Express entry based on LMIA (Not fair to international Grads)

[kateg]

We successfully graduated, have a valid job and 1 yr experience. Doesn't this prove a lot of how we can contribute to the economy in the future.

That's just it. It does prove you can contribute to the economy. What it doesn't prove is that you can contribute to the economy better than another foreigner.

If you're qualified, you get a good score. If you're needed, you get a great score. If you're just an average worker, then you don't, and just like the other average workers, you don't get an ITA.

To a large extent, CIC treats foreign workers like interchangeable cogs. Foreigners are seen as a "necessary evil", one to be minimized. Students aren't Canadian, so why pick an less qualified immigrant over a more qualified one.

This is about what's best for Canada, not about what's easiest on the student, or the most convenient, nor "fair". They have neither need nor desire to be "fair".

 

[Dennia]

If you're just an average worker, then you don't, and just like the other average workers, you don't get an ITA. - What determines an average worker? An international Grad after 3 to 5yrs education gets only a 3yr PGWP. The EE points r based on no.of yrs u have worked,with at least 3yr Canadian experince a candidate will easily make it a point range of 500 to 600,but there will always be an uncertainty in getting an ITA (9th draw good example). And also after 3 yrs, this qualified candidate has to forfeit his job and go back home,since their status expires . They have to later return back to Canada with no job(think abt people frm Asian and European countries) Don't u think this is funny?

That's just it. It does prove you can contribute to the economy. What it doesn't prove is that you can contribute to the economy better than another foreigner.- My only reply to this is, a proven concept(Proven qualified International Grad with a valid job offer and experience) is a better route to take than taking ur chances with a foreigner.

If people can just bypass the FSW rules by taking a year of college in Canada, what's the point in having the FSW points system in the first place? - I totally agree with this statement.

By the same token, I have also seen quite a few students who, quite frankly, don't assimilate well at all. The language barrier in particular made it difficult to work with them, and they avoided English wherever possible. - I can't disagree on this one too,but a small difference between u and me on this, I try to interact more with people like this to learn their culture and also try to better understand their knowledge on stuffs (It kills ur time,but sometime really worth). Some people r really skilled and knowledgeable,just have a setback in knowledge

 

[kateg]

And also after 3 yrs, this qualified candidate has to forfeit his job and go back home,since their status expires . They have to later return back to Canada with no job(think abt people frm Asian and European countries) Don't u think this is funny?

It's inefficient, and that's a reasonable point. If they are going to get an ITA anyway, there's little point in kicking them out beforehand.

My only reply to this is, a proven concept(Proven qualified International Grad with a valid job offer and experience) is a better route to take than taking ur chances with a foreigner.

Also a fair point. There is a risk reduction aspect to it - one that makes sense from Canada's perspective, not just the worker's.

If people can just bypass the FSW rules by taking a year of college in Canada, what's the point in having the FSW points system in the first place? - I totally agree with this statement.

I can't disagree on this one too,but a small difference between u and me on this, I try to interact more with people like this to learn their culture and also try to better understand their knowledge on stuffs (It kills ur time,but sometime really worth). Some people r really skilled and knowledgeable,just have a setback in knowledge

I try to as well. In my case, it's complicated - I have difficulty parsing speech, and end up lip reading to help out. When people have non-standard English pronunciation, it makes it harder for me. When there are multiple people talking (as is the case with group work), it gets harder still.

Fortunately, there is online discussions - when the speech is taken out of it, it's easier to get to know people. Even with a language barrier, you can tell when someone is intelligent - their thought process is logical and methodical. They may pause to think of a word, or to rephrase, but they have things they want to say, and they work to say them. There are indeed people like that at my school.

Unfortunately, there are some really stupid people here too, and that takes into consideration the language barrier. More than just reading comprehension in a foreign language, they don't think. I've had group work with them as well. Some of the programs are very easy here (Douglas is not an overly hard school), and even if they graduate, that doesn't make them qualified. I also have experience with several families that bring over friends from back home and give them jobs - they have employment, but it doesn't speak to their character, their tenacity, or their competitiveness. I don't see how their having taken two semesters and gotten a job from a family member indicates that they are economically competitive.

I wonder if there's some middle ground to be had - perhaps including PGWP in the LMIA application process. Require employers to hire PGWP before getting a LMIA (and after Canadian citizens), then give more points for the work experience. Limit it to NOCs that are needed, perhaps.

Sadly, I don't think there's a perfect answer out there. All the immigration systems I know of have some degree of people gaming them, and letting in people they don't want while excluding some people they do.

 

[Dennia]

I also have experience with several families that bring friends over from back home and give them jobs - they have employment, but it doesn't speak to their character, their tenacity, or their competitiveness.- This is exactly what I mean by faking LMIA (When someone is ready to give them employment,why not LMIA also?)

I don't see how their having taken two semesters and gotten a job from a family member indicates that they are economically competitive.- This has been the way by which several candidates were abusing the PGWP process in the past,but LMIA just makes it much more easier fr these undeserved individuals to be qualified( Now they dont even need any experience to be shown as long as they have a LMIA)

I wonder if there's some middle ground to be had - perhaps including PGWP in the LMIA application process. Require employers to hire PGWP before getting a LMIA (and after Canadian citizens), then give more points for the work experience. Limit it to NOCs that are needed, perhaps. - If CIC restricts EE to NOC's, we will see a big change. People who try to scam will always find a way,but atleast we can expect a certain number of qualified people making use of the system to immigrate

 

[fkl]

Some things i see grossly misunderstood here

a) PGWP holders seem to assume LMIA ones are all new applicants. Practically speaking at least for the first year or so of EE, MAJORITY of the applicants would be those who have been here already on LMIA/LMO (CEC eligibility means they completed at least a year).

This would mean they have integrated well into the Canadian economy.
Have been paying taxes mostly at much higher wages than an average Canadian (this is very true for highly skilled positions, for the relatively low skilled ones, current LMIA rules bar any one being hired on lower wage, so people should stop mentioning things like cheap labor - granted it was true in the earlier process. But at least since early 2014 when LMIA was introduced, it is simply not possible).

b) Giving family or relatives a job and get them LMIA is simply not an option any more. In fact the current mechanism is so hard, time, money consuming along with restrictions that a lot of genuine employers needing genuine skills which are short in Canada cannot hire people from abroad.

In those circumstances those who get LMIAs are way beyond all of this. Plus most of them have gained at least equal or better exposure to Canada in terms of social integration of every sort. They might be older but again they pay higher taxes too.

c) All that being said, i do not completely eliminate the stance that it is not fair with PGWP holders. Again CIC has no interest in being fair. And there are others with whom this situation is even more unfair. I have friends who were hired in LMIA EXEMPT roles. One is a researcher with PhD from UK who is doing post doc here. He has PhD with years of experience and his job was LMIA exempt and he easily met CEC before EE. But because of not having LMIA, even he didn't get 600 points - period. Now this is far more unfair compared to a recent grad.

But here is the real problem. Having a stable job is the most important criteria for CIC viewing current Canadian economy.

Unfortunately there is no real way other than LMIA to validate the genuineness of the job (just like fake degrees, there are fake jobs too - far more common).

If CIC doesn't put this restriction of LMIA and start awarding 600 points to every one who shows a job letter and even reference check, there would be greater abuse than work permits in the past.

Lastly, CIC wants to handle the backlash from Canadian public - "foreigners taking away jobs from Canadians". LMIA is their best justification for a role in which people were hired WHERE NO QUALIFIED Canadians exist for a role. They cannot make such a claim for a job being held by a foreign student even if he is the most suitable candidate for the job.

It is unfortunate - but CIC never promised being FAIR to foreigners. Their priority is their economy and opinions of their citizens.

 

[ButterflyChemist]

I also have experience with several families that bring friends over from back home and give them jobs - they have employment, but it doesn't speak to their character, their tenacity, or their competitiveness.- This is exactly what I mean by faking LMIA (When someone is ready to give them employment,why not LMIA also?)


LMIAs aren't easy to come by and furthermore not everyone who has one is eligible for EE. Remember that for FSW, CEC and FST their are NOC restrictions. Most food service sector employees have to go through PNP for exactly this reason. They do not hold positions in skilled NOCs and so cannot immigrate via EE unless via the PNP route.

I don't see how their having taken two semesters and gotten a job from a family member indicates that they are economically competitive.- This has been the way by which several candidates were abusing the PGWP process in the past,but LMIA just makes it much more easier fr these undeserved individuals to be qualified( Now they dont even need any experience to be shown as long as they have a LMIA)

Again, a LMIA alone is no guarantee. You must meet the requirements for your job etc. As Kateg explained CIC has very strict guidelines for worker permits and even with LMIAs people have been denied work permits. Let's say someone got a LMIA for the position of Senior Coatings Chemist (guess who?). The job advertised requires a degree and 5 years experience. To be issued a work permit you must meet these qualifications along with the other guidelines for entry into Canada etc. Just having the LMIA is no guarantee.

I wonder if there's some middle ground to be had - perhaps including PGWP in the LMIA application process. Require employers to hire PGWP before getting a LMIA (and after Canadian citizens), then give more points for the work experience. Limit it to NOCs that are needed, perhaps. - If CIC restricts EE to NOC's, we will see a big change. People who try to scam will always find a way,but atleast we can expect a certain number of qualified people making use of the system to immigrate


PGWP holders can apply for any job for which they are qualified so if the job is advertised they have all rights to apply. CIC doesn't need to mandate employers to look at PGWP holders, if they apply and are qualified no employer in his or her right mind would then go through the hassle of trying to get a LMIA. The thing of it is that for many skilled positions that require LMIAs you need both education and experience and it is likely that due to time spent in school, PGWP holders generally do not have enough years experience.

 

[GARJ]

I graduated almost 2 years ago from a my program, I don't consider myself an international grad at this point, more of a foreign worker now. I have paid more taxes while being a resident here in Ontario than most of the people in the EE pool. It's not fair to hear that applicants who often times haven't even been to Canada, get invited for PR when I have been contributing to the provincial and federal economy for years. That is were the system is flawed, it should give priority to those already established in Canada.

I am not concerned, I still have lots of time on my PGWP to see how EE fleshes out, and I get more points Sept case of my 2 years at work. I am confident that I'll get invited to apply by the time my status expires next year.

 

[mead]

I graduated almost 2 years ago from a my program, I don't consider myself an international grad at this point, more of a foreign worker now. I have paid more taxes while being a resident here in Ontario than most of the people in the EE pool. It's not fair to hear that applicants who often times haven't even been to Canada, get invited for PR when I have been contributing to the provincial and federal economy for years. That is were the system is flawed, it should give priority to those already established in Canada.

I am not concerned, I still have lots of time on my PGWP to see how EE fleshes out, and I get more points Sept case of my 2 years at work. I am confident that I'll get invited to apply by the time my status expires next year.

its not just the taxes u pay. u have been earning in canada and spending in canada too.

 

[The_Distant_One]

I graduated almost 2 years ago from a my program, I don't consider myself an international grad at this point, more of a foreign worker now. I have paid more taxes while being a resident here in Ontario than most of the people in the EE pool. It's not fair to hear that applicants who often times haven't even been to Canada, get invited for PR when I have been contributing to the provincial and federal economy for years. That is were the system is flawed, it should give priority to those already established in Canada.

I am not concerned, I still have lots of time on my PGWP to see how EE fleshes out, and I get more points Sept case of my 2 years at work. I am confident that I'll get invited to apply by the time my status expires next year.

What you dont understand is how that looks to canafian citizens. They have to be tough on PGWP or otherwise its just seens as a way of buying permanent residency.

You do get treated better than 95% of oversease candidates because you get the work vosa for three years which in turn allows you more points every year.

I bet in my 8 months of being here my wife and i have paid alot more in tax than you and am very well established but because our IEC visas are onlyfor a year we get no experience points and subsequently head home in three weeks Im not bitter though because like everyone it was a risk we took.

 

[mead]

What you dont understand is how that looks to canafian citizens. They have to be tough on PGWP or otherwise its just seens as a way of buying permanent residency.

You do get treated better than 95% of oversease candidates because you get the work vosa for three years which in turn allows you more points every year.

I bet in my 8 months of being here my wife and i have paid alot more in tax than you and am very well established but because our IEC visas are onlyfor a year we get no experience points and subsequently head home in three weeks Im not bitter though because like everyone it was a risk we took.

yes thats exactly the point for the conservative government to show canadians that they r actually doing this for their benefit. which in long term may not be good. so express entry system is created to get votes not actually improve immigration. on paper it looks very good for canadian citizen but it may do more harm than good. if u listen to Chris Alexander he always dodges tough questions and just peddles that EE has shown great progress.

 

[mead]

look at canadian supply chain, see the infrastructure its crumbling. see the consumer goods prices.
canada needs labor and this EE is going to hamper growth as canadian employers may not find good labor. canada's population is 30 mil as compared to US 300 mil roughly. canadian population is aging .
putting everyone in one bucket is a mistake. also automated system is a mistake too there should be some human element and some exceptions should be made.

 

[marcus66504]

Secondly, if you are going to argue a point, argue it but leave people's character out of it.

For the main topic of this post, that's not possible.

If they have to leave people's character out of it, there's nothing left. They have no real argument here. What they have is the same tired crybaby whine we've heard for the last few months: "I deserve PR because I studied here."

Like I've said in another post, this will go on for a while so long as there are people who know about what was before Express Entry. When a new wave of candidates rolls around, who don't know what was before Express Entry, this crying and whining will die out.

 

[mead]

For the main topic of this post, that's not possible.

If they have to leave people's character out of it, there's nothing left. They have no real argument here. What they have is the same tired crybaby whine we've heard for the last few months: "I deserve PR because I studied here."

Like I've said in another post, this will go on for a while so long as there are people who know about what was before Express Entry. When a new wave of candidates rolls around, who don't know what was before Express Entry, this crying and whining will die out.

yes and people will not spend so much on canadian education too. I am guessing ur one of those guys who did not spend nor did u invest years of ur life in hopes for canadian PR as it was easy before. Hence u think u deserve PR without spending or investing in ur future. U think u have experience ur better than new out of college graduates. Ur one of those who does not have compassion for people who have spent so much and some have so much loan that their parents may lose their house if they come back to home country.

 

[marcus66504]

yes and people will not spend so much on canadian education too.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, that foreign student interest in Canada will drop, they you're way wrong.

This has been covered in other posts and is getting repetitive too. Only in Canada do foreign students whine about not getting upfront permanent residence. There are no special PR options for foreign students in the US, and the sky hasn't exactly fallen. Students still flock to the US in record numbers.

I am guessing ur one of those guys who did not spend nor did u invest years of ur life in hopes for canadian PR as it was easy before.

Hope is one thing. Expectation and self-entitlement are quite another. You can hope the law will change. That's reasonable. Expectation that you'll get up front PR for no basis other than having studied here, that's delusion.

Hence u think u deserve PR without spending or investing in ur future.

I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said: the money you invested was for education, not PR.

I have dared many people to show me some document from the Government of Canada that promises direct PR status for anyone who's paid tuition money to a Canadian college. So far, nobody's been able to produce any such document.

Ur one of those who does not have compassion for people who have spent so much and some have so much loan that their parents may lose their house if they come back to home country.

You're right. I have zero compassion for those who try to tell us that tuition money is PR-status-purchase money. It does not pass the laughing test.

I don't think you should venture to guess my qualifications or what I think of new grads because you're way off. I don't compare myself to anyone, but I can tell you what I would have done: I would never have let my parents take out loans for my tuition by telling them it's for PR.

 

[mf4361]

I had to concur that overwhelmingly heavy tilt towards LMIA is inducing crooked employers and consultants to abuse the potential-immigrant using the system.