Inquiry Regarding Giving Childbirth In Canada by non residents (TRVs)

[Sherwin]

Greetings Everyone,

I would like to ask and request everyone's honest opinion regarding something that I've been pondering about regarding Childbirth and Citizenship in Canada. If there is anyone out there who is a visa officer or might have first hand knowledge or experience regarding the situation that I am about to present please feel free to interject your opinions, they would be highly appreciated.

Before everything else, I would like to explain that I do understand that this issue has been dealt with and spoken off so many times before. Most of the time the issue has been tackled somewhat negatively due to its nature. May i kindly request that everyone remain objective of the matter, (and to try to keep an open mind) we have no intention of taking advantage of Canada's government social welfare system. Our only intention is to provide the child a better option should he or she choose it in the future. I am posting this question in the hope that knowledgeable individuals may definitively ascertain if it is indeed illegal or legal, or if the plan is plausible at all, otherwise we would not push through with it.

I apologize for the lengthy opening and appreciate your patience in answering our question.

Here is the case:

My wife and I are both (from the Philippines) legally residing in Dubai, United Arab Emirates currently with resident/working visas. My wife is currently 9 weeks pregnant and I was intending to bring her with me to Canada on a Visit/Temporary Resident Visa. I have a distant grandmother and an Aunt who have already expressed their willingness and support to accommodate us in their homes and provide us with a place to stay. My grandmother is in Ontario,Toronto (somewhere around York I think), and my Aunt is in Mississauga.

We both currently have international medical insurance provided by our employers who's blanket coverage includes Canada. Aside from international medical insurance coverage, we have also prepared financial resources amounting to approximately CAD$ 30,000 just in case (God Forbid) the insurance doesn't pan out, or something untoward happens and the hospital and the insurance don't agree upon direct settlement with each other and we end up paying up front first, and reimbursing the total amount of expenses afterwards. On top of this, I have cleaned out and prepared my credit card with a credit limit of CAD$ 15,000. My wife in turn, has also cleaned out her credit cards, all in an effort to prepare for daily and operational expenses once in Canada.

My question now is, if we are able to provide ample supporting documents to prove our financial resources, therefore also proving that we do not have any intention whatsoever to abuse or take advantage of Canada's social welfare/medical system and are more than willing to spend and pay for private hospitalization and the delivery of the child (which includes prenatal/antenatal and postnatal expenses and check-ups). Would the visa officer in Canada, upon our arrival still frown upon her or be inclined to deny her entry when we arrive there on the start of her 6th month (24 weeks)??

My wife's employer/company is allowing her to go on a 5 month paid maternity leave, hence I had this idea. Also please include that we have no intention whatsoever to claim for permanent residency. We are not presently interested in immigrating to Canada, and are happily content where we are presently employed and situated. Besides I am still trying to chase a career that I've always dreamed of that will ultimately lead me back home to the Philippines because it's license to practice is rooted there.

Bottom line; I wanted the child to become a Canadian citizen/passport holder (as a gift to the child) so that in the future when he or she comes of age We would have the option and convenience of sending him or her to college or university there, if the child so chooses.

We have been fortunate and blessed to travel a little around Europe and I realized also, that if the child had a Canadian passport he/she wouldn't have too much trouble traveling the world when he/she grows up. Unlike us (the parents) who would normally be required to apply for a visa.

Like all parents and as a father, I am only hoping the best for my first child and was hoping to give him or her an option/advantage/gift if it was legally possible and without causing undue burden to any government, community, society, or person. If it even comes to it, or if the government requires it, I would actually be willing to sign a waiver stating that my wife and I would be willing to relinquish legibility to apply for a permanent resident visa in the future (period. no other buts). To prove that our sincere concern and interest is solely for the child's benefit.

Thank you for your time and patience, I will be awaiting and looking forward to everyone's replies.

Sincerely,


Sherwin

 

[steaky]

Yes, the child would be Canadian if born in Canada.

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/citizenship-for-child-t153363.0.html

 

[on-hold]

You need to be careful doing this -- there was a case of an Australian couple, in Vancouver, who for some reason ended up giving birth there, and found that their child had a rare problem that wasn't covered by their insurance. Normal travel insurance often doesn't include obstetric complictions. They were unable to travel, had to stay in Vancouver where the infant wasn't covered by provincial insurance, and ended up owing many hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As for border issues, they might crop up, you'd have to check on the policy. Personally, I would travel before 6 months -- also, why Canada? There are probably some European countries that give citizenship based upon birth, though I don't know which ones, and they might be cheaper than Canada, especially if you are in the Middle East. A European passport would have the same benefits, and let them work all through Europe as well (assuming it was an EU country).

I totally understand why you want to do this, my wife travels on a Thai passport, and it is a curse . . .

 

[on-hold]

But your basic premise has no risk at all, if that is what you're asking about. If your child is born in Canada, I believe there is no chance whatsoever that it would not be a Canadian citizen. If I remember correctly, a child was once born in an airplane between London and America, which happened to be over Nova Scotia at the time, and the child received Canadian citizenship for being born in Canadian airspace -- when the mother never put a foot on Canadian soil.

Look that up, though, don't believe everything you read on an Internet forum, especially if written by me.

 

[eileenf]

If it even comes to it, or if the government requires it, I would actually be willing to sign a waiver stating that My wife and I would not be legible to apply for a permanent resident visa (period. no other buts). To prove that our concern and interest is solely for the child's benefit.

This is not a requirement or even an option. Additionally, I want to point out that if your child is a citizen and the parent sponsorship law exists 20 years from now, parental sponsorship would be your child's right, and not yours to sign away. I would discourage you from offering to disavow your and your child's rights.


Birth tourism is legal, but there are significant challenges inherent in pregnancy and labour that you may not anticipate and that may be exacerbated by the uncertainties of travel and the unfamiliar environment. The end of pregnancy is a time when many women feel a deep, instinctive need for security and predictability, so it would be important for your aunt or grandmother to find a reputable health care provider that you would be comfortable with. I would not recommend just showing up at a hospital (unknown location, unknown attendants, unknown situation) while in labour. A labouring woman needs to know on a deep level that she is walking into a safe, calm, welcoming place and not a place where people will view her suspiciously and put undue stress on an incredibly vulnerable moment in her life.

So, if you decide to go forward with it, I would recommend arriving as far ahead of the due as you can so you can establish some familiarity and comfort with Canada and with the health care environment and provider. Arriving earlier would likely make it easier to go through customs without having to explain birth plans as well. Many airlines will refuse to let a woman fly past 32 weeks pregnancy (cut off times vary by airline).

Finally, birth is hard to schedule around. There are a full five weeks where birth is safe and normal (between 37 weeks and 42), so it makes scheduling return plane tickets difficult.

Good luck to you and yours, wherever your child is born.

 

[Sherwin]

You need to be careful doing this -- there was a case of an Australian couple, in Vancouver, who for some reason ended up giving birth there, and found that their child had a rare problem that wasn't covered by their insurance. Normal travel insurance often doesn't include obstetric complictions. They were unable to travel, had to stay in Vancouver where the infant wasn't covered by provincial insurance, and ended up owing many hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As for border issues, they might crop up, you'd have to check on the policy. Personally, I would travel before 6 months --

On Hold,

Is 6 months/24 weeks still too late? when do you think we should go 5months/20weeks? we were setting the last 2 months aside to process the child's documents and passport prior to returning to Dubai after delivery. I heard that it takes around that much time (2 months). Do you have any idea how long it would take to process the baby's passport? my wife only has 5 months paid leave, and we're not sure if we can still stretch it further than that.

I'll take into consideration your caveat regarding possible complications. I believe the insurance still has that covered. We are more concerned like all expecting parents, and praying that there won't be any complications and that everything and the baby will be normal.

 

[Sherwin]

As for border issues, they might crop up, you'd have to check on the policy. Personally, I would travel before 6 months -- also, why Canada? There are probably some European countries that give citizenship based upon birth, though I don't know which ones, and they might be cheaper than Canada, especially if you are in the Middle East. A European passport would have the same benefits, and let them work all through Europe as well (assuming it was an EU country).

I totally understand why you want to do this, my wife travels on a Thai passport, and it is a curse . . .

On-Hold,

I specifically chose Canada due to a few family ties that we have there. If the time should come that we should send the child there for College/University, I would at least have someone to look up or check how my child is doing with his/her studies from time to time. Conversely, he/she would at least have someone or somewhat of a family to run to in an emergency. We unfortunately do not have family or ties in Europe, tempting as it is to send my child there for education. I feel that I would be slacking the leash too far, and leaving my child without any guide whatsoever. I wouldn't want that. We all know how crazy it can get once you step into college or university.

I too agree about the passport.
[/quote]

 

[Sherwin]

Birth tourism is legal,

Eileenf,

Do you think it would be prudent to email the Canadian Embassy and ask them about this matter?

 

[eileenf]

Eileenf,
Do you think it would be prudent to email the Canadian Embassy and ask them about this matter?

I do not believe it would be prudent for you to contact the Canadian embassy. The government does not encourage birth tourism, and in fact the Harper government has said that it would like to amend the Citizenship Act to eliminate birthright citizenship in order to close the birth tourism loophole, so to speak. The embassy will not aid you. They may ignore you, try to dissuade you, or flag you and your wife so that you may have difficulty clearing customs.

You can read a hospital administrator's response to the questions of a prospective birth tourist to a hospital in Toronto: http://healthydebate.ca/2013/02/topic/wait-times-access-to-care/birth-tourism-the-pregnant-patients-most-canadians-doctors-cannot-accept After reading this, I believe that you would likely have to "fly by the seat of your pants" by showing up at a hospital while your wife is in labour. The hospital will not refuse to treat a labouring woman, but it will be hard to get prenatal care, or a regular doctor to sign on, since there are no official procedures or provisions for "birth tourists". It is legal, but it's on the sketchy side of things, and the nurses, doctors and administrators will likely approach you with suspicion. It would perhaps be more understandable if you were here to fulfill another important obligation and it just so happened that your child was born here, as opposed to coming her for the expressed purpose of giving your child Canadian citizenship.

As someone who has given birth, I really can't stress enough how much a woman approaching childbirth will feel strong instincts for safety, "home" and predictability. Trying to give birth "on the fly" may run contrary to these important feelings during a time of profound vulnerability, adding stress and difficulty to a time which is already challenging enough. I wouldn't advise anyone to ignore or treat these instincts lightly.

The logistics may be more challenging in reality than they may seem in the abstract, but of course, it's your and your wife's choice whether the benefits would outweigh the difficulties.

Have you thought of coming to Canada on your own? Perhaps as a student or worker? These would provide paths for you and your family to become PRs and eventually citizens.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Not too scare you but read this http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/03/26/bc-australian-baby-bill.html

That couple's costs went over a million dollars; they are now paying that BC hospital $300/month for the rest of their lives and even that will not pay off their bill. The rest of that cost will be borne by the taxpayers of British Columbia (of which I am one). I don't begrudge them this because they were not birth tourists; it wasn't their choice for the baby to be born in Canada. However, many women come to Canada, give birth and leave without ever paying a single dollar; Canadians then have to pay their costs, which is why most think negatively about birth tourism.

I understand you wanting to give your child more choices in life and I don't judge you for that but you need to understand all of the risks in what you are planning to do. I know you have insurance and your own money but realize that if there are complications, the costs can quickly spiral out of control. Insurance companies are notorious for finding loopholes to not have to pay, especially if it is a high amount. You choosing to have the baby in Canada instead of a country where you have medical coverage might very well be a valid reason to not pay out.

And like eileenf said above, it will probably be difficult to find a doctor to take your wife on as a patient.

 

[Sherwin]

I do not believe it would be prudent for you to contact the Canadian embassy. The government does not encourage birth tourism, and in fact the Harper government has said that it would like to amend the Citizenship Act to eliminate birthright citizenship in order to close the birth tourism loophole, so to speak. The embassy will not aid you. They may ignore you, try to dissuade you, or flag you and your wife so that you may have difficulty clearing customs.

As someone who has given birth, I really can't stress enough how much a woman approaching childbirth will feel strong instincts for safety, "home" and predictability. Trying to give birth "on the fly" may run contrary to these important feelings during a time of profound vulnerability, adding stress and difficulty to a time which is already challenging enough. I wouldn't advise anyone to ignore or treat these instincts lightly.

The logistics may be more challenging in reality than they may seem in the abstract, but of course, it's your and your wife's choice whether the benefits would outweigh the difficulties.

Have you thought of coming to Canada on your own? Perhaps as a student or worker? These would provide paths for you and your family to become PRs and eventually citizens.

Hi Eileenf,

Thanks for the honest heads-up re: "if it was a good idea" to send the Canadian embassy a letter about our case. Its sad that even with honest intentions and the willingness to cover medical expenses that they will still dissuade you to come. (although in some way or another, i still do understand them and their stand against birth tourism)

I have actually thought about going there at some point under a PNP in sasketchewan and have spoken to westcan and siemens transport (both trucking companies there) who were offering employment about a year back. At the moment I'm working for British petroleum here in Dubai, and your thriving trucking industry seems to have a lot of outfits that I can actually get into. The only thing is, I am not entirely sure if I want to jump in the water just yet, due to a career waiting for me back at home. To compound that, I am an only male child, and my father has expressly told me that he eventually wants me to come home to pass on the house that they have painstakingly saved up for the last 30-40 years.

so my case is a bit of a "catch 22" (how can you turn down your dad's offer when he tells you something like that? if you say "no" it'd be like breaking his heart). I was just really hoping that I could get the child Canadian citizenship. in your opinion is 24 weeks still too late? should we try to come in at 20 weeks?

and if we ever do get in, once the child arrives, how long does it take to get all the paperwork done before the child can be issued a passport for travel back to Dubai?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Sherwin]

Not too scare you but read this...

You choosing to have the baby in Canada instead of a country where you have medical coverage might very well be a valid reason to not pay out.

And like eileenf said above, it will probably be difficult to find a doctor to take your wife on as a patient.

Our medical coverage blankets Canada as well. It's not just medical travel insurance, but comprehensive medical insurance. About a year back, i had my ACL reconstructed back at home and didn't have to pay a dime. but your post is making me think twice already. will it still be difficult to find a doctor even if you're covered with medical insurance? or even if you're willing to pay upfront?

 

[amikety]

Our medical coverage blankets Canada as well. It's not just medical travel insurance, but comprehensive medical insurance. About a year back, i had my ACL reconstructed back at home and didn't have to pay a dime. but your post is making me think twice already. will it still be difficult to find a doctor even if you're covered with medical insurance? or even if you're willing to pay upfront?

Many doctors in Canada don't accept private insurance. Before I moved to Canada, I tried to find one. (In the USA, we have a program called "COBRA" which lets us extend our health insurance from work for 6 months and I wanted to use that to have health insurance while I was in Canada.) In the entire city of Calgary, I couldn't find a single doctor who accepted private health insurance.

Also note:

- it's not recommended for newborns to fly on airplanes
- if you don't already have the TRV, you may have trouble getting one since you live in Dubai. Living outside your home country represents weak ties

 

[Sherwin]

Many doctors in Canada don't accept private insurance. Before I moved to Canada, I tried to find one. (In the USA, we have a program called "COBRA" which lets us extend our health insurance from work for 6 months and I wanted to use that to have health insurance while I was in Canada.) In the entire city of Calgary, I couldn't find a single doctor who accepted private health insurance.

Also note:

- it's not recommended for newborns to fly on airplanes
- if you don't already have the TRV, you may have trouble getting one since you live in Dubai. Living outside your home country represents weak ties

thanks for sharing your experience in the US and calgary amikety. oh my my...you are right about that part about newborns and flying on planes! it could damage my child's ears! what was i thinking?!

thanks for that. might have to rethink my plan now... that might be a "no go item"

 

[amikety]

thanks for sharing your experience in the US and calgary amikety. oh my my...you are right about that part about newborns and flying on planes! it could damage my child's ears! what was i thinking?!

thanks for that. might have to rethink my plan now... that might be a "no go item"

I wasn't even thinking of the ears. It's germy - which you should avoid public places with your newborn for the first 3 months. Plus the pressure from the airplane can be dangerous to the skull of a newborn. I'm sure you know that the skulls of babies have 'soft spots' where the skull isn't fully formed yet. People do fly with small babies, of course, but I think it's best to avoid if possible.

If you do decide to go forward with the plan, I would consult with a doctor about when its "okay" to fly with a newborn. If you don't like the answer, consultant several or research different government's health recommendations.