Family Sponsorship (PGP) - E-petition to the House of Commons - 2023

[steaky]

I recently married a woman from the Philippines. She moved to the UAE and, later, to Hong Kong, to have employment. Employment not available to her in the Philippines. She was abroad for about 12 years. Except for a short period when transitioning from the UAE to Hong Kong, she was never back in her home country for all those years. She sent ALL that she made home to her parents. Worked 7 days a week, unlimited hours per day, and was treated like a slave in the UAE. Her passport taken away, not allowed a phone or to go out unaccompanied. Kong Kong was slightly better. Every Sunday off. So, did her departure for abroad show disregard for her parents? I would expect one who manifests your faulty logic to answer in the affirmative. She left out of LOVE. She could serve them well by working abroad and remitting her earnings. She kept not one peso for herself.

Definitely, more than Sunday off in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, employers are required to grant statutory holidays to foreign domestic helpers (such as your current wife) in accordance to the employer ordinance. I was an employer, so I know.

And also, how many years she worked in Hong Kong? Because under the law, she entitled statutory, annual leaves, sickness allowance and a paid flight ticket (pay by the employer) for vacation to her home country (except during covid when most flights were banned by PH).

 

[canuck78]

Not sure this have anything to do with housing situation if PGP live with children / sponsors or separately in a suite of sponsor's home.. The sponsor wouldn't share the home with strangers otherwise.

There are sponsored parents who do not live with their children. Some have enough funds to purchase or rent on their own because they want their own space, there is no space for them in the child’s home, etc. There are many sponsored parents that apply for subsidized housing so there is an impact on housing although not significant. There is a larger impact on subsidized senior housing because there is a limited and so any applications have an impact.

 

[canuck78]

I haven't mixed up anything ,I know how to take care of my parents,tell me how someone can take care of their parents if they are not physically present with them specially when they are old,have health complications and need your assistance?

I agree with you on the fact that some parents don't want to come here,that's understandable,no one is forcing them to come here if they don't want to,but my point is that should be decided by the parents,not by some unfair law

I understand that when we decided to submit the immigration file to IRCC,we have agreed to leave behind our extended family,but parents shouldn't fall under extended family list,they should be given same priority as someone's spouse/kids,if someone tells to leave behind your spouse/kids in your home country because they haven't contributed to the economy yet/haven't paid any taxes yet/we have housing/healthcare crisis here, therefore you can't bring your spouse/kids,would you agree on that?probably no,hope it makes sense now....

If Canada considered parents as immediate family then they could have been included on the the original immigration application. Most countries do not count parents of adults as immediate family. Family income is what is considered when it comes to immigration and sponsorship so if one spouse isn’t working both spouses are dependent on a family income. That is no uncommon. Spouses tend to share bank accounts but you don’t add your parents to the account as well. In terms of dependent children they are not expected to earn an income until they are adults and fall under their parent’s family income and their taxation. Canada is generous and considers children to be dependent until 22 if not married to give the children a chance to pursue post secondary education before being expected to be independent and able to support themselves and contribute to the tax base. They would still have decades to contribute to the tax bass. Unless you are making millions of taxable income every year you likely won’t be paying enough taxes to cover your parents costs to the Canadian tax system or other benefits. The majority of healthcare spending is typically done in the last 5 years of life so every additional senior does have an impact on the healthcare system. The parents will take up one spot at a GP preventing someone else from being a patient. They also can contribute to the wait list to get into LTC. Before you insist that your mother will be cared for at home you may not be able to. Many have that intention but care needs may exceed what you can provide. Most sponsored parents don’t ever pay taxes even if they have significant savings and will also receive tax credits, other government related to income, OAS/GIS after 10 years, many apply for low many low income senior programs, etc.

You may be able to sponsor your parents in the US but they don’t receive many benefits so the cost to the US is significant less than in Canada. Does your home country provide free public healthcare that has similar benefits to what they would receive in Canada as a senior as well as access to other payments and programs? Have you actually looked at whether parents can legally immigrate with their adult children to your home country? Most countries with decent public healthcare do not allow parent sponsorship because or the cost and demand on the system. If countries so allow parents sponsorship there is usually limited number and often higher fees than Canada. Many of the countries will decent public healthcare also have an ageing population and don’t have excess capacity in their healthcare system. Younger immigrants tend to place smaller demands on the healthcare system and will pay taxes for decades before they’re retire and typically place a higher demand on the healthcare system. Immigration (except for refugees) is used to benefit the country while hopefully benefiting the individual immigrating as well. Canada prioritizes young immigrants because of our ageing population. Allowing people to sponsor their parents and grandparents without a quota would add to our ageing population not help try to counteract the issue.

 

[steaky]

There are sponsored parents who do not live with their children. Some have enough funds to purchase or rent on their own because they want their own space, there is no space for them in the child’s home, etc. There are many sponsored parents that apply for subsidized housing so there is an impact on housing although not significant. There is a larger impact on subsidized senior housing because there is a limited and so any applications have an impact.

But there are also sponsored parents who lives with their children. Like you said, they have enough funds to purchase or rent on their own, but the child's home have enough space for everyone. It's more convenient for the child to care for the parents.

 

[canuck78]

But there are also sponsored parents who lives with their children. Like you said, they have enough funds to purchase or rent on their own, but the child's home have enough space for everyone. It's more convenient for the child to care for the parents.

Pointing out that it is not guaranteed that parents will live with their children. Some do but others do not or may move in or out over time dependent on needs. Some have the funds to pay out of pocket but other apply for programs like senior subsidized housing.

 

[steaky]

I don't know if you had an aneurysm or what, but that's what I wrote. And there's no 'miscalculation;' I just hadn't attempted to list ALL possible factors. Of course PGP contributes less than (some) other factors. But it's not zero.

There's a misunderstanding on your part though: as regards domestic students and overseas citizens (I presume you mean who've chosen to move back) - these are not things the federal government can control directly.

PGP is one that's directly in the government's control; they can just eliminate PGP or limit numbers. They have, of course, been limiting numbers ever since PGP was introduced. And my point is that - unlike the proposal in the subject of this thread, the petition - housing is a factor that militates against drastically increasing the limit or removing it altogether.

I didn't say those things the federal government can control directly. But PGP is not the only one that's directly in the federal government's control (such as the Underused Housing Tax). By the name, it sounds the fed is dealing with the housing crises or not.

 

[Kaibigan]

Definitely, more than Sunday off in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, employers are required to grant statutory holidays to foreign domestic helpers (such as your current wife) in accordance to the employer ordinance. I was an employer, so I know.

And also, how many years she worked in Hong Kong? Because under the law, she entitled statutory, annual leaves and a paid flight ticket (pay by the employer) to vacation to her home country (except during covid when most flights were banned by PH).

She last worked in HK in 2018. Started there in 2012 after leaving UAE. I think she said she got a few of the stats, but difficult to complain if you don't get paid properly. Maybe different now, but foreign domestics were required to live in. Not good to ruffle feathers if living under employer's roof. Easy to see how they can get back at you for complaining. There were certainly no annual paid flights home, or time to go anyway.

I think this article draws a reasonably accurate picture of the reality of the situation:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/maid-hong-kong-protecting-foreign-domestic-workers

The following YouTube video also gives some insight into the lives of Filipino domestic workers in Hong Kong:

Anyway steaky, what you have said about "definitely more days off" does not derogate from my point that women like my wife sacrifice life with family to go abroad and work under less than ideal conditions (can we agree on that?) for the sake of parents and other family members. By no standard is it a bowl of cherries. It's a hardship.

 

[steaky]

She last worked in HK in 2018. Started there in 2012 after leaving UAE. I think she said she got a few of the stats, but difficult to complain if you don't get paid properly. Maybe different now, but foreign domestics were required to live in. Not good to ruffle feathers if living under employer's roof. Easy to see how they can get back at you for complaining. There were certainly no annual paid flights home, or time to go anyway.

I think this article draws a reasonably accurate picture of the reality of the situation:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/maid-hong-kong-protecting-foreign-domestic-workers

The following YouTube video also gives some insight into the lives of Filipino domestic workers in Hong Kong:

Anyway steaky, what you have said about "definitely more days off" does not derogate from my point that women like my wife sacrifice life with family to go abroad and work under less than ideal conditions (can we agree on that?) for the sake of parents and other family members. By no standard is it a bowl of cherries. It's a hardship.

Yes, foreign domestic helper are still required to live in. Mine had her own room. She ruffle her feathers even living under employer's roof. Although it's not not annual, but she got paid flights home or time to go (to Macau for a brief vacation for example).

Too bad I couldn't watch YouTube because of the firewall.

Yes, I understand she sacrifice life with family to go abroad...isn't many foreign workers are like that? In Canada, for example, work permit holders / international students have to write their invitation letters for their loves ones to come here for visit - and the loves ones back home have to apply for TRV but there are no guarantees that their application are successful. It's not ideal but that's life.

Btw, your wife could have sued the employer and take the matter to court for her didn't get paid properly. The employer was lucky to get away.

 

[Kaibigan]

Yes, foreign domestic helper are still required to live in. Mine had her own room. She ruffle her feathers even living under employer's roof. Although it's not not annual, but she got paid flights home or time to go (to Macau for a brief vacation for example).

Too bad I couldn't watch YouTube because of the firewall.

Yes, I understand she sacrifice life with family to go abroad...isn't many foreign workers are like that? In Canada, for example, work permit holders / international students have to write their invitation letters for their loves ones to come here for visit - and the loves ones back home have to apply for TRV but there are no guarantees that their application are successful. It's not ideal but that's life.

Btw, your wife could have sued the employer and take the matter to court for her didn't get paid properly. The employer was lucky to get away.

Much of what you say here reflects what others of us have been saying. For many, moving far from family and long periods of absence are not unusual in many parts of the world. It has nothing to do with not caring for one's family and, in many instances, it's because those moving do care.

I know my wife could have sued the employer and, while I have not asked her, I know that she was one of those Filipino workers who would meet on the streets of Kong Kong every Sunday and, of course they all talk, share experience, advice, etc. No doubt the topic came up. But, don't you think it would create a bit of an awkward situation (if not intolerable), to be living in your employer's home and working for them while prosecuting a lawsuit against them? We had maids living in our home when I lived in Manila and a driver who lived in. I cannot imagine being involved in a court proceeding with any of them, while maintaining a functional employee/employee relationship at home.

My guess is that for many, like my wife, they just put up and shut up. From the little she has said, the UAE was far more difficult. She has never talked about it much. Those who were close to her for the time she was home after she left the UAE said it looked like she had a hard go it. Rode hard and put away wet, you might say. She has told me that, if needed, she could manage to work again in Hong Kong. Says she would never again work in the UAE, come hell or high water.

 

[Kaibigan]

Let me ask you one thing,when(probably in the early 80s/90s) you and your parents immigrated to Canada,Canada had only a few doctors available against thousands of Canadians?did you stop migrating to Canada because of this?weren't you putting extra pressure to Canadian health care system then?did someone advocated the same stop immigration to you/your parents when you immigrated?probably not which is why you are a Canadian immigrant now....

And can you guarantee that health care crisis will be solved totally if they stop parents immigration?they haven't stopped any immigration because of the current healthcare and housing crisis,then why pointing out only a single immigration stream?

And crisis is inevitable sometimes,you just need to learn to live with it....

I was born in Canada. My parents came from Norway at different times. My father was much older. He was in the age 60 bracket when I was born. A bit unusual in many parts of the world, except in the world of Hollywood movie stars fathering kids into their 80s. Kudos to my dad's indomitable Viking spirit!

Early 80s/90s misses the mark by a bit. My dad arrived at Halifax on a CP steamship in December 1926 at age 21. I doubt he was much of a burden on healthcare. I would guess it was a bit different then. My father came with a brother, leaving 7 younger siblings behind. They had replied to ads and accepted a CP Rail offer to come to Canada, free ship passage, in exchange for committing to work for CP for one year. My dad was sent to a place north of Cochrane, Ontario to cut cordwood to fuel the locomotives. My uncle was sent to northern Manitoba to do same. They made a pact to quit after one year, get to Toronto and find each other. A bit difficult in those days since cell service was crappy and Facebook unreliable

They managed to meet up, as agreed. They worked in construction for a time, carrying bricks in a hod and such like. After awhile, my uncle shuffled off to Chicago and stayed there. My dad joined him there for a year and studied at a technological institute (I have his graduation diploma) and returned to Canada. His first trip home to Norway was in 1953. Before that, there was a war in there somewhere and trans-Atlantic flights were not the order of the day much before 1950. Even then, to fly to England from Toronto required a stop at Gander, Newfoundland, to refuel.

And can you guarantee that health care crisis will be solved totally if they stop parents immigration?they haven't stopped any immigration because of the current healthcare and housing crisis,then why pointing out only a single immigration stream?

And crisis is inevitable sometimes,you just need to learn to live with it....

No, of course I cannot guarantee. There is no simple, one-step fix.

Why single out a single stream? Seems sensible to take a hard look at the stream(s) that produce the least benefit to Canada, overall. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that countries usually adopt immigration policies designed to provide some overall long-term benefit to the country. Bringing in skilled labour can be seen as a net benefit. Bringing in labourers can also be of benefit if there is a labour shortage. In general, bringing in younger, willing-to-work and pay taxes people seems to make sense. On a cost/benefit analysis, bringing in people who are up in years, their working lives in the rearview mirror, more likely to require medical services, seems to me to be less of an enhancement to the common weal.

As for the inevitability of crisis, I disagree. Should it not be a hallmark of good governance that our elected officials have wisdom and foresight and an ability to avoid crises? I think it fair to say there are many in Canada at present who believe that what appears as a healthcare and housing crisis could have been avoided by good planning. I think I am in that camp. If you plan to bring in 500,000 immigrants in any year, it would seem to be a course of prudence to have addressed in advance the impact on healthcare and housing and to have things in place, instead of trying to address a problem that was foreseeable and manifested due to a lack of coordinated planning.