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Effective date of Bill C24

DND

Star Member
Oct 20, 2014
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Lux et Veritas said:
My sentiments exactly lol we don't want animals like that in our midst.
Sure. let's tailor special rules just for these animals to let them walk free abroad and laugh at our stupidity

For other animals who happen to have a single citizenship, or these serious criminals who happen to not be defined as terrorists we sure are OK with them being in or midst, right?
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
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DND said:
His home country is Iran, I'm not at all sure what are they going to do with him. This is also a one example. His home country may as well be Iraq, Syria or any other country in which they may not see his offence in the same light. Moreover even if he is convicted, in his home country who is to guarantee their prison system is good enough to keep him inside for long

Why should Canadian taxpayer bear the cost to house/feed any of it's dangerous criminals (like murderers, mass murderers, rapists etc)?

We are not talking here about "reinstating capital punishment" nor about "torturing dangerous terrorist to obtain valuable information for protecting out citizenship" If this was the case I would understand. Instead we are doing ... What exactly are we trying to do here???
Are you upset that he is not being punished enough, or that he is not being punished in Canada? If it's the former, then I think we should wait and see what fate awaits him in Iran. If it's the latter, then I'd rather have him out of the country without any chance of ever returning and let his own government deal with him.
 

DND

Star Member
Oct 20, 2014
62
6
torontosm said:
Are you upset that he is not being punished enough, or that he is not being punished in Canada? If it's the former, then I think we should wait and see what fate awaits him in Iran. If it's the latter, then I'd rather have him out of the country without any chance of ever returning and let his own government deal with him.

I'm upset with the stupid laws by Harper government (TM)

What you are saying is similar to this:
"He is an evil man. But I'm sure God will punish him"

When a serious crime is made, including terrorism, the country should be responsible to punish the criminals. We should not wash our hands and expel any criminals without the punishment.
If the punishment is not harsh enough, let's go ahead and change it
If it too expensive to hold prisoners, we should make the system more efficient
If errors were made when granting this man a citizenship. Let's review the process

Again if Harper was Pro Capital punishment/life sentence for terrorists, I would be all for it. As it stands this law seems very stupid

In general, punishment for crime is necessary to deter others from doing it. It should be same for everybody, regardless of their dual/multiple nationalities.
 

screech339

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DND said:
I'm upset with the stupid laws by Harper government (TM)

What you are saying is similar to this:
"He is an evil man. But I'm sure God will punish him"

When a serious crime is made, including terrorism, the country should be responsible to punish the criminals. We should not wash our hands and expel any criminals without the punishment.
If the punishment is not harsh enough, let's go ahead and change it
If it too expensive to hold prisoners, we should make the system more efficient
If errors were made when granting this man a citizenship. Let's review the process

Again if Harper was Pro Capital punishment/life sentence for terrorists, I would be all for it. As it stands this law seems very stupid

In general, punishment for crime is necessary to deter others from doing it. It should be same for everybody, regardless of their dual/multiple nationalities.
Well, there is an option to keep them in jail to serve out their sentence and then deport them. However what's the point of holding them in jail costing taxpayers money only to have him/her deported at the end. Keeping them in jail until time serve than deportation seems moot. Still cost taxpayers money regardless. So why not save ourselves the cost and deport them out now.

Besides this topic is totally unrelated to the topic of this thread. Please start a new thread and discuss it there. Let this thread die.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Technical observations regarding effective date of Bill C-24 provisions:

As of today, the Order by the Governor in Council which fixed June 11, 2015 as the day certain provisions in the SCCA came into force, including those provisions of primary interest in this topic, those governing the requirements for the grant of citizenship (naturalized citizenship), still does NOT show up in either the Parliamentary Business web pages (purporting to be current as of June 23, 19 days after the Governor in Council's order) nor even in the Privy Council database. Thus, neither is it yet reflected in the official version of the Citizenship Act.

As noted before, the coming into force of the provisions in the SCCA which prescribe new grounds and procedures for the revocation of citizenship was fixed in a May 28, 2015 Order as that day. This Order, while made just a week before the one still not appearing any where other than the Gazette (both Orders registered and published in the June 17 issue of Part II), is also published at the Parliamentary Business web site and appears in the Privy Council database. And it has been reflected in the official version of the Citizenship Act since June 24, 2015.

While it is a distinction without a difference, of no consequence, it is interesting that CIC web pages post the WRONG date for the coming-into-force of the revised revocation provisions. CIC's web site refers to May 29, 2015, when in fact these provisions came into force May 28, 2015 (see the official order in the Gazette).

I bring this up because the published article about Hiva Alizadeh being the first person targeted to have his citizenship stripped according to the revised provisions, a National Post story on Canada Day (linked here), also gets the date wrong.

Here's the RUB: These proceedings are confidential unless and until there is a Federal Court case. Even when (under the prior procedure, the Minister now takes the action) the Governor in Council issued the Order revoking citizenship (there are just over a hundred such orders issued while Harper has been PM; see the Privy Council data base), that Order would only state who the individual was affected by the Order by reference without identifying the individual by name.

So how did Stewart Bell, whose byline appears in the National Post story, come by this information about the government taking action to strip Hiva Alizadeh of citizenship?

We know CIC is the source of the wrong date for when these provisions came into force. And guess what date Steward Bell cites. The same wrong date.

We know who has the information about the government taking this action to strip Hiva Alizadeh's citizenship: CIC.

Is there a motive? Why would CIC leak this information to a newspaper reporter?

The Conservatives recently released a campaign advertisement which actually incorporated video which the Government prohibits distribution of in Canada (because it is a recruiting video for ISIS) . . . anyone else who used that video would be subject to prosecution . . . but the Tories used it in an ad targeted at disparaging Trudeau's alleged weaknesses regarding the threat of terrorism.

Hmmmmmmmm . . .

And now this leaked story about going after Hiva Alizadeh.

Is someone trampling Canadian law just to get out a message about how tough they are on terrorism?

There seems to be little or no doubt about that: YES. No surprise when the sitting Prime Minister is the first and only Prime Minister in Canadian history to be found in contempt of Parliament (in 2011).

And sure, scores of Canadians will applaud. And will vote again for a Conservative majority. In the meantime, however, profound principles are being trampled upon.

It is easy to applaud the punishment of known truly bad guys.

It is not so easy to protect the core values of a society built on the rule of law, social justice, and a system designed to protect not just our best citizens but everyone equally.

Sure, it appears that Hiva Alizadeh deserves harsh punishment. But the rest of us also deserve a government which protects all individuals equally and we deserve a government that does not abuse the system for political purposes (like illegally leaking information just to make a political message).

In any event, all this leads back to the real issues about the new grounds for revoking citizenship:

The government has passed a new law (Bill C-24) and (apparently) is using this new law to add a new punishment for Hiva Alizadeh for acts committed before the new law was even proposed let alone took effect.

Additionally, the government is using this new law to strip citizenship for criminal conduct committed after the person became a citizen.

These are two big issues. I do not know how the Courts will rule regarding these issues. These issues go well beyond political differences of opinion but go to the essential core of what citizenship means. There is no hint, none at all, that Hiva Alizadeh's citizenship was invalid. Can Parliament pass a law which (1) ex post facto takes away citizenship (that is, for crimes committed before the law took effect)? a law which (2) invalidates citizenship lawfully acquired based on acts after citizenship is acquired?

These are questions about the rule of law, fundamental principles, and the core meaning of citizenship. This is not about whether Hiva Alizadeh should retain citizenship or not. It is about our fundamental system of rights, responsibilities, and justice.

We know Justice Donald Rennie's opinion about this. Justice Rennie is OK with Parliament having absolute authority to pass such legislation.

That, however, is certainly not going to be the last word about these huge, huge issues.

I would note, in passing, however, it is disconcerting and disappointing to see this matter trivialized. This is not about Hiva Alizadeh. This is about us, our government, our core values, the country we have, the country we want, the people we are and will be. This matter deserves more than one-liner zingers.
 

neutral

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Mar 19, 2015
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DND said:
The national post article says "Should his Canadian citizenship be revoked, he would be deported."

So, instead of punishing this person for crimes against Canada and Canadians, we will simply deport this person to walk free and possibly join ISIS or whoever?

I really don't understand this.
I'm in favor of hard punishment for terrorist, maybe even in favor of "Guantanamo" style treatment for convicted in terrorism ...
But instead we just let him go? Really?
I agree with you and understand what you mean. However, we don't know exactly what are Canada's plans. There are several countries agreements where the criminal finishes his sentence in his home country. Of course, to do this each country has to accept other's country sentence.

We should know what terrorist group this terrorist belong to. For example, if it's Hezbollah, a terrorist group that Iran finances, obviously it won't make any sense sending him home.

Regarding your example, Iranians are shiites and Isis are sunnites so there is no way this terrorist would join ISIS. Sunnis and Shiites Muslims hate each other as you don't have idea.
 

Natan

Hero Member
May 22, 2015
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dpenabill said:
These are questions about the rule of law, fundamental principles, and the core meaning of citizenship. This is not about whether Hiva Alizadeh should retain citizenship or not. It is about our fundamental system of rights, responsibilities, and justice.

...it is disconcerting and disappointing to see this matter trivialized. This is not about Hiva Alizadeh. This is about us, our government, our core values, the country we have, the country we want, the people we are and will be.
Thank you, dpenabill. As usual, you have clearly identified the real issue here.

From a civil rights perspective, a society is best judged by how it treats its most vulnerable members. Those convicted of terrorism and treason are particularly vulnerable. Persecuting them may be popular, but doing the "right" thing sometimes means doing the unpopular thing. The elected politician who sacrifices their popularity by supporting the rights of even a terrorist and a traitor, is a politician who has earned my vote. I do not, under any circumstances, support terrorism or treason. I do, however, fully support everyone's right to be treated fairly, and with all due human dignity, by Government and its agents.
 

ottomancan

Member
May 8, 2015
19
2
So my questions is about intent to reside. Once you get your passport are you free to travel as much as you like or because of the new law we have to stay in Canada for lets say 6 months a year?
So for example after I got my passport can i go for world tour for a year or 2 with no problem or we dont have our mobility right because of we will declare that our intention to stay in Canada?
After few years when you come back would you have problem when you are entering the country?
 

polara69

Hero Member
Mar 9, 2013
760
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ottomancan said:
So my questions is about intent to reside. Once you get your passport are you free to travel as much as you like or because of the new law we have to stay in Canada for lets say 6 months a year?
So for example after I got my passport can i go for world tour for a year or 2 with no problem or we dont have our mobility right because of we will declare that our intention to stay in Canada?
After few years when you come back would you have problem when you are entering the country?

The intent to reside only applies from the time of citizenship application to the oath taking. After that you can come and go as you please.
 

ottomancan

Member
May 8, 2015
19
2
If it is like than it is great. I can take a job offer over in australia :) how can we make sure about that? If i can come back in few years with no problem ☺
 

polara69

Hero Member
Mar 9, 2013
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ottomancan said:
If it is like than it is great. I can take a job offer over in australia :) how can we make sure about that? If i can come back in few years with no problem ☺
Be careful, read this http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/intent-to-reside-my-understanding-t257093.0.html
 

Candoes

Star Member
May 26, 2013
72
0
As a Citizen you can take a job offer from the Jupiter and come back after 10 years you are still Citizen.

from
ottomancan said:
If it is like than it is great. I can take a job offer over in australia :) how can we make sure about that? If i can come back in few years with no problem ☺
 

screech339

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Apr 2, 2013
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ottomancan said:
If it is like than it is great. I can take a job offer over in australia :) how can we make sure about that? If i can come back in few years with no problem ☺
You can do this so long as you accepted the job offer AFTER you gotten citizenship. If you accepted job offer before you gotten citizenship, then you are in a grey area since you did not "intend" to reside during the citizenship process.