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itsmyid

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I'm sorry but I don't those 2 things are equal morally.
Would I let someone who crossed the border illegally babysit my kids? Absolutely!
Would I let a bank robber in my house? Nope.
But to each their own.
Well I am all for helping real refugees , and I don’t think helping people in need should be pushed back so to process citizenship applications - but there is a difference between real refugees and the people who just want to take advantage of the system, if you just click on links in the asylum forum of this website you will see what a I mean
For example this one
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/i-want-to-relocate-to-canada.570660/
Because it is cheaper to apply for refugee than student visa

Or this
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/need-a-clear-concept-about-citizenship.570768/
With the genius idea of destroying his passport so he can apply for refugee status

And you don’t even need look hard to find those posts
 
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dpenabill

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As to complaints about going off topic: let's be frank, this topic is one of many for whining about how long the process is taking DESPITE the overwhelming evidence that processing times are well within what is to be EXPECTED, especially given the surge in applications which need processing. For anyone who applied after October 11, 2017, other than whimpering narcissistic impatience there is NOTHING much to talk about relative to the timeline UNTIL 2019. I recognize some venting can be therapeutic, but the WLB routine hardly warrants adherence to staying on that topic.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -​

It can be telling how much weight is given the adjective "illegal" depending on who is targeted. Overtime parking is "illegal." Driving 5 km over the speed limit is "illegal." And murder is "illegal." Not everything that is illegal is a crime. Not all crimes are equally bad. Describing the specific manner in which a person seeking refuge as "illegal" illuminates virtually NOTHING about the merits of their case. It does, however, reveal the meanness and incivility of those who knowingly employ this label to unfairly disparage the disadvantaged.

Sure, those who have committed murder or are engaging in fraud in their endeavor to settle in Canada, or other serious crimes along the way, the government needs to, and I am confident it does, pursue interdiction and prosecution and deportation for those individuals.

In contrast, those who are crossing the border on foot, carrying all their worldly possessions in their hands, and do so in a way the biased are all too happy to label "illegally," are promptly interdicted and processed, AS INTENDED, at which time they can LEGALLY make a claim for asylum. And, with some exceptions unfortunately, they can trust Canada to appropriately, reasonably with due process, adjudicate their claim and make a judicious determination. Labeling this "illegal" is no more than a blatant effort to malign, to disproportionately denigrate a class of people who are struggling, most desperately so.

Beyond that, many, many, if not most refugees, come to Canada through well-established procedures, no hint of illegality.

Many, many other FNs manage to find a LEGAL way to come to Canada and then make an asylum claim once they are in Canada. They may have manipulated the rules some, but there is no illegality as such.

Unless there is fraud, but then that is about persons engaging in fraud not about refugees, and most indicators suggest there is far more fraud in the family and skilled worker class of immigration, more than a few of the latter coming from the relatively privileged abroad and gaming the system to buy into Canadian privilege as well. So here too, let's be frank, when someone paints refugee issues as laden with fraud, that is disingenuous. Fraud is fraud. And, again, most signs indicate there is more fraud among other classes of immigration . . . just any casual perusing of IAD decisions about misrepresentation amply illustrates this. Note for example, the crooked consultant in the media recently, more than a thousand of his former clients are targeted for fraud (facing loss of PR status, some facing revocation of citizenship), with HUNDREDS who have already lost status due to fraud. THESE WERE NOT REFUGEES; THESE WERE NOT ASYLUM CASES. They were, however, deliberate efforts to defraud the Canadian immigration system.

The effort to paint endeavors to accommodate and process those applying for asylum in Canada as steeped in "illegals" is simply disgusting defamation.

Otherwise, sure, there are more than a few slipping into Canada and into the general population, largely to stay, most arriving legally but then overstaying. Historically these were referred to, in one fashion or another (actual terms varied), as undocumented migrants. Undocumented migration has been prevalent the world over for a very, very long time. Common to people under extreme pressures. Then a few decades ago the Americans began labeling them "illegals" and this label has migrated into the lexicon of other countries as well, including among some Canadians. BUT make no mistake, this label is a disparaging epithet deliberately intended to sling aspersions. It has a tiny foothold based on the technicalities, because the undocumented migrant is typically involved in some activity which is technically contrary to law, comparable to remodeling one's kitchen without a building permit, so the label "illegal" is not entirely a false smear. Not necessarily a crime. An undocumented Foreign National working "illegally" in Canada, for example, is not committing a crime by doing so. Not even an infraction. It is not as serious as speeding.

This is not to condone engaging in any activity contrary to Canada's immigration laws. Compliance with the law is to be encouraged. But let's not be coy about insinuation-laden labels which disproportionately disparage people and are used precisely for that purpose, not to advance any dialogue about how the immigration system does work or should work, but to slur a class of people, and in this instance to slur those who are in difficult and disadvantaged circumstances . . . and it is mean-spirited derision even in reference to those who do not have asylum claims which will satisfy Canada's requirements and thus will eventually be compelled to leave Canada.
 
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screech339

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nofrills

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Toronto Sun opinion piece - more made up news.

Yes, Merkel is tightening borders in response to an anti-immigrant backlash, but the plan is not approved (yet) by the SPD. Even if it is approved, it will continue to adhere to the refugee convention as it will still be processing the refugees claims.

So Mitch Wolfe's oped is baseless and skews the actual facts. Either way, sharing this has nothing to do with citizenship applications currently in process in Canada and everything to do with demonizing "bonafide" refugees.
 
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screech339

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Toronto Sun opinion piece - more made up news.

Yes, Merkel is tightening borders in response to an anti-immigrant backlash, but the plan is not approved (yet) by the SPD. Even if it is approved, it will continue to adhere to the refugee convention as it will still be processing the refugees claims.

So Mitch Wolfe's oped is baseless and skews the actual facts. Either way, sharing this has nothing to do with citizenship applications currently in process in Canada and everything to do with demonizing "bonafide" refugees.
Yes. It is time to get back on topic.

The discussion was not demonizing "bona fide" refugees but about demonizing "illegal" refugees. Big difference. Only those who truly believe that they are bona fide refugee would take the legal way. Those who take illegal way probably believe they don't have any "real" claim to refugee status. Otherwise why take the illegal way if you believe you are a bona fide refugee. You got nothing to hide, right? Unlike those who dissed their new expensive iphones before crossing illegally (got something to hide that they don't want IRB to know about?)

Funny you didn't talk about France. Yes, Germany will still process the legal refugees per convention, but not necessarily the "illegal" ones.
 
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nofrills

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Yes. It is time to get back on topic.

The discussion was not demonizing "bona fide" refugees but about demonizing "illegal" refugees. Big difference. Only those who truly believe that they are bona fide refugee would take the legal way. Those who take illegal way probably believe they don't have any "real" claim to refugee status. Otherwise why take the illegal way if you believe you are a bona fide refugee. You got nothing to hide, right? Unlike those who dissed their new expensive iphones before crossing illegally (got something to hide that they don't want IRB to know about?)
See dpenabill's point above about legality vs illegality.

Here is why you would take an illegal way: a young man in the Republic of Congo who is outed as homosexual is not going to submit an application via eCAS for PR - he is going to board an illegal vessel and cross the border illegally. Or he may be imprisoned, bashed and killed.

That's why.

Thankfully the percentage of "bonafide" refugees have increased.

Funny you didn't talk about France. Yes, Germany will still process the legal refugees per convention, but not necessarily the "illegal" ones.
No it isn't. I don't have the energy to debunk everything that is written here.

It's funny that we're still talking about refugees given In Process has nothing to do with refugees.
 

jazibkg

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It is funny and cute to see people in Canada or first world countries complain about refugees when is Turkey, Pakistan and Lebanon that host the majority of the world's refugees.
 
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amitdi

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Sorry guys, have to leave this group and drop my title of "150+ days in IP"...I got my test invite exactly after 6 months in IP. Hope everyone of you gets to leave this infamous title soon...

Hopefully, I will clear my test and have short periods of DM and waiting for oath.

 

dpenabill

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It is funny and cute to see people in Canada or first world countries complain about refugees when is Turkey, Pakistan and Lebanon that host the majority of the world's refugees.
I agree with what I think you probably intended. Assuming emphasis on irony. Yes, indeed, you are absolutely right, it is deeply ironic.

That said, allowing perhaps not just the old but the cranky part about being a cranky old man is colouring my views, I have grown deeply wary of approaching manifestations of bigotry and racism diplomatically. There is nothing funny or cute about the use of racially motivated or xenophobic slurs. Make no mistake, using the appellation "illegals" to describe the class of people who are refugees or otherwise seeking asylum is INTENTIONALLY disparaging . . . and for the vast majority of those who are refugees or otherwise seeking asylum, it is a total mis-characterization. Designated refugees are, by definition, NOT in the country illegally. And among those who are in the country pursuing asylum claims, once they have properly made their claim, even if it is ultimately determined to not meet the country's requirements for being granted asylum, they are NOT illegally in the country, regardless the manner or means by which they managed to arrive on the country's soil.

The fact that these people are, for the most part, NOT illegally in the country only illuminates a part of how scurrilous the appellation "illegals" is. The term is also employed to disparage undocumented migrants generally.

Let's be frank, let's be clear, the use of this term, "illegals," to describe people is NOT to deepen our understanding or elevate our conversation about important issues. It is NOT to add historical or sociological context to the discussion or debate. The use of the term "illegals" is INTENTIONALLY used to debase.

The fact that its use has become so wide-spread, so casual, illustrates the extent to which bigotry itself is widespread and all too common.

I fear there is a real Toffler future-shock syndrome surging and there is for sure, no doubt about it, a dramatic rise in xenophobic driven rhetoric AND behavior. While this is most apparent in the rhetoric, not the least of which was the U.S. President's recent remarks about (paraphrasing) how sad it is that Europe's whiteness is being polluted (which has hardly stirred a ripple in response, notwithstanding how utterly, blatantly racist the comment was), and in the apparent escalation of hate/xenophobic driven attacks against real people, it is also evidenced by the wide-spread almost casual use of the appellation "illegals" as an overt, explicitly derisive insult to demean a class of people.

Perhaps the U.S. is leading the way, not only categorizing as "illegal" the mere entry into the country, or staying, without fully complying with documentation requirements, and not only going the further step of nominally designating it an offence (in the same vein as other breaches of regulation constituting infractions or minor "violations"), but elevating it to the level of a criminal offence punishable by incarceration and actually enforcing and prosecuting it as such (to the extent that it was recently, for awhile, employed as such to deliberately separate children from parents, to among other things send-a-message and otherwise constitute a deterrence).

Make no mistake, do not be fooled by how casually and wide-spread the use of this derisive epithet is. Use of the term "illegals" to categorize or label a whole class of people is malicious. It is intended to debase. It is often employed as a diversion, as a way of dismissing or even discarding due consideration for the needs or rights of a whole class of people, characterizing them as essentially NOT deserving an opportunity to make a claim they should be allowed to stay and be a part of our society.

Make no mistake, the use of the term "illegals" is rooted in anti-refugee hostility, and in turn related to anti-immigrant antipathy, and in the latter the nature and extent of racism and bigotry underlying these is revealed, since (in North America particularly) a particular class of immigrants (largely of British or North and Western European descent) is NOT the object of such antagonistic derision.

Otherwise there is NO shortage of irony today. A large percentage of people in North America, perhaps a majority, perhaps even a sizable majority, have progressed well beyond such petty bigotry and xenophobia. In almost all aspects of our sociological and demographic constitution, there is more diversity and more equality and more respect for others, than many of us could have imagined just a couple decades ago (let alone when I was a child and was confused about the "whites only" water fountain I encountered while visiting a city not all that far south in the States). Yet, somehow, the ugly head of bigotry and overt racism has risen to prominence, and now openly occupies some of the most powerful offices in the Western world.

This is NOT the time to normalize this. It is way past the time to trivialize it.

And yeah, this is off topic. But, again, the original subject of this topic has long been way overdone, and there are many other topics where the venting (mostly unfounded whining) goes on unabated.

Which is not to overlook good news:

Sorry guys, have to leave this group and drop my title of "150+ days in IP"...I got my test invite exactly after 6 months in IP. Hope everyone of you gets to leave this infamous title soon...

Hopefully, I will clear my test and have short periods of DM and waiting for oath.
 
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screech339

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You have to be pretty darn naïve to believe that all the refugees illegally crossing into Canada, (including those dissing behind their phones/identities on US side) that can afford to buy a passage to US, carrying nice expensive luggage are actually bona fide refugees.
 
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sophon

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I agree with what I think you probably intended. Assuming emphasis on irony. Yes, indeed, you are absolutely right, it is deeply ironic.

That said, allowing perhaps not just the old but the cranky part about being a cranky old man is colouring my views, I have grown deeply wary of approaching manifestations of bigotry and racism diplomatically. There is nothing funny or cute about the use of racially motivated or xenophobic slurs. Make no mistake, using the appellation "illegals" to describe the class of people who are refugees or otherwise seeking asylum is INTENTIONALLY disparaging . . . and for the vast majority of those who are refugees or otherwise seeking asylum, it is a total mis-characterization. Designated refugees are, by definition, NOT in the country illegally. And among those who are in the country pursuing asylum claims, once they have properly made their claim, even if it is ultimately determined to not meet the country's requirements for being granted asylum, they are NOT illegally in the country, regardless the manner or means by which they managed to arrive on the country's soil.

The fact that these people are, for the most part, NOT illegally in the country only illuminates a part of how scurrilous the appellation "illegals" is. The term is also employed to disparage undocumented migrants generally.
...
This is NOT the time to normalize this. It is way past the time to trivialize it.


:
Thank you for eloquently and elegantly speaking out on this important subject!
 

dpenabill

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Thank you for eloquently and elegantly speaking out on this important subject!
Thank you. More vociferous than elegant I'm sure. (Probably the first time ever anyone has so much as hinted my heavy-handed, wordy and too often verbose prose was elegant . . . cause it ain't. But thank you anyway.)

Recent trends to our south demonstrate that bigotry and xenophobia need to be confronted sooner rather than later.

As a very recent troll post above illustrated, xenophobia and anti-refugee hostility fuels the effort to disparage all refugee and asylum seekers, typically much in the way the American President has denigrated Mexican migrants in the U.S. as rapists, emphasizing the wrongs of a few individuals to disparagingly characterize a whole class of people. Or, as the current Republican Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives put it (in reference to the now American President's other related comments about someone with Mexican heritage), the very "DEFINITION of RACISM."

One important point I am not sure I was clear about is that a person seeking asylum status, making a refugee or protected person claim, DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A BONA FIDE REFUGEE to be LEGAL.

That is what the process is about. They make their claim. That makes their presence in CANADA LEGAL pending the outcome of the claim. No matter how it is they arrived at the border and entered Canada. (This is NOT the U.S., THANKFULLY, where the current government has criminalized mere regulatory breaches precisely for the purpose of demonizing and persecuting asylum seekers).

I do not know how many claims are successful, how many are denied. Does NOT matter. In Canada they are NOT illegals. To refer to them as "illegals" is the same as using other racial epithets to disparage a class of people. It is reprehensible . . . despite the fact it is so common.

As observed before, those who are engaged in fraud should be and generally are the subject of investigations and prosecutions for fraud . . . which as also noted before is far, far more common in the skilled worker and family class immigration stream. The THOUSAND plus targeted for actual fraud, referenced in last month's media stories about the B.C. crooked consultant, were NOT asylum seekers or refugees.

Reminder: Yeah, this is off topic. But, again, the original subject of this topic has long been way overdone, and there are many other topics where the venting (mostly unfounded whining) goes on unabated.
 

itsmyid

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Thank you. More vociferous than elegant I'm sure. (Probably the first time ever anyone has so much as hinted my heavy-handed, wordy and too often verbose prose was elegant . . . cause it ain't. But thank you anyway.)

Recent trends to our south demonstrate that bigotry and xenophobia need to be confronted sooner rather than later.

As a very recent troll post above illustrated, xenophobia and anti-refugee hostility fuels the effort to disparage all refugee and asylum seekers, typically much in the way the American President has denigrated Mexican migrants in the U.S. as rapists, emphasizing the wrongs of a few individuals to disparagingly characterize a whole class of people. Or, as the current Republican Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives put it (in reference to the now American President's other related comments about someone with Mexican heritage), the very "DEFINITION of RACISM."

One important point I am not sure I was clear about is that a person seeking asylum status, making a refugee or protected person claim, DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A BONA FIDE REFUGEE to be LEGAL.

That is what the process is about. They make their claim. That makes their presence in CANADA LEGAL pending the outcome of the claim. No matter how it is they arrived at the border and entered Canada. (This is NOT the U.S., THANKFULLY, where the current government has criminalized mere regulatory breaches precisely for the purpose of demonizing and persecuting asylum seekers).

I do not know how many claims are successful, how many are denied. Does NOT matter. In Canada they are NOT illegals. To refer to them as "illegals" is the same as using other racial epithets to disparage a class of people. It is reprehensible . . . despite the fact it is so common.

As observed before, those who are engaged in fraud should be and generally are the subject of investigations and prosecutions for fraud . . . which as also noted before is far, far more common in the skilled worker and family class immigration stream. The THOUSAND plus targeted for actual fraud, referenced in last month's media stories about the B.C. crooked consultant, were NOT asylum seekers or refugees.

Reminder: Yeah, this is off topic. But, again, the original subject of this topic has long been way overdone, and there are many other topics where the venting (mostly unfounded whining) goes on unabated.
A fraud is a fraud is a fraud, doesn’t matter if it’s fake refugee or fake FSW or fake family reunion, they are the main reason the whole process is taking so long and so many resources are wasted verifying their information, while other applicants suffer from being honest - I find it ridiculous to justify fake refugee claim with fake FSW and fake family sponsorship : just because they do it, it must be ok for us to do it too - do we really want to sink that low?
 
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ZingyDNA

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Yeah I think the term "illegal" can be applied here. I mean if someone is doing what the law says one can't do (entering a country without proper invitation/visa) then that's illegal is by definition. Now the seriousness of this can be up to debate: it's somewhere between jaywalking and murder.