canadians too). If you know your way out of plagiarism you will survive. I worked my a** off with two jobs to pay my tuition and do research and take courses all at once, and at the same time I've seen students working in groups copying assignments and altering them in order to avoid scrutiny. On the other hand, skilled worker category people also use fake job certificates, fake papers to enter Canada.

Like Asivad said, please understand that IRCC is not stupid to accept every fake degree or job experience certificate, they have been doing this for years and are trained to do this.

Why do you guys keep fighting on emphasizing who is the best here? Just keep calm and do your part, stop critisizing others in the forum. Remember we are all going to be a part of this country in some way or the other, so you have no choice but to live in unity. Do not discriminate based on education or skills.

The beauty of this country and it’s people is that they see everyone with the same eye and do not discriminate based on what job you do or how much you make or how skilled you are. I have worked as a food helper in University cafeteria, then as a Cashier in a store, then a Janitor, then a porter in the hospital, to pay my tuition and support my living, but now I am a Computer Scientist. Through all these years I’ve never been looked down by a single Canadian, they have all treated me equally, but there were some people who thought I was a useless janitor and no wonder they were all immigrants from different parts of the world.

Anyway I worked restless and paid off my tuition, graduated with 3.9 GPA and landed in a job the very next day. While, guys who cheated in Univ are currently working in jobs that are no way related to the field or getting fake experience letters here in Canada (Yes, I said here in Canada - that happens too). I was happy that I got my degree and I was not prepared to stay here after graduation, but my job happened like a flash. I didn't even apply for it, I was recognized for my research work and was pulled in the very next day after graduation. So, I applied for my PGWP only after I got the job. Now that I like it so much I wanted to stay in the job for few more years and for which only way is to get PR.

Looking at all the conversations here I feel really bad and am seriously reconsidering my decision of staying back in this country. I fear Canada will become intolerant with people like you moving in. Sad, just sad.