Frustrated!!!PLEASE HELP, Leon or anybody. Conjugal Partnership e-mail.

[Galip]

What are yours and your partner's nationalities Erina?

 

[canadianwoman]

I actually have a lawyer already, and well, he's telling me writing to them and explaining every aspect in detail would solve the problem.

I would try this too, if you really refuse to get married somewhere else. The lawyer cannot be 100% sure it will work. But you have to do something: either do your best to convince the visa officer by this letter, or get married.

On most cases I have seen, the officer sends out a letter indication that "I'm not satisfied with the proofs, etc, etc, thus I'm giving you a last opportunity, etc, etc...". The officer who e-mailed us didn't state such thing. He just simply asked this question, and nothing else.

The email from the visa officer is the same as one of those "I'm not satisfied, so I'm giving you a chance to explain further" letters. He asked this question, so you have to reply somehow. Explaining your reasons further is one way, which may or may not convince him. Getting married somewhere else and then sending proof and a letter stating that you had not considered this before, but after receiving his email realized it was a good option, would probably convince him.

I do not think the email was the last chance for you; if you reply with a letter explaining your reasons more fully, he may then give you another chance if he is not satisfied.

 

[Erina]

What are yours and your partner's nationalities Erina?

I was born in Iran & raised in Canada. He's Iranian.

 

[Erina]

I would try this too, if you really refuse to get married somewhere else. The lawyer cannot be 100% sure it will work. But you have to do something: either do your best to convince the visa officer by this letter, or get married.The email from the visa officer is the same as one of those "I'm not satisfied, so I'm giving you a chance to explain further" letters. He asked this question, so you have to reply somehow. Explaining your reasons further is one way, which may or may not convince him. Getting married somewhere else and then sending proof and a letter stating that you had not considered this before, but after receiving his email realized it was a good option, would probably convince him.

I do not think the email was the last chance for you; if you reply with a letter explaining your reasons more fully, he may then give you another chance if he is not satisfied.

Sorry I'm a bit confused. You said the e-mail they sent me is same as "I'm not satisfied..." letter. But then you said they'll give me another chance if not satisfied with new explanations?

 

[Galip]

I was born in Iran & raised in Canada. He's Iranian.

Can't you get married at the Canadian Embassy in Ankara?

 

[PMM]

Hi

Can't you get married at the Canadian Embassy in Ankara?

No Canadian embassy performs marriages.

 

[canadianwoman]

Sorry I'm a bit confused. You said the e-mail they sent me is same as "I'm not satisfied..." letter. But then you said they'll give me another chance if not satisfied with new explanations?

I don't think it is the final chance for you (but it might be - I would just hope the visa officer would state openly if it is basically the last chance). But the visa officer is expecting you to reply somehow. Doing nothing will probably lead to a refusal. Writing a letter explaining your inability to marry might convince him.

 

[Erina]

I don't think it is the final chance for you (but it might be - I would just hope the visa officer would state openly if it is basically the last chance). But the visa officer is expecting you to reply somehow. Doing nothing will probably lead to a refusal. Writing a letter explaining your inability to marry might convince him.

OK. That gives me some hope. I had been thinking the same. Or maybe the officer just wanted to let me know there is this option available and thought that maybe we didn't know about such option, which off-course we knew, but I didn't mentioned it in my initial cover letter. I have 60 days to reply back, but I'll send them a letter in a week or two. Thanks for everyone's opinion and sympathy. I'll try to keep this posted once they review my letter. Cheers & have a great weekend.

 

[niloogoogooli]

Erina i was just reading your story
one of my friends in the summer got married in turkey
and she is sponsoring her husband
she then gave her husband permission to on her behalf go to iran and do the marriage papers there with their turkish marriage licesnce...it only took two days adn the lady who arranged all of this for them charged them 300 dollars...if u need more info i can ask her and let you know...but you can totally do it in turkey and u dont need your fathers permission you just need witnesses...and then they went to the iranian embassy and she gave her husband "vasighe" (i think that is what they call it)...so it is doable if you do need to get married if worst comes to worse...

OK. That gives me some hope. I had been thinking the same. Or maybe the officer just wanted to let me know there is this option available and thought that maybe we didn't know about such option, which off-course we knew, but I didn't mentioned it in my initial cover letter. I have 60 days to reply back, but I'll send them a letter in a week or two. Thanks for everyone's opinion and sympathy. I'll try to keep this posted once they review my letter. Cheers & have a great weekend.

 

[Erina]

Erina i was just reading your story
one of my friends in the summer got married in turkey
and she is sponsoring her husband
she then gave her husband permission to on her behalf go to iran and do the marriage papers there with their turkish marriage licesnce...it only took two days adn the lady who arranged all of this for them charged them 300 dollars...if u need more info i can ask her and let you know...but you can totally do it in turkey and u dont need your fathers permission you just need witnesses...and then they went to the iranian embassy and she gave her husband "vasighe" (i think that is what they call it)...so it is doable if you do need to get married if worst comes to worse...

Thanks dear Niloo, I'll have to meet my lawyer and see about different possibilities. If sending a letter to them doesn't work then I'm ready to sacrifice all family and financial values and get married in Turkey or elsewhere. I'll surely ask for more info if I need to go to Turkey for marriage. Thanks a lot.

 

[kitchener_inland]

This is really unfair. If they expect conjugal partners to meet in another country that is on either side's own, then why would such category of sponsorship even exist? Same sex couples can also travel abroad to marry, as well as people of certain religions, like Muslims, who are not permitted to marry someone with a different religion. They all can travel to Europe or elsewhere and marry and apply as Spouses. If that's the case, Conjugal Partnership has NO MEANING whatsoever!!!

I would have get married if I could long before they asked me to do so! but I wasn't able to... I had been researching a lot about all these immigration laws and factors before applying and I always knew Conjugal is a challenge!!! But I don't get it! As a Canadian citizen, shouldn't I have the right to marry where I actually live? to marry under the regulations of Canada? That's just so unfair!!!

But thanks for your answers. I try my best to convince them that I'm still unable to marry him due to different factors. But really, I expected more understanding from their side....

Hi, Erina

I have to say I agree with what Guzelyol says. they way the officer sees it is that you DO have alternative to get married, you can easily get the needed paperwork here in Canada for yourself since you are a Canadian then go and get married in Turkey and nobody can prevent you to do so, neither your father or anybody else. I'm not sure whats holding you back to do that since its the easier more straightforward way. I'm not saying it won't work the other way around but it surely wouldn't be easy, since it seems to them you have options!
hope you best of luck, in my opinion if I were you I would just get the needed paper work here in canada and go to turkey to do the ceremony you can always to a better bigger ceremony latter , but you know your situation best and you can decide what you want to do.

 

[computergeek]

They never ask homosexual couples who are not allowed to marry in their own country to go to another country to get married.

Actually, they do now. I know a Filipino same sex couple who had done everything they could to get married and the VO refused to acknowledge their relationship because they hadn't gone elsewhere to get married.

It is very much VO's discretion, which is frustrating.

 

[computergeek]

OK. That gives me some hope. I had been thinking the same. Or maybe the officer just wanted to let me know there is this option available and thought that maybe we didn't know about such option, which off-course we knew, but I didn't mentioned it in my initial cover letter. I have 60 days to reply back, but I'll send them a letter in a week or two. Thanks for everyone's opinion and sympathy. I'll try to keep this posted once they review my letter. Cheers & have a great weekend.

Visa officer's send information like this to be fair - this is a concern for the VO and you need to address it. You've already described some reasons why that option doesn't work well for you, so you need to convince the VO. Conjugal is a very difficult relationship to prove and the manuals discuss this. If you haven't reviewed OP 2 "Family Class" then you should. Section 5.45 is germane here:

5.45. What is a conjugal partner?

This category was created for exceptional circumstances – for foreign national partners of
Canadian or permanent resident sponsors who would ordinarily apply as common-law partners
but for the fact that they have not been able to live together continuously for one year, usually
because of an immigration impediment. In most cases, the foreign partner is also not able to
marry their sponsor and qualify as a spouse. In all other respects, the couple is similar to a
common-law couple or a married couple, i.e., they have been in a bona fide conjugal relationship
for a period of at least one year.

Both marriage and common-law partnership (common-law partnerships may be opposite-sex and
same-sex) are legally recognized in Canada for purposes of federal benefits and obligations
(Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act, June 2000). In order to be eligible for federal
benefits, couples must either be married or meet the definition of common-law partner in each
statute or regulation. IRPA brought CIC’s immigration legislation into conformity with the
Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act.

Because of Supreme Court decisions, the choice not to marry is a constitutionally protected
choice. Thus, CIC cannot require couples to marry in order to immigrate. However, if they are not
married, they must be common-law partners. There is NO provision for fiancé(e)s or “intended
common-law partners” in IRPA. If a Canadian and a foreign national can get married or can live
together and establish a common-law relationship, this is what they are expected to have done
before they submit sponsorship and immigration applications.

Marriage immediately creates a legal relationship recognized for immigration purposes. Commonlaw
partners, however, have to meet the definition, including living together continuously for one
year to have their relationship legally recognized. In the immigration context, there are some
exceptional circumstances where a Canadian is in a conjugal relationship with a foreign national
partner and would ordinarily sponsor that person as a common-law partner, but the two have not
been able to live together continuously for one year, usually because immigration rules prevent
them from long stays in one another’s countries. As well, for these individuals, marriage is usually
not an available option. The conjugal partner category is mainly intended for partners where
neither common-law partner status nor marriage is possible, usually because of marital
status or sexual orientation (both analogous grounds of discrimination under the Charter),
combined with an immigration barrier.

For example, the foreign partner may be married but comes from a country where divorce is not
possible or the Canadian and partner may be in a same-sex relationship. In both cases, the
partners probably will not be able to obtain long-stay visas in order to live together in one
another’s country and meet the cohabitation requirement for common-law partners. Because the
other option – marriage – is not available to these couples, they are permanently separated. This
is unfair and discriminatory. The conjugal partner category provides the ability for a Canadian in
these circumstances to sponsor the foreign national partner. It is not intended to be used to avoid
the usual requirement to be a spouse or common-law partner before immigrating.

The conjugal partner category applies only to the family class and only to a foreign national
sponsored by a Canadian citizen or permanent resident living in Canada. This category does not
apply to the spouse or common-law partner in Canada class as the exception would not be
required in Canada.

Conjugal partners are exempt from meeting the LICO requirements and the excessive medical
demand criteria. There are no conditions attached to their permanent resident visas although
sponsorship is required. As members of the family class, their sponsor has appeal rights.

A conjugal partner is not a common-law partner under Canadian law until the one-year
cohabitation requirement has been met. Applicants should be counselled that they and their
partner will not be considered to be in a common-law relationship for purposes of other federal
benefits and obligations until they have lived together in Canada in a conjugal relationship for at
least one year. The applicant’s Confirmation of Permanent Residence form will not indicate their
marital status as “conjugal partner” since this relationship is not legally recognized in Canada
beyond the IRPA.

Note: A Canadian citizen residing abroad may sponsor a conjugal partner provided that the sponsor and
applicant will be residing together in Canada when the applicant becomes a permanent resident
[R130(2)]. The situations in which this could occur would be rare.

That is the context in which a VO will evaluate your relationship.

The next section is also interesting:

5.46. Can conjugal partners be substitutes for fiancé(e)s?

Conjugal partners are NOT substitutes for fiancé(e)s. CIC decided that it no longer wanted to be
in the business of assessing future relationships or the intention of two individuals to establish and
maintain a conjugal relationship. Thus, there is no fiancé(e) category in the IRPA and Regulations.
If they intend to apply as spouses, Canadians and their foreign national fiancé(e)s are expected
to be married before the immigration process takes place, i.e., the foreign national must be
married to the Canadian sponsor and apply to immigrate as a married spouse.

Fiancé(e)s are individuals who intend to marry and intend to establish a conjugal relationship. In
most cases, they have not yet established a conjugal relationship. They intend to combine their
affairs and become mutually interdependent, but have not yet done so. Even if they have a sexual
relationship, they have not yet achieved the level of mutual interdependence that characterizes a
conjugal relationship although they intend to do so at some point when they marry.

Most traditional fiancé(e)s cannot meet the definition of conjugal partner. They have not merged
their affairs and established the required mutual interdependency. As well, conjugal partners must
have established a sexual relationship, and traditional fiancé(e)s would be unlikely to meet this
criterion.

So, I suspect this is the VO's concern: that you are trying to use this as a fiancee option. Hence the comments about "why don't you just get married in Turkey?"

The next section notes:

In general, people who have made the level of commitment expected in a conjugal relationship
would normally marry or live together. If a foreign national could have married their Canadian
sponsor or lived with them, and chose not to do so, then it is questionable whether they have the
significant degree of commitment characteristic of a conjugal relationship.

This is very useful - it explains how the VO should be evaluating the relationship.

I think the idea of asking you to go to a different country other than Canada or Iran for the marriage is a bit questionable:

The applicant should be able to explain why they have not been able to
cohabit continuously for one year. For example, there may be legal
impediments to a common country of residence. The partners might not
have been able to obtain long-stay visas or immigrant visas for one
another’s countries. If they could have lived together, but chose not to,
then it is reasonable for the officer to question whether the relationship is
a conjugal relationship.

Again, there's pages of material on this very topic in OP 2 (it's on the CIC website). Reading it may be insightful in helping you craft a response.

 

[Erina]

Thank you Computergeek. I had reviewed this before applying... I'm just curious whether the VO's intention by their email means we have to get married as they don't see any marriage barrier or if they're only suggesting this option. I'm not sure if writing a letter to them would work out. But I'm sure apart from not paying attention to our personal/ family/ financial situations, they must consider Human Rights as well!!!! I know so many clown by their fake marriage and all fraud stuff has made them to go harder with such cases, but a little research and review on our backgrounds would tell them that our mere intention is being together and nothing else. We've lived together 5 months a year, for two years, plus vacations we had together abroad in Europe. And I've given them proofs as well. So surely there's not such fiance and "exploring the relationship" matters involved. There is a marriage-like relationship!!! and there's barrier as well!!! I've given them all financial support proofs+ everyday communication + constant visits, etc...

 

[computergeek]

You don't have to convince me that immigration can be arbitrary and capricious - I know that all too well, as I've lived it.

At this point, you're still better off convincing the VO to grant your application, even if it's the most unfair thing ever because it is still the fastest way to what you really want - to live with your spouse.