Entering Canada with PRTD RC1(on H&C grounds)

[armoured]

one cannot do a lot of things without having a valid pr card.

What specifically? So far, you've only stated travel.

i know this for fact that since her older sister appled right away for PRC and received it within weeks - that was though a paper app.

Was hers coded with the H&C code? If so, the cases are different. (BTW, how old is this one, the one that just recently arrived?)

nonetheless it does not makes sense fpr them to approv prtd and then not let someone have PR for a 2.5 yrs..

It kind of could, if you think about it - if they believe there is no intent shown to reside in Canada but just to retain PR status.

applying for PRC through the portal in advance to cut short the watiing peiod. so that once she lands the card would be ready for pick up or delivery. this opton is still new and seems like a two setp process. ie. first they let you apply online, once it is approved they ask you to send in your photo and confirm you address (do correct me if i am wrong) thanks

Yes, you are wrong. The redesign seems targetted specifically at making one apply for PR cards only from within Canada, and if someone intends to apply from abroad for a pR card, they are making a misrepresentation that would make them (potentially) inadmissible.

 

[dpenabill]

can some with a PRTD (6moths validity, single entry) delay his/her travel to Canada and apply for PRC (via Portal) from outside of Canada and travel once the application is processed and cards are mailed -this is just to avoid a 2 month waiting period.

I am usually the one muddying the waters . . . but this one is not complicated . . .
. . . eventually the discussion got around to the gist of it . . . NO, a PR abroad cannot apply for PR card from outside Canada:

I have addressed this further in response to your similar query in another thread: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/applying-for-pr-card-in-advance-while-holding-a-valid-prtd.773828/

For here, for now: If a PR issued a PR Travel Document cannot return to Canada before the TD expires, they can apply again for another PR TD (subject to qualifying for it, and of course subject to RISK if relying on H&C relief).

. . . or is it advisable to apply for PRC while in Canada and leave if you have to. later if cards are mailed, someone can bring in person?

Again, a PR must be IN Canada to apply for a PR card.

Otherwise, of course there may situations in which a PR concludes they must leave Canada, if "they have to;" that is the PR's decision to make, to decide if and when "they have to" leave, and for how long. But of course leaving Canada for a PR who is not in compliance with the Residency Obligation (who has not been in Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years) necessarily involves taking the RISK of being deemed inadmissible and losing PR status . . . whether that happens when the PR makes another PR TD application, or when the PR next returns to Canada (EVEN if they have a new PR card valid for years).

Hence all the concern about how much the PR has actually been in Canada. It makes a difference. Even if a new PR card is issued.

For a PR abroad relying on H&C relief to keep PR status, generally the best approach is to wait to make the PR TD application based on H&C reasons ONLY when the PR is prepared to come to Canada to stay. REMEMBER: for a PR who will be traveling abroad again, let alone one who goes abroad for any extended period of time, they may be examined as to Residency Obligation compliance the next time they return to Canada. H&C relief is based on sufficient reasons to excuse PAST absences, not future absences.

As others have noted, there is no guarantee she will be issued a new PR card, let alone one will be delivered by mail, if at the time she makes the application she has not been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years. As others have noted, on the contrary, the odds are that, at-best, an in-person pick-up of a new card will be required.

Moreover, if the PR TD was not coded RC-1 there is a substantial risk a PR card application will, at the very least, end up in non-routine processing and take considerably longer than most PRC applications.

I disagree a little with the view that if the PR TD is not coded RC-1 that means the PR should definitely wait until they have been in Canada at least 730 days within the last five years before making the PR card application. Waiting would be the safe approach. And for many, probably most, perhaps most by a lot, it would be very risky to not wait. But a PR can make their H&C case in a PRC application, and whether to take the risk of the PRC application triggering a 44(1) Report procedure, rather than getting approved based on H&C reasons, is a judgment call for the individual PR to make depending on how confident they are in the strength of their H&C case.

BUT . . . leaving Canada in the meantime increases the RISK it does not go well, that it goes in the direction of a decision to terminate PR status.

WHAT TO DO, WHAT TO DO . . . Lawyer-up . . .

Beyond the scope of the obvious, the conventional wisdom, this forum is NOT a good source of advice about what to do. Example of the obvious, the conventional wisdom, is the view that the only safe approach is to come to Canada as soon as possible and STAY long enough to meet the RO, to stay and wait BEFORE leaving again and before making a PR card application.

That will not work for some. It appears, or so you are suggesting, that will not work for your daughter. How she should navigate this situation going forward is beyond the scope of what anyone here can reliably advise. Well beyond. After all, at the very least what her options are, and prospects for how things will go, depend a great deal on all the particular details of her situation, too much detail to share in a public forum like this.

So . . . time to LAWYER-UP . . . to get professional advice and perhaps assistance.

As I have often noted, generally a PR abroad and in breach of the RO, who is in need of H&C relief to keep PR status, should WAIT to make the PR TD application ONLY when they are actually ready to make the move to Canada to stay. This is not, however, a hard and fast thing. This is not necessarily the best approach for every PR in these situations.

A lot depends on the nature and strength of the PR's H&C case. But it warrants remembering and emphasizing that H&C cases are complex and multifaceted. The factors considered are interactive. It warrants remembering that no matter how good the reason for remaining abroad is, other factors can have a big impact, like how much hardship will result from the loss of PR status. The more the PR is abroad, the less it appears being abroad (being denied status to live in Canada) will be a hardship.

For now, she has a PR TD. If feasible, she can use this to come to Canada, and once in Canada personally meet with a reputable immigration lawyer to go over her situation at length, and get real advice, professional advice, about what her options are and the risks and the potential consequences.

If the need to leave Canada is about a short period of time, she may be dependent on applying for and obtaining another PR TD.

If the need to leave Canada is for an extended period of time, it is quite likely she will be dependent on qualifying for a PR TD again when she is actually ready to make the move here to stay.

BUT again, no one here can reliably advise what to do, other than the safe thing: to come and stay. To explore the options other than that, time to lawyer-up.

Or gamble. Many do.

 

[asaeed100]

I am usually the one muddying the waters . . . but this one is not complicated . . .
. . . eventually the discussion got around to the gist of it . . . NO, a PR abroad cannot apply for PR card from outside Canada:

I have addressed this further in response to your similar query in another thread: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/applying-for-pr-card-in-advance-while-holding-a-valid-prtd.773828/

For here, for now: If a PR issued a PR Travel Document cannot return to Canada before the TD expires, they can apply again for another PR TD (subject to qualifying for it, and of course subject to RISK if relying on H&C relief).



Again, a PR must be IN Canada to apply for a PR card.

Otherwise, of course there may situations in which a PR concludes they must leave Canada, if "they have to;" that is the PR's decision to make, to decide if and when "they have to" leave, and for how long. But of course leaving Canada for a PR who is not in compliance with the Residency Obligation (who has not been in Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years) necessarily involves taking the RISK of being deemed inadmissible and losing PR status . . . whether that happens when the PR makes another PR TD application, or when the PR next returns to Canada (EVEN if they have a new PR card valid for years).

Hence all the concern about how much the PR has actually been in Canada. It makes a difference. Even if a new PR card is issued.

For a PR abroad relying on H&C relief to keep PR status, generally the best approach is to wait to make the PR TD application based on H&C reasons ONLY when the PR is prepared to come to Canada to stay. REMEMBER: for a PR who will be traveling abroad again, let alone one who goes abroad for any extended period of time, they may be examined as to Residency Obligation compliance the next time they return to Canada. H&C relief is based on sufficient reasons to excuse PAST absences, not future absences.

As others have noted, there is no guarantee she will be issued a new PR card, let alone one will be delivered by mail, if at the time she makes the application she has not been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years. As others have noted, on the contrary, the odds are that, at-best, an in-person pick-up of a new card will be required.

Moreover, if the PR TD was not coded RC-1 there is a substantial risk a PR card application will, at the very least, end up in non-routine processing and take considerably longer than most PRC applications.

I disagree a little with the view that if the PR TD is not coded RC-1 that means the PR should definitely wait until they have been in Canada at least 730 days within the last five years before making the PR card application. Waiting would be the safe approach. And for many, probably most, perhaps most by a lot, it would be very risky to not wait. But a PR can make their H&C case in a PRC application, and whether to take the risk of the PRC application triggering a 44(1) Report procedure, rather than getting approved based on H&C reasons, is a judgment call for the individual PR to make depending on how confident they are in the strength of their H&C case.

BUT . . . leaving Canada in the meantime increases the RISK it does not go well, that it goes in the direction of a decision to terminate PR status.

WHAT TO DO, WHAT TO DO . . . Lawyer-up . . .

Beyond the scope of the obvious, the conventional wisdom, this forum is NOT a good source of advice about what to do. Example of the obvious, the conventional wisdom, is the view that the only safe approach is to come to Canada as soon as possible and STAY long enough to meet the RO, to stay and wait BEFORE leaving again and before making a PR card application.

That will not work for some. It appears, or so you are suggesting, that will not work for your daughter. How she should navigate this situation going forward is beyond the scope of what anyone here can reliably advise. Well beyond. After all, at the very least what her options are, and prospects for how things will go, depend a great deal on all the particular details of her situation, too much detail to share in a public forum like this.

So . . . time to LAWYER-UP . . . to get professional advice and perhaps assistance.

As I have often noted, generally a PR abroad and in breach of the RO, who is in need of H&C relief to keep PR status, should WAIT to make the PR TD application ONLY when they are actually ready to make the move to Canada to stay. This is not, however, a hard and fast thing. This is not necessarily the best approach for every PR in these situations.

A lot depends on the nature and strength of the PR's H&C case. But it warrants remembering and emphasizing that H&C cases are complex and multifaceted. The factors considered are interactive. It warrants remembering that no matter how good the reason for remaining abroad is, other factors can have a big impact, like how much hardship will result from the loss of PR status. The more the PR is abroad, the less it appears being abroad (being denied status to live in Canada) will be a hardship.

For now, she has a PR TD. If feasible, she can use this to come to Canada, and once in Canada personally meet with a reputable immigration lawyer to go over her situation at length, and get real advice, professional advice, about what her options are and the risks and the potential consequences.

If the need to leave Canada is about a short period of time, she may be dependent on applying for and obtaining another PR TD.

If the need to leave Canada is for an extended period of time, it is quite likely she will be dependent on qualifying for a PR TD again when she is actually ready to make the move here to stay.

BUT again, no one here can reliably advise what to do, other than the safe thing: to come and stay. To explore the options other than that, time to lawyer-up.

Or gamble. Many do.

well your made it further clearer i guess. a PRTD app on H&C grounds (minor child leaving canada 10+ yrs) gets a R-1( a mistake?). means that you are complaint with your RO. and when you apply again (using the same forms) for PRC based on H&C reasoning , could start a A44 report etc. better to wait 2.5 yrs and not approach immigration Div. ie. live without a valid PRC . Enrolling in a good school wouldnt be a challenge? what about getting a health card etc - in ON?

 

[dpenabill]

well your made it further clearer i guess. a PRTD app on H&C grounds (minor child leaving canada 10+ yrs) gets a R-1( a mistake?). means that you are complaint with your RO. and when you apply again (using the same forms) for PRC based on H&C reasoning , could start a A44 report etc. better to wait 2.5 yrs and not approach immigration Div. ie. live without a valid PRC . Enrolling in a good school wouldnt be a challenge? what about getting a health card etc - in ON?

Yes, living in Canada can be a real challenge for a PR who does not have a valid PR card and who does not already have health care coverage or a driver's license, and I understand it also poses serious hurdles for enrolling in schools in Canada. That is real, the way it is. To the extent there are better ways to navigate those things, I will leave that subject to others; I do not know much about that side of things, other than recognizing the fact that this is indeed a real problem for PRs returning to Canada after lengthy absences.

If a PR TD is issued coded RC-1 that shows there was a formal determination deciding to allow the PR to keep PR status despite their breach of the RO. Such a decision is generally binding, and so it is generally safe for a PR to apply for a PR card EVEN THOUGH they are not compliant with the RO. That is, so long as they come to Canada, and they STAY in Canada, the PR who was granted a PR TD coded RC-1 can apply for a PR card with almost no risk that will trigger the 44(1) Report procedure. Make no mistake, however, if the PR is not staying in Canada, the more they are outside Canada the bigger the risk they could be subject to a 44(1) Report procedure . . . either during the processing of the PR card application, or upon their next arrival when returning to Canada. AND, as I noted, EVEN IF they are given a new PR card, if they spend a significant period of time outside Canada they could also face the 44(1) Report procedure when they next arrive at a Port-of-Entry returning to Canada.

But, as I have discussed recently in other topics, we have been seeing numerous reports from PRs abroad in breach of the RO who applied for a PR TD and gave H&C reasons in their application, and were given a PR TD that is NOT coded RC-1. How and why this is happening is something I cannot explain, but like others I have some guesses. Why does not matter, however. Main thing is the PR is given the opportunity to travel to Canada, and most likely will not be screened for RO compliance upon arrival at the PoE.

In many respects, and probably the respects that matter, this is probably very much like a PR who is in breach of the RO being waived into Canada, that is allowed to enter Canada without a 44(1) Report being prepared.

Is that a "mistake?" Sometimes, probably, it is due to an oversight. But it also appears to quite often be because officials tend to give Canadians, which PRs are, a break. A chance to come and stay. That is, it is probably, usually, about officials being lenient or otherwise simply not strict (some here will say that is about laziness, lazy cops so to say; maybe).

In either of these scenarios, that is if the PR in RO breach is able to travel to Canada without a PR TD (such as travel via the U.S.) and is waived through at the border, or if the PR in breach is nonetheless issued a PR TD (but not coded RC-1), the PR has a choice to make. The safe, but as noted often NOT EASY way, is to stay and wait and not leave and not apply for a new PR card until they are in RO compliance (typically two years). Again, that's the safe approach. But, yes, getting settled in Canada without a valid PR card can pose substantial difficulties for many PRs.

That approach is what most recommend. Because it is safe. Because it avoids the risk of engaging in a transaction with IRCC or CBSA which could trigger another RO compliance examination.

But as I said in my previous post, I disagree a little with the view that if the PR TD is not coded RC-1 that means the PR should definitely wait until they have been in Canada at least 730 days within the last five years before making the PR card application. Waiting would be the safe approach. But a PR can proceed to make a PR card application relying on H&C considerations, and if they have a compelling H&C case, PR card application probably will not trigger the 44(1) Report procedure.

But that's a gamble. Whether to place that bet, to take that gamble, is a very personal decision. The factors to consider are many, variable, and specific to the individual.

A key factor includes the strength of the H&C case, and removed as a minor now IN Canada and STAYING in Canada, that's probably a quite good H&C case, BUT best to at least consult with a lawyer first.

But other key factors include whether it is worth the individual's effort to stay and deal with the hardships of not having a valid PR card; some will choose to take their chances with a PR card application sooner, so they can keep status if it is approved, or they can move on with their life outside Canada otherwise.


SPECULATION in regards to why PR TD not coded RC-1 despite an obvious breach and H&C case:

As I noted, this is something I cannot explain, but like others I have some guesses. Mostly, it is my guess, it is about being lenient, about giving PRs a chance, a kind of probationary opportunity to come to Canada to stay, rather than making a formal H&C determination. I am not sure about this. Not at all.

In regards to the approval and grant of a PR TD "means that you are complaint with your RO," to some extent that may be true, but of course that is based on the facts and circumstances of the date the application was made. Technically the PR could still be examined for RO compliance when they arrive at the PoE, and if so the RO compliance calculation would be based on facts as of that date, based on the number of days in Canada within five years of that day. So far as we see, they do not do that. That is, it appears that border officials routinely waive PRs through when they present a valid PR TD. But the RO is an ongoing, as some say "rolling" obligation, so the calculation is different each day, each day being based on a new five year period, and the days counted in Canada during that period.

 

[armoured]

But as I said in my previous post, I disagree a little with the view that if the PR TD is not coded RC-1 that means the PR should definitely wait until they have been in Canada at least 730 days within the last five years before making the PR card application. Waiting would be the safe approach. But a PR can proceed to make a PR card application relying on H&C considerations, and if they have a compelling H&C case, PR card application probably will not trigger the 44(1) Report procedure.

But that's a gamble.

I have no strong opinion - let alone any inside knowledge - of the relative risks/rewards of applying for a PR card early.

But would like to draw attention to the VERY LARGE difference between the scenario specifically mentioned by @asaeed100 (that is, applying for PR card from within Canada and then departing) and a more generic one.

1) Apply for PR card and then depart (prior to receiving card): as noted elsewhere, there is a significant possibility that the PR card app will go into more detailed review, take a rather long time processing (impossible to say how long), and be held for pick-up (that is, held for a form of interview) at an office within Canada. And that if the PR is outside of Canada and unable to come to the office, will need a PRTD - which will face again a substantial risk of being refused and result in loss of PR status. (We do not know how high the risk is, of course).

We should note that it seems as if any evidence of the PR leaving Canada may greatly lengthen the period of examination before the PR card is issued and the likeliood that the card will be held for pick-up within Canada.

In short: leaving Canada without the PR card or before PR card is received greatly increases risk of 'negative consequences' for PR status.

(I've left out some complicated scenarios that might change the balance of risk somewhat, like ability to travel through USA to a land border and avoid applying for a PRTD)

2) Generic: apply for PR card and 'get settled' in Canada and not depart Canada at any time before receipt of PR card. No-one has any idea how long this might take in reality. But it does seem that actually being in Canada reduces likelihood of very long period of examination and/or requirement for pick-up in Canada. And of course, if the PR is in Canada, the requirement to pick-up is not a serious problem (at least now that pick-ups seem to have been renewed after long being on hold due to covid).

Now we can grant that after receiving the PR card, travel abroad is going to be lower risk as PR can board plane, and there seems to be more leniency at actual port of entry (eg airport) for those holding valid PR cards. Perhaps especially for shorter trips. As noted, getting the card doesn't mean that the residency obligation is 'cured', so not without risk, but at least lower risk.

But to underline: the 'plan' to return to Canada, apply for PR card, and then leave before receiving the card is MUCH higher risk (as far as anyone can tell, at least) than the scenario of remaining in Canada.

 

[canuck78]

i understand my question from very beginning was about the online process. ie to apply in advance if the wait is long. . so i just checked. the portal gives you three options at the beginning of the app (if you are inside with or no travel plans or outside. obviously you if you select outside then the portal assumes you are applying for a stolen or lost card. - so the questions change.) she should select inside Canada with no travel plans. and submit the app. however i would advise hee to cosider a paper based app, which i understand is a little quicker . most importantaly you avoid having to deal with a two step process.

thanks again, we all are here to understand, learn and help each other.

If she is applying for PR card renewal based on H&C because she doesn’t meet her RO she needs to be prepared for a much longer wait for a refusal/acceptance. Applications for PR card renewal based on H&C are quite rare and can take a long time to process. There is a good chance that she will have to pick up a PR card in person if she is approved for the PR card renewal based on H&C. I understand that without a PR card she’ll not be able to work, study, access healthcare, etc. It is up to her to decide how badly she wants to retain her PR card status. Her plans to leave Canada aren’t possible if she wants the best chance of retaining her PR status. Your family immigration situation is quite complex. It looks like IRCC wants to see a firm commitment to Canada and that’s likely why your daughter was granted R1 and not RC1. She could have been denied a PRTD so the PRTD with R1 seems to be the compromise. How old is your daughter?

 

[armoured]

I understand that without a PR card she’ll not be able to work, study, access healthcare, etc.

I believe this is stated too categorically. We cannot say that someone without a PR card will NOT be able to work, study, or access healthcare.

There are other factors that matter, such as how recent the expired PR card was, which province, whether a SIN number is active, and others.

Entirely fair to flag and warn PRs that all of these can be serious and critical issues and problems, as these are all problems that MAY arise and for which solutions may not be easy (including eg that the individual may need savings to compensate).

But it is not correct to say that someone 'will not be able to' do these things. It depends on circumstances.

 

[dpenabill]

I believe this is stated too categorically. We cannot say that someone without a PR card will NOT be able to work, study, or access healthcare.

There are other factors that matter, such as how recent the expired PR card was, which province, whether a SIN number is active, and others.

The referenced comments warrant further pushback.

If she is applying for PR card renewal based on H&C because she doesn’t meet her RO she needs to be prepared for a much longer wait for a refusal/acceptance. Applications for PR card renewal based on H&C are quite rare and can take a long time to process.

Probabilities and percentages do not illuminate much at all in regards to these situations.

I would note that what is actually "rare" is that a PR card application relying on H&C considerations is denied (in fact, it is very rare for any PR card application to be denied for a breach of the RO unless the PR is outside Canada), and that it is probably (noting we do not know the statistics, not close) rare for the 44(1) Report procedure to be followed resulting in the loss of PR status for a PR who makes a PR card application based on credible H&C reasons . . . so long as the PR is staying in Canada.

For a PR who was issued a PR TD and who comes to stay in Canada using that PR TD, the odds are most likely rather good a PR card application will NOT trigger the 44(1) Report process (again, so long as they STAY in Canada), but result in being approved and issued a new PR card. As discussed, if the PR TD was ["not" removed in edit] coded RC-1 that would be virtually risk-free, but even if it was coded otherwise, the fact the PR was given a RO compliance pass by a visa office, when a legal presumption the PR does not have PR status applies, is a good signal how it will go for a PR card application -- just not nearly the assurance of a RC-1 coded TD.

The processing timeline is an issue, and as discussed here the potential difficulties of living in Canada without a PR card when a PR is returning to Canada after an absence for many years.

And it is worth noting and emphasizing that the nature and strength of the PR's H&C case can make a big difference in the processing time.

Leading to this:

It looks like IRCC wants to see a firm commitment to Canada and that’s likely why your daughter was granted R1 and not RC1. She could have been denied a PRTD so the PRTD with R1 seems to be the compromise.

Perhaps. But if this is so, that's a very good signal for the PR who was issued such a PR TD. Again, that was issued in a procedure where there was a presumption in law the individual was not a PR. In addition to no longer being burdened by a need to rebut and overcome that presumption, once in Canada the PR's presence in Canada is an additional positive factor in the H&C case. Again, as long as the PR is then STAYING in Canada, it is fairly easy to map the trajectory of how this goes . . . the main question going back to how long it takes, and the difficulty of living in Canada in the meantime.

As onerous as the difficulties encountered can be, and they should not be underestimated, the impact varies widely and depends on the individual's own personal situation.

And to be clear, a PR can legally work in Canada.

I understand that without a PR card she’ll not be able to work . . .

A PR absolutely does NOT need a PR card "to work" in Canada.

If the PR does not yet have a SIN, that can pose a big hurdle to actually finding employment but it does NOT mean the PR cannot work. This is, of course, related to the broader subject of navigating particular difficulties, like getting a SIN, or health care coverage, or enrolling in Canadian schools. As I noted:

To the extent there are better ways to navigate those things, I will leave that subject to others; I do not know much about that side of things, other than recognizing the fact that this is indeed a real problem for PRs returning to Canada after lengthy absences.​

But I know enough to recognize when the problems are being overstated. There is a huge difference between asserting a person will have NO access to healthcare versus the real situation, in which it will be difficult to obtain health care insurance coverage. Here too, personal circumstances vary, and so the impact will vary. For a young person without significant pre-existing health problems, pay-as-you-go health care on a more or less walk-in basis may be quite adequate (in fact, for a period of time prior to getting PR I did that in Canada for years as an older person, taking some risks of encountering more serious health issues, but finding the walk-in care, emergency room services, diagnostics, and even in-hospital surgery services on one occasion, reasonably accessible for a cost less than returning to my home country to get that care).

OVERALL: I do not attempt to offer much information about how to better navigate the difficulties encountered, but for many, many PRs those difficulties are manageable; they are troublesome but not insurmountable. I expect and hope others, either in the settlement discussion topics here in this forum, or in other forums, or in local community-based resources, can offer more information, guidance, or even assistance in navigating this.

 

[asaeed100]

i understand leaving canada without having a PR card in hand carries significant risk. my question was trying to determine if one can apply for PRC via the portal in advance in order to cut short the waiting period. once the card is mailed or asked to be picked up, a person with a valid PRTD could plan to travel and make the most use of the 6month validity. but as someone suggested, that may be considered as misrepresentation or even risk denial of the PRC app - as they might determine that the person is outside of canada.

having said that, and for everyones knowledge one of my daughters got her PRTD with RC1 (removed as minor). she applied for PRC and received it in the mail after 2 months. my second daugher however with similar case (prtd app with H&C ground) got R-1. PRTD with R1 means, you meet the RO. whether it is mistake or not. i am not quite sure. Her PRC application would surely be on H&C grounds. now to wait for 2 years to do that or not, is something we need to consider. we might check in with couple of lawyers to know for sure. thanks to @dpenabill and @armoured for their insights.

 

[armoured]

once the card is mailed or asked to be picked up, a person with a valid PRTD could plan to travel and make the most use of the 6month validity.

I do not understand; you said that the PRTD validity was single-entry only.

PRTD with R1 means, you meet the RO.

No, it does not mean that. Neither does RC-1, I believe: it only means that there has been a formal H&C adjudication in favour of the applicant. We can perhaps say that this is similar to meaning that the past RO non-compliance has been 'forgiven', but along the same lines, you can't precisely say that it means forgiveness in all circumstances for future.

And to be clear: I do not mean to apply this analogy of temporary forgiveness to the R-1. Call that a 'leave to enter', if we must name it.

we might check in with couple of lawyers to know for sure.

This I agree with.

 

[canuck78]

i understand leaving canada without having a PR card in hand carries significant risk. my question was trying to determine if one can apply for PRC via the portal in advance in order to cut short the waiting period. once the card is mailed or asked to be picked up, a person with a valid PRTD could plan to travel and make the most use of the 6month validity. but as someone suggested, that may be considered as misrepresentation or even risk denial of the PRC app - as they might determine that the person is outside of canada.

having said that, and for everyones knowledge one of my daughters got her PRTD with RC1 (removed as minor). she applied for PRC and received it in the mail after 2 months. my second daugher however with similar case (prtd app with H&C ground) got R-1. PRTD with R1 means, you meet the RO. whether it is mistake or not. i am not quite sure. Her PRC application would surely be on H&C grounds. now to wait for 2 years to do that or not, is something we need to consider. we might check in with couple of lawyers to know for sure. thanks to @dpenabill and @armoured for their insights.

How old is your child? If I remember correctly this child may be a minor still which can create complications when it comes to approvals if her parents do not live in Canada. Does she want to return home to complete her schooling? Did she ever get a SIN#? As someone has already pointed out PRTD with R1 means that your child has been awarded PRTD but without H&C so renewing PR card is not guaranteed especially based on H&C. Your other child was able to obtain a PR card right away and without problems because they had a PRTD withRC-1. It has become harder to get a PRTD based on H&C over the past 5 years for minors who were removed from Canada against their wishes. That may be why one child got approved with RC-1 while the other did not. It is impossible for your child to apply for PR card renewal without travelling to Canada first.

 

[dpenabill]

@asaeed100 . . . the main thing is whether or not your daughter is prepared to come to Canada to stay. If she comes to stay, and can manage the temporary hurdles involved in moving here (some of which will be aggravated by not having a PR card for some time, but there are also other hurdles any youthful immigrant faces in coming to and settling in Canada), she will have a future in Canada.

. . . a person with a valid PRTD could plan to travel and make the most use of the 6month validity

I do not understand; you said that the PRTD validity was single-entry only.

The six month validity of the PR TD is about the time frame within which the individual issued a PR TD needs to make the trip to Canada.

It is readily apparent that @asaeed100 is referencing his daughter not making the trip right away, but staying in the home country making the "most use of the 6 month validity," to in effect put off going to Canada for up to six months.

my question was trying to determine if one can apply for PRC via the portal in advance in order to cut short the waiting period.

I believe this has been fully answered. But just to be clear, the forms for the PR card application changed in June. It is NO LONGER possible to make a PR card application without affirmatively declaring the PR is IN Canada.

That is, a PR cannot make a PR card application while they are outside Canada UNLESS they make a false declaration as to their location. That would not merely be "considered" misrepresentation, that is misrepresentation.

Spoiler alert: fraud is not a good approach, even if there is a chance of getting away with it.

I assume you were asking about if the application can be legitimately made in advance, and doubt you were asking if there is some other way a person can make the application from abroad, but since so many PRs were able to do that in the past, even the very recent past, that is make the PR card application from abroad, it is really important to be clear the form has changed, and this is a big difference: There is now, as of June, no way to make the PR card application while abroad without engaging in overt fraud. It is not like before, when IRCC perceived the applicant was abroad and diverted the application into non-routine process or subjected it to elevated scrutiny. There is NO WAY to make the application from abroad now, given the change in the forms, without committing fraud.

. . . one of my daughters got her PRTD with RC1 (removed as minor). she applied for PRC and received it in the mail after 2 months. my second daugher however with similar case (prtd app with H&C ground) got R-1. PRTD with R1 means, you meet the RO. whether it is mistake or not.

Separating the discussion of RO compliance from H&C or breach-forgiveness decisions (my previous posts address the latter at length):

I agree with @armoured that no, that it is NOT correct that a "PRTD with R1 means, you meet the RO."

But here too there is a key principle to remember: the best, the very best the PR TD with R-1 means is that as of the date the application for a PR TD was made IRCC made a decision to not find the PR in breach of the Residency Obligation.

If one insists that must mean there was a decision the PR "meets" the RO, that would only be about meeting the RO as of the date the application was made. Not today. Not tomorrow. But only as of that particular day in the past.

Please forgive me for parsing tenses, and perhaps hammering a bit too loudly.

But here, in this context, the tense does matter. There is a difference between a decision a PR "met" (past tense) the RO, as of some day in the past, versus whether a PR "meets" (present tense) the RO now, or as of some day in the future, such as the day they apply for a PR card.

RO compliance is a different calculation every day. A past determination of RO compliance is only that, a determination that on that date in the past the PR was not in breach of the RO.

How Does This Affect Things Part I:

If you are examined for RO compliance today, for example, you might say that means "you meet the RO," but that is ONLY about today, only in the present tense as of the date the examination is conducted or the date it is based on (such as the date of an application for example). Tomorrow will be a different RO compliance calculation. Just because you meet the RO today, August 3, 2022, does not mean you will meet it tomorrow. Tomorrow, that is August 4, 2022, the calculation will be based on the number of days in Canada between August 4, 2017 and August 4, 2022.

Or, say we are talking about a PR TD application made April 3, 2022, and that is granted. At the most, this means the PRTD-applicant got a pass for a RO compliance assessment based on that date, or if you insist, it is a decision that as of April 3, 2022 they meet the RO.

That does not mean they meet the RO today. That absolutely does not mean they will be meeting the RO on the day they apply for a PR card, say September 18, 2022.

How Does This Affect Things Part II:

If a PR's RO compliance is examined today, and its a pass, it's very likely they will still meet the RO tomorrow. It does not "mean" they will "meet" the RO as of tomorrow, but the difference of one day is not likely to change the calculation. Similarly a week from now, perhaps a month or two or three.

If there is a formal RO compliance examination, how likely it is the RO is still met does not matter. What matters is the calculation based on the date of examination. Thus, for example, when there is a PR card application, IRCC does not look at a previous RO compliance decision but rather makes a new RO compliance determination. Does not matter if a recent decision makes it likely the PR still "meets" the RO; what matters is that the PR does still meet the RO (noting that if in breach, there is still the H&C consideration aspect).

But a recent determination that a PR is in compliance can influence whether an official decides to engage in a discretionary RO compliance examination. Such as during a Port-of-Entry examination.

As I noted in a previous post, for example, when the PR with a PR TD arrives at a PoE there is very little likelihood the PR will be formally examined for RO compliance. Border officials can and will typically rely on the decision made in issuing the PR TD as a good enough indication that the PR is either still in RO compliance or at least close enough there is no cause to re-examine and calculate RO compliance. But make no mistake, if for whatever reason border officials do decide to engage in a formal RO compliance examination, that calculation will be based on days in Canada within the last five years of that day, and for that purpose the decision to grant the PR TD is not much relevant.

However, even if border officials apprehend the PR is in RO breach, they are likely to assume the PR TD is a good enough indication that the PR is at least close enough that H&C relief is appropriate without having to conduct a formal examination and determination.

Beyond that leads to how H&C elements factor into a subsequent application for a PR card. Which I addressed in a previous post, where I disagree some with how risky that will be for a PR issued a PR TD not coded RC-1 but otherwise obviously a H&C case.

 

[asaeed100]

@asaeed100 . . . the main thing is whether or not your daughter is prepared to come to Canada to stay. If she comes to stay, and can manage the temporary hurdles involved in moving here (some of which will be aggravated by not having a PR card for some time, but there are also other hurdles any youthful immigrant faces in coming to and settling in Canada), she will have a future in Canada.




The six month validity of the PR TD is about the time frame within which the individual issued a PR TD needs to make the trip to Canada.

It is readily apparent that @asaeed100 is referencing his daughter not making the trip right away, but staying in the home country making the "most use of the 6 month validity," to in effect put off going to Canada for up to six months.



I believe this has been fully answered. But just to be clear, the forms for the PR card application changed in June. It is NO LONGER possible to make a PR card application without affirmatively declaring the PR is IN Canada.

That is, a PR cannot make a PR card application while they are outside Canada UNLESS they make a false declaration as to their location. That would not merely be "considered" misrepresentation, that is misrepresentation.

Spoiler alert: fraud is not a good approach, even if there is a chance of getting away with it.

I assume you were asking about if the application can be legitimately made in advance, and doubt you were asking if there is some other way a person can make the application from abroad, but since so many PRs were able to do that in the past, even the very recent past, that is make the PR card application from abroad, it is really important to be clear the form has changed, and this is a big difference: There is now, as of June, no way to make the PR card application while abroad without engaging in overt fraud. It is not like before, when IRCC perceived the applicant was abroad and diverted the application into non-routine process or subjected it to elevated scrutiny. There is NO WAY to make the application from abroad now, given the change in the forms, without committing fraud.




Separating the discussion of RO compliance from H&C or breach-forgiveness decisions (my previous posts address the latter at length):

I agree with @armoured that no, that it is NOT correct that a "PRTD with R1 means, you meet the RO."

But here too there is a key principle to remember: the best, the very best the PR TD with R-1 means is that as of the date the application for a PR TD was made IRCC made a decision to not find the PR in breach of the Residency Obligation.

If one insists that must mean there was a decision the PR "meets" the RO, that would only be about meeting the RO as of the date the application was made. Not today. Not tomorrow. But only as of that particular day in the past.

Please forgive me for parsing tenses, and perhaps hammering a bit too loudly.

But here, in this context, the tense does matter. There is a difference between a decision a PR "met" (past tense) the RO, as of some day in the past, versus whether a PR "meets" (present tense) the RO now, or as of some day in the future, such as the day they apply for a PR card.

RO compliance is a different calculation every day. A past determination of RO compliance is only that, a determination that on that date in the past the PR was not in breach of the RO.

How Does This Affect Things Part I:

If you are examined for RO compliance today, for example, you might say that means "you meet the RO," but that is ONLY about today, only in the present tense as of the date the examination is conducted or the date it is based on (such as the date of an application for example). Tomorrow will be a different RO compliance calculation. Just because you meet the RO today, August 3, 2022, does not mean you will meet it tomorrow. Tomorrow, that is August 4, 2022, the calculation will be based on the number of days in Canada between August 4, 2017 and August 4, 2022.

Or, say we are talking about a PR TD application made April 3, 2022, and that is granted. At the most, this means the PRTD-applicant got a pass for a RO compliance assessment based on that date, or if you insist, it is a decision that as of April 3, 2022 they meet the RO.

That does not mean they meet the RO today. That absolutely does not mean they will be meeting the RO on the day they apply for a PR card, say September 18, 2022.

How Does This Affect Things Part II:

If a PR's RO compliance is examined today, and its a pass, it's very likely they will still meet the RO tomorrow. It does not "mean" they will "meet" the RO as of tomorrow, but the difference of one day is not likely to change the calculation. Similarly a week from now, perhaps a month or two or three.

If there is a formal RO compliance examination, how likely it is the RO is still met does not matter. What matters is the calculation based on the date of examination. Thus, for example, when there is a PR card application, IRCC does not look at a previous RO compliance decision but rather makes a new RO compliance determination. Does not matter if a recent decision makes it likely the PR still "meets" the RO; what matters is that the PR does still meet the RO (noting that if in breach, there is still the H&C consideration aspect).

But a recent determination that a PR is in compliance can influence whether an official decides to engage in a discretionary RO compliance examination. Such as during a Port-of-Entry examination.

As I noted in a previous post, for example, when the PR with a PR TD arrives at a PoE there is very little likelihood the PR will be formally examined for RO compliance. Border officials can and will typically rely on the decision made in issuing the PR TD as a good enough indication that the PR is either still in RO compliance or at least close enough there is no cause to re-examine and calculate RO compliance. But make no mistake, if for whatever reason border officials do decide to engage in a formal RO compliance examination, that calculation will be based on days in Canada within the last five years of that day, and for that purpose the decision to grant the PR TD is not much relevant.

However, even if border officials apprehend the PR is in RO breach, they are likely to assume the PR TD is a good enough indication that the PR is at least close enough that H&C relief is appropriate without having to conduct a formal examination and determination.

Beyond that leads to how H&C elements factor into a subsequent application for a PR card. Which I addressed in a previous post, where I disagree some with how risky that will be for a PR issued a PR TD not coded RC-1 but otherwise obviously a H&C case.

i will surely provide an update on this in the coming days. i have already started something in parallel, and hoping for the best. i believe experts have addressed the issue while considering all aspects in this scenario. it would be good to know if there were people who entered canada with a Prtd especially on H&C grounds (regardless of the coding) , applied for PRC card with H&C as well, and then had to deal with A44 instead. i would try to search on Canlii website. thanks to all especially @dpenabill and @armoured

 

[armoured]

@asaeed100 . . . the main thing is whether or not your daughter is prepared to come to Canada to stay. If she comes to stay, and can manage the temporary hurdles involved in moving here (some of which will be aggravated by not having a PR card for some time, but there are also other hurdles any youthful immigrant faces in coming to and settling in Canada), she will have a future in Canada.

Well put.

It is readily apparent that @asaeed100 is referencing his daughter not making the trip right away, but staying in the home country making the "most use of the 6 month validity," to in effect put off going to Canada for up to six months.

That was not apparent to me, actually, since he'd raised the question several times of the daughter returning to Canada and then departing shortly thereafter. But if that is what was meant, agreed.

 

[armoured]

... there were people who entered canada with a Prtd especially on H&C grounds (regardless of the coding)

You still seem to believe that there is no substantive difference, or only insignificant ones, between different 'codings' - and that one without the H&C coding is still 'effectively' on H&C grounds.

I strongly suggest you speak to whatever legal counsel you have about this - whatever you think about the difference, what really matters is how IRCC (and laws/regs) see it.