Entering Canada with PRTD RC1(on H&C grounds)

[asaeed100]

You still seem to believe that there is no substantive difference, or only insignificant ones, between different 'codings' - and that one without the H&C coding is still 'effectively' on H&C grounds.

I strongly suggest you speak to whatever legal counsel you have about this - whatever you think about the difference, what really matters is how IRCC (and laws/regs) see it.

no i didnt say that. i merely suggested to check out similar and recent cases where a person applied for PRTD on H^C grounds. got R1. applied for PRC with H&C reasons, intermediately and triggered a report and a RO instead. OP10 manual is clear on the difference . PRTD / R1 means you are in the green zone. i think you are confusing the PRC application process with PRTD process. the forms released in june 2022 is the same.for both PRTD and PRC - (unlike before). question that remains to be answered is , why would they let someone back in and go through the all the issues of not having a PRC for 2 years. or kick them out if they applied for it. that would be against all their stance for H&C.

 

[armoured]

no i didnt say that. i merely suggested to check out similar and recent cases where a person applied for PRTD on H^C grounds. got R1. applied for PRC with H&C reasons, intermediately and triggered a report and a RO instead.

By all means check with others, but also check with counsel. I'd just warn, IRCC is not always consistent on their treatment of these things - or someone having no problems does not mean it will always be the same in other cases (because, apart from other reasons, circumstances actually differ from case to case).

OP10 manual is clear on the difference . PRTD / R1 means you are in the green zone.

Could you provide the reference and page number that you're referring to?

i think you are confusing the PRC application process with PRTD process. the forms released in june 2022 is the same.for both PRTD and PRC - (unlike before). question that remains to be answered is , why would they let someone back in and go through the all the issues of not having a PRC for 2 years. or kick them out if they applied for it. that would be against all their stance for H&C.

I disagree with your last sentence - because it's not been demonstrated that any lenience provided was for H&C reasons, since did not get RC-1 coded (you repeat based on the same underlying assumption).

As for the rest of this: we could restate the same point based on just 'lenience' from CBSA officers at the border, why would they do this? And yet they do, despite the many issues with legal residents not having PRCs for years.

I'm not saying it's either intentional, or a good idea, nor speculating as to why - just noting that it does actually happen.

[Side note that this thread is a bit confused because there are multiple things going on, from you referring to your daughter leaving, applying for a PR card from abroad, etc., so it's possible some points are 'misthreaded' because of different possible scenarios.]

Anyway, good luck, and several of these are still points you should discuss with legal counsel.

 

[asaeed100]

By all means check with others, but also check with counsel. I'd just warn, IRCC is not always consistent on their treatment of these things - or someone having no problems does not mean it will always be the same in other cases (because, apart from other reasons, circumstances actually differ from case to case).



Could you provide the reference and page number that you're referring to?



I disagree with your last sentence - because it's not been demonstrated that any lenience provided was for H&C reasons, since did not get RC-1 coded (you repeat based on the same underlying assumption).

As for the rest of this: we could restate the same point based on just 'lenience' from CBSA officers at the border, why would they do this? And yet they do, despite the many issues with legal residents not having PRCs for years.

I'm not saying it's either intentional, or a good idea, nor speculating as to why - just noting that it does actually happen.

[Side note that this thread is a bit confused because there are multiple things going on, from you referring to your daughter leaving, applying for a PR card from abroad, etc., so it's possible some points are 'misthreaded' because of different possible scenarios.]

Anyway, good luck, and several of these are still points you should discuss with legal counsel.

yes agreed. let us not complicate further with ifs and buts. i understand the situation and would surely seek legal advise

 

[dishadhawan]

No personal experience.

Probability: no problem.

This should go fairly smoothly. Not much differently than for any other PR TD. Both the regular PR TD and one issued on H&C grounds (coded RC-1) show that there has been a Residency Obligation determination made resulting in a favourable decision and the issuance of the PR TD. Moreover, the fact of the PR TD should pop right up on any screening officer's screen. Likely to go as smoothly as for a PR with a valid PR card, and perhaps more so than one arriving after a lengthy absence.

For extra insurance (probably not at all necessary), you could be prepared to restate the basics of your H&C case, and have IN YOUR HANDS (not baggage) any supporting documents, if such documents were important to the H&C case.

From the timeline topic (but off-topic there):



I have not used the form.

It is nonetheless straightforward. In response to item 3.5 you check the box for "PRTD," and then in the box for 3.6 you provide the details. Add additional documents if necessary.

Yeah, 3.6 literally refers to having answered "yes" to any of the preceding section 3 questions, but checking the box for "PRTD" is in effect answering "yes, a PRTD," so the box for 3.6 is where you refer to and provide details about getting your PRTD.

I am not certain how much detail is necessary; this was just added to the new version for a PR card application, just last month. My sense is just the basics are enough, date of application, date issued, date used, reference it being coded RC-1 for H&C reasons, and attach a copy. Here too, the official reviewing your PR card application will readily see, in your GCMS records, the history and related information regarding the PR TD. (IRCC commonly asks PRs for information that IRCC already has.)

Assuming the "other" query is in regards to item 5.5 when you have checked "other" in the column for "Reason for absence," what anyone else put there would not illuminate what your reason was for the absence. Obviously, the reason for a person's absence is personal to them.

Just honestly describe why you were abroad during the referenced absence. Since you have already received a PR TD based on H&C reasons (assuming it is coded RC-1, and only if it is coded RC-1), no need to go into much detail or worry about making an explanation that justifies the time abroad, although of course basically it will be (or at least should be) consistent with whatever information you included in the application for the PR TD.

For item 5.7 it should be OK to reference the PR TD again and very briefly restate the H&C reasons made in your PR TD application. The extent to which you feel the need to restate your H&C case is largely a personal judgment call. Probably a good idea to briefly state some information regarding establishing yourself in Canada.

Reminder: these applications are not ordinarily denied on the basis of not complying with the RO (as long as you are staying in Canada). So if IRCC has an issue in regards to your H&C reasons, worst case scenario is that the 44(1) Report procedure is followed, during which you would have another opportunity to present your H&C case, more fully if need be.

Note, this is again assuming the PR TD is in fact coded RC-1.

It might be prudent to NOT make the application immediately after arriving in Canada, but wait until you are settled into a personal long term residence. This is mostly about reducing the risk of the application being subject to lengthy non-routine processing. If you have been in Canada for at least a while and long enough to get established in a residence, and especially employment, that tends to diminish concerns that might trigger non-routine processing. That is, waiting a little longer to make the application can help to actually get the PR card sooner.

Extra Note: be cautious about travel abroad . . . even if you are issued and delivered a new PR card. In some ways the favourable H&C decision is similar to restarting the RO clock, but NOT entirely. Short trips, especially those made AFTER getting well settled here, should not cause any issues. But extended absences or a pattern of absences indicating your "home" is elsewhere than in Canada, can constitute a change in circumstances which leads to a new RO compliance examination, one based on how many days you have been in Canada within the previous five years as of that date . . . again, even if you have a new PR card.

Hey can you tell me what happens to the SIN once you are back on PRTD grounds ? I tried to enter my old one on OSAP and it said invalid. I went to service Canada and the person just said they can’t look up anything till I have a unexpired pr card ..what does this mean

 

[dpenabill]

Hey can you tell me what happens to the SIN once you are back on PRTD grounds ? I tried to enter my old one on OSAP and it said invalid. I went to service Canada and the person just said they can’t look up anything till I have a unexpired pr card ..what does this mean

SIN is managed entirely separate from immigration. Others should be more familiar than I am with how to resolve SIN issues.

I understand that Service Canada requires a valid PR card to establish a SIN or to reactivate one that has gone dormant. Again, there are others here more familiar with these issues than I am. That said, my first attempt to find a useful resource for resolving this would be to consult with a certified accountant.

 

[canuck78]

Hey can you tell me what happens to the SIN once you are back on PRTD grounds ? I tried to enter my old one on OSAP and it said invalid. I went to service Canada and the person just said they can’t look up anything till I have a unexpired pr card ..what does this mean

Assume your SIN# is on hold due to inactivity. The big hurdle is that you need a valid PR card to reactivate it. If you received PRTD with code RC1 you can apply for a new PR card. Unfortunately it’s unlikely to arrive before September so if you are trying to qualify for OSAP for this school year that is unlikely to be possible.

 

[canuck78]

The referenced comments warrant further pushback.



Probabilities and percentages do not illuminate much at all in regards to these situations.

I would note that what is actually "rare" is that a PR card application relying on H&C considerations is denied (in fact, it is very rare for any PR card application to be denied for a breach of the RO unless the PR is outside Canada), and that it is probably (noting we do not know the statistics, not close) rare for the 44(1) Report procedure to be followed resulting in the loss of PR status for a PR who makes a PR card application based on credible H&C reasons . . . so long as the PR is staying in Canada.

For a PR who was issued a PR TD and who comes to stay in Canada using that PR TD, the odds are most likely rather good a PR card application will NOT trigger the 44(1) Report process (again, so long as they STAY in Canada), but result in being approved and issued a new PR card. As discussed, if the PR TD was ["not" removed in edit] coded RC-1 that would be virtually risk-free, but even if it was coded otherwise, the fact the PR was given a RO compliance pass by a visa office, when a legal presumption the PR does not have PR status applies, is a good signal how it will go for a PR card application -- just not nearly the assurance of a RC-1 coded TD.

The processing timeline is an issue, and as discussed here the potential difficulties of living in Canada without a PR card when a PR is returning to Canada after an absence for many years.

And it is worth noting and emphasizing that the nature and strength of the PR's H&C case can make a big difference in the processing time.

Leading to this:



Perhaps. But if this is so, that's a very good signal for the PR who was issued such a PR TD. Again, that was issued in a procedure where there was a presumption in law the individual was not a PR. In addition to no longer being burdened by a need to rebut and overcome that presumption, once in Canada the PR's presence in Canada is an additional positive factor in the H&C case. Again, as long as the PR is then STAYING in Canada, it is fairly easy to map the trajectory of how this goes . . . the main question going back to how long it takes, and the difficulty of living in Canada in the meantime.

As onerous as the difficulties encountered can be, and they should not be underestimated, the impact varies widely and depends on the individual's own personal situation.

And to be clear, a PR can legally work in Canada.



A PR absolutely does NOT need a PR card "to work" in Canada.

If the PR does not yet have a SIN, that can pose a big hurdle to actually finding employment but it does NOT mean the PR cannot work. This is, of course, related to the broader subject of navigating particular difficulties, like getting a SIN, or health care coverage, or enrolling in Canadian schools. As I noted:

To the extent there are better ways to navigate those things, I will leave that subject to others; I do not know much about that side of things, other than recognizing the fact that this is indeed a real problem for PRs returning to Canada after lengthy absences.​

But I know enough to recognize when the problems are being overstated. There is a huge difference between asserting a person will have NO access to healthcare versus the real situation, in which it will be difficult to obtain health care insurance coverage. Here too, personal circumstances vary, and so the impact will vary. For a young person without significant pre-existing health problems, pay-as-you-go health care on a more or less walk-in basis may be quite adequate (in fact, for a period of time prior to getting PR I did that in Canada for years as an older person, taking some risks of encountering more serious health issues, but finding the walk-in care, emergency room services, diagnostics, and even in-hospital surgery services on one occasion, reasonably accessible for a cost less than returning to my home country to get that care).

OVERALL: I do not attempt to offer much information about how to better navigate the difficulties encountered, but for many, many PRs those difficulties are manageable; they are troublesome but not insurmountable. I expect and hope others, either in the settlement discussion topics here in this forum, or in other forums, or in local community-based resources, can offer more information, guidance, or even assistance in navigating this.

The father is the one stating about lack of access to

i understand leaving canada without having a PR card in hand carries significant risk. my question was trying to determine if one can apply for PRC via the portal in advance in order to cut short the waiting period. once the card is mailed or asked to be picked up, a person with a valid PRTD could plan to travel and make the most use of the 6month validity. but as someone suggested, that may be considered as misrepresentation or even risk denial of the PRC app - as they might determine that the person is outside of canada.

having said that, and for everyones knowledge one of my daughters got her PRTD with RC1 (removed as minor). she applied for PRC and received it in the mail after 2 months. my second daugher however with similar case (prtd app with H&C ground) got R-1. PRTD with R1 means, you meet the RO. whether it is mistake or not. i am not quite sure. Her PRC application would surely be on H&C grounds. now to wait for 2 years to do that or not, is something we need to consider. we might check in with couple of lawyers to know for sure. thanks to @dpenabill and @armoured for their insights.

We have seen tightening of rules when it comes to PRTDs based on minors being removed as a child over the years. 5 years ago it was easy to get approval for children under their mId 20s to get approved for PRTDs based on G&C which is no longer the case. I also believe that your child is still a minor and may be wanting to return to finish high school which may also result in some concern that your child is not actually intentending to return to Canada permanently which could have resulted in the PRTD with R1. The age of your children have not been specified and play an important role in approval. Whether they have legal guardians in Canada may also play a role in approval.

 

[canuck78]

The referenced comments warrant further pushback.



Probabilities and percentages do not illuminate much at all in regards to these situations.

I would note that what is actually "rare" is that a PR card application relying on H&C considerations is denied (in fact, it is very rare for any PR card application to be denied for a breach of the RO unless the PR is outside Canada), and that it is probably (noting we do not know the statistics, not close) rare for the 44(1) Report procedure to be followed resulting in the loss of PR status for a PR who makes a PR card application based on credible H&C reasons . . . so long as the PR is staying in Canada.

For a PR who was issued a PR TD and who comes to stay in Canada using that PR TD, the odds are most likely rather good a PR card application will NOT trigger the 44(1) Report process (again, so long as they STAY in Canada), but result in being approved and issued a new PR card. As discussed, if the PR TD was ["not" removed in edit] coded RC-1 that would be virtually risk-free, but even if it was coded otherwise, the fact the PR was given a RO compliance pass by a visa office, when a legal presumption the PR does not have PR status applies, is a good signal how it will go for a PR card application -- just not nearly the assurance of a RC-1 coded TD.

The processing timeline is an issue, and as discussed here the potential difficulties of living in Canada without a PR card when a PR is returning to Canada after an absence for many years.

And it is worth noting and emphasizing that the nature and strength of the PR's H&C case can make a big difference in the processing time.

Leading to this:



Perhaps. But if this is so, that's a very good signal for the PR who was issued such a PR TD. Again, that was issued in a procedure where there was a presumption in law the individual was not a PR. In addition to no longer being burdened by a need to rebut and overcome that presumption, once in Canada the PR's presence in Canada is an additional positive factor in the H&C case. Again, as long as the PR is then STAYING in Canada, it is fairly easy to map the trajectory of how this goes . . . the main question going back to how long it takes, and the difficulty of living in Canada in the meantime.

As onerous as the difficulties encountered can be, and they should not be underestimated, the impact varies widely and depends on the individual's own personal situation.

And to be clear, a PR can legally work in Canada.



A PR absolutely does NOT need a PR card "to work" in Canada.

If the PR does not yet have a SIN, that can pose a big hurdle to actually finding employment but it does NOT mean the PR cannot work. This is, of course, related to the broader subject of navigating particular difficulties, like getting a SIN, or health care coverage, or enrolling in Canadian schools. As I noted:

To the extent there are better ways to navigate those things, I will leave that subject to others; I do not know much about that side of things, other than recognizing the fact that this is indeed a real problem for PRs returning to Canada after lengthy absences.​

But I know enough to recognize when the problems are being overstated. There is a huge difference between asserting a person will have NO access to healthcare versus the real situation, in which it will be difficult to obtain health care insurance coverage. Here too, personal circumstances vary, and so the impact will vary. For a young person without significant pre-existing health problems, pay-as-you-go health care on a more or less walk-in basis may be quite adequate (in fact, for a period of time prior to getting PR I did that in Canada for years as an older person, taking some risks of encountering more serious health issues, but finding the walk-in care, emergency room services, diagnostics, and even in-hospital surgery services on one occasion, reasonably accessible for a cost less than returning to my home country to get that care).

OVERALL: I do not attempt to offer much information about how to better navigate the difficulties encountered, but for many, many PRs those difficulties are manageable; they are troublesome but not insurmountable. I expect and hope others, either in the settlement discussion topics here in this forum, or in other forums, or in local community-based resources, can offer more information, guidance, or even assistance in navigating this.

The father is the one who brought up the inability to access things like healthcare, post secondary education, etc. so I assume they have looked into the provincial rules. We have seen other cases where a PR card is required to reactivate a SIN# that is on hold. Yes legally you are entitled to work as a PR but with a sIN# that is on hold you can run into issues with your employer, getting OSAP, etc. If CRA contacts an employer saying that their empployees SIN# is on hold most employers will not be comfortable keeping the employees on staff unless they can get the hold removed. Seeking legal counsel to solve the issue or waiting until you have a valid PR card can present serious delays in studying, working, etc.