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Disabled Sponsor, Sweetheart in Togo

on-hold

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Feb 6, 2010
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Koifish76 said:
You are not alone. Many of us on here have painfully long and difficult hurdles to overcome to be with our loved ones. I myself have a disability (hard of hearing) and am constantly reminded of people's insecurities and ignorance in everyday life. And now on here I read about people possibly stereotyping again (my wife is Thai). However, many points mentioned are helpful and sincere and it's easy to misinterpret as we are all behind a keyboard.
'Stereotyping' hogwash -- I described a scenario that plays out again and again in rural Thailand, based on my years of experience living there, translating letters for village women who don't speak English, talking with foreigner men who got their fingers and other organs burned, reading the papers. etc. If you're unhappy that it occurs, don't read forums where you'll hear about it. I didn't say a single thing that ascribed qualities or behaviours to people based on their ethnicity, and if you search this forum you'll find a couple of detailed posts where I discuss how the differences between Thai marriage customs and Western marriage customs contribute to this dynamic.

Original Poster, you mistook my questions. I have no opinion about the truth or falsity of your relationship at all -- its red flags won't make me think it's false, and your belief in it won't make me think it's true, only time can tell on these fronts. I'm not CIC, which has to decide. When I asked 'how an isolated disabled Canadian woman and a Togolese fruit seller met' I thought it was clear that I meant that as a question that you will have to answer, at least implicitly, for CIC. A lot of the proof you supply as to your relationship will have this question as its underpinning, and I think it is VERY likely that your disability will cause them to raise their standard of evidence. Is that fair to you? It is not. Will they do this explicitly? They will not. It will simply be an exaggerated version of their "Does this relationship conform to the cultural standards etc. etc."

And above all, the general tone of your last post, which I would paraphrase as "I must have this relationship to give my life value" should be avoided when dealing with CIC. Why? Because people who are desperate are the easiest to trick. CIC's criteria are already conservative -- they like marriages that look like other marriages. Yours won't. If Maude had been Canadian and Harold had been Cuban, they would have had some huge hurdles to get over.

As for your point about 'tact or sensitivity', tact or sensitivity about what? Do you mean that you came here for advice, but that you don't want anyone to mention the real possibility that you are being scammed? Even though that possibility is the thing that you need to explicitly acknowledge so that you can demonstrate to CIC that it is not occurring? If you re-read my email, you'll see that I have not actually said a single thing that casts aspersions on your relationship -- instead, I suggested practical things that you can do that will both protect you, and let the relationship continue, and warned you about a couple of danger signs. (Incidentally, one of the biggest danger signs is refusing to acknowledge other danger signs -- 'headlong' is the style, for the men who jump off of Pattaya hotels) Perhaps you missed the extensive parts of my email where I commended you for finding a companion, and commented on the naturalness of this. Finally, think about this:

I married a Thai woman. Here are the things people think when they hear that: bar girl, prostitute, gold-digger, ping-pong ball, Pattaya, jerk-who-marries-Asian-woman-because-she-never-talks-back. The first six of those don't bother me, because I don't look down on bar girls, and I married my wife because I love her -- I could spend my life apologizing for her ("I'd like you to meet my wife, she's a Thai NURSE") and our marriage, but why bother? The last of these irritates me because the truth is actually closer to the opposite :-X but aside from that, no big deal. Here in Canada people have a lot of dumb ideas about immigrants; they have a lot of dumb ideas about people who marry immigrants; and your situation, blind, married to a Togolese guy with a bunch of kids, is going to trigger all of these dumb ideas. Spending your life feeling sensitive about that is going to be a bit of a chore.
 

Obronibini

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Jul 20, 2013
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on-hold said:
'Stereotyping' hogwash -- I described a scenario that plays out again and again in rural Thailand, based on my years of experience living there, translating letters for village women who don't speak English, talking with foreigner men who got their fingers and other organs burned, reading the papers. etc. If you're unhappy that it occurs, don't read forums where you'll hear about it. I didn't say a single thing that ascribed qualities or behaviours to people based on their ethnicity, and if you search this forum you'll find a couple of detailed posts where I discuss how the differences between Thai marriage customs and Western marriage customs contribute to this dynamic.

Original Poster, you mistook my questions. I have no opinion about the truth or falsity of your relationship at all -- its red flags won't make me think it's false, and your belief in it won't make me think it's true, only time can tell on these fronts. I'm not CIC, which has to decide. When I asked 'how an isolated disabled Canadian woman and a Togolese fruit seller met' I thought it was clear that I meant that as a question that you will have to answer, at least implicitly, for CIC. A lot of the proof you supply as to your relationship will have this question as its underpinning, and I think it is VERY likely that your disability will cause them to raise their standard of evidence. Is that fair to you? It is not. Will they do this explicitly? They will not. It will simply be an exaggerated version of their "Does this relationship conform to the cultural standards etc. etc."

And above all, the general tone of your last post, which I would paraphrase as "I must have this relationship to give my life value" should be avoided when dealing with CIC. Why? Because people who are desperate are the easiest to trick. CIC's criteria are already conservative -- they like marriages that look like other marriages. Yours won't. If Maude had been Canadian and Harold had been Cuban, they would have had some huge hurdles to get over.

As for your point about 'tact or sensitivity', tact or sensitivity about what? Do you mean that you came here for advice, but that you don't want anyone to mention the real possibility that you are being scammed? Even though that possibility is the thing that you need to explicitly acknowledge so that you can demonstrate to CIC that it is not occurring? If you re-read my email, you'll see that I have not actually said a single thing that casts aspersions on your relationship -- instead, I suggested practical things that you can do that will both protect you, and let the relationship continue, and warned you about a couple of danger signs. (Incidentally, one of the biggest danger signs is refusing to acknowledge other danger signs -- 'headlong' is the style, for the men who jump off of Pattaya hotels) Perhaps you missed the extensive parts of my email where I commended you for finding a companion, and commented on the naturalness of this. Finally, think about this:

I married a Thai woman. Here are the things people think when they hear that: bar girl, prostitute, gold-digger, ping-pong ball, Pattaya, jerk-who-marries-Asian-woman-because-she-never-talks-back. The first six of those don't bother me, because I don't look down on bar girls, and I married my wife because I love her -- I could spend my life apologizing for her ("I'd like you to meet my wife, she's a Thai NURSE") and our marriage, but why bother? The last of these irritates me because the truth is actually closer to the opposite :-X but aside from that, no big deal. Here in Canada people have a lot of dumb ideas about immigrants; they have a lot of dumb ideas about people who marry immigrants; and your situation, blind, married to a Togolese guy with a bunch of kids, is going to trigger all of these dumb ideas. Spending your life feeling sensitive about that is going to be a bit of a chore.
+ 100 . I think she need to take it easy . And try to gather infos here that can help because cic will factor all you mentioned in their decision . They do with every case. I like your writings
 

Rob_TO

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Obronibini said:
conjugal sponsorship may help in your case , read more about it and see . Maybe you can have him apply for visitors visa and when he's denied you can rely on that to say he wasn't granted visa and you can't travel there because if your disability unless you have someone to be your sight and you will have to posiblily pay for thier travels , and that coupled with the fact that the people or person that can be your sight can't get time off work Etc. they should buy that story. Search and read about successful stories about conjugal sponsorships . And again 6 weeks is not enough , 2 , 3, 6 months won't be enough either . I doubt if cic will understand that. Maybe you should give it a year or more
I don't think there has ever been a conjugal application approved ever, in which the sponsor and applicant had not actually met in person at least 1 time. Would be curious to see if there has been.

First off, to qualify for conjugal you must be in a relationship for a minimum of 1 year. And second, the relationship must be a "marriage-like" relationship. Frankly I don't think it's possible to develop a marriage like relationship (in the eyes of CIC) without ever having actually met your partner.

So basically if he can't ever get a visitor visa to go to Canada, and the OP can't travel outside of Canada due to disability (so basically they can never get legally married), I don't think there is any possibility of sponsorship whatsoever. All efforts at this point should be in securing a visitor visa for him, or finding a way to travel for her.
 

Obronibini

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04-08-2014
commonlawsponsor said:
The longer you guys are a couple before you apply, the better it will look to CIC. Having a short courtship will be a huge red flag. So I would really wait before thinking of applying.


I'm not trying to be judgemental so please don't take this the wrong way but where did you place this classified ad?
placing and ad saying you are looking for a marriage in it self can give you out to bad guys on the Internet from deprived countries. I have friends who ask me why African men are so quick to say ." I love you @ after chatting for just one day and " will you marry me" after few days or weeks ? Many people are going to agree to marry you within few days and 90 percent is moc . It better things flow naturally , you get to know them for a while without having a tag . "Am looking for marriage" it usually turns out bad around here .
 

Obronibini

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Jul 20, 2013
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04-08-2014
Rob_TO said:
I don't think there has ever been a conjugal application approved ever, in which the sponsor and applicant had not actually met in person at least 1 time. Would be curious to see if there has been.

First off, to qualify for conjugal you must be in a relationship for a minimum of 1 year. And second, the relationship must be a "marriage-like" relationship. Frankly I don't think it's possible to develop a marriage like relationship (in the eyes of CIC) without ever having actually met your partner.

So basically if he can't ever get a visitor visa to go to Canada, and the OP can't travel outside of Canada due to disability (so basically they can never get legally married), I don't think there is any possibility of sponsorship whatsoever. All efforts at this point should be in securing a visitor visa for him, or finding a way to travel for her.
thank you rob . Coming from you I have no doubt what so ever. You know more than I do . Am a fan of yours and I need an autograph :)
 

benjis_monikuss

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Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
24-02-2014
VISA ISSUED...
27-02-2014
LANDED..........
09-03-2014
I think people can be incredibly insensitive, even if it comes from a good place. The only advice we can give with sound knowledge is based on our own immigration process, we cannot begin to make judgement calls on the personal aspects of peoples lives. It is not our place to step in if the relationship involves same sex couples, 30 year age gaps, a collision of nationalities or disabilities. It's one thing to give advice, but it's another to judge and belittle based off our knowledge, or lack thereof. This could also be a cultural barrier, there are tens of thousands of people on this forum from hundreds of different countries. Why would people assume because the OP has a disability that she is more likely to be scammed? Perhaps because of the stereotypes of our present civilization, the OP is in fact, more wary than the rest of us would be. It is wonderful and terrible at the same time that our technology has developed exponentially over the past 30 odd years to allow people from every corner of the earth to cross paths. Just because there are bad people out there, doesn't mean we should instantly assume that every case with those specifics is the same; it's like eating a terrible burger from one restaurant and pledging never to try another burger again (how dull life would be, right?). Next time we'll just pop our head in the kitchen and check things out first. Only the OP can decide what is best for her in the end, and no one has the right to stop someone from loving another person. A little bit more tact could be taken in the way some posters approach a response; sure you sit around answering 'silly' questions from people on this forum all day but that doesn't grant a God complex and it shouldn't stop you from treating anyone in these threads the way you would treat your own family; no one is born with the answers to everything.

My only advice is that perhaps you could get a couple of free consults from a few immigration lawyers who may have more experience with this issue then half the people on this forum combined. This place is a Utopia of invaluable information and you'll be hard pressed to find a question that doesn't have an answer, but when you can't find one, the next step is to speak to someone who gets paid and studied to deal with situations just like this one. I truly wish you (and every single other person going through this ridiculous process) the best of luck and I hope that everything works out in the end. Every living thing on this planet deserves to feel love and give it in return.

Just remember; it's the internet. Everyone has access and it can bring out the A*hole in all of us =P
 

canuck_in_uk

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Rob_TO said:
All efforts at this point should be in securing a visitor visa for him, or finding a way to travel for her.
Agreed. At this stage, 6 weeks into an online relationship and never having met, there is no point in the OP looking into sponsorship.
 

Koifish76

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on-hold said:
'Stereotyping' hogwash -- I described a scenario that plays out again and again in rural Thailand, based on my years of experience living there, translating letters for village women who don't speak English, talking with foreigner men who got their fingers and other organs burned, reading the papers. etc. If you're unhappy that it occurs, don't read forums where you'll hear about it. I didn't say a single thing that ascribed qualities or behaviours to people based on their ethnicity, and if you search this forum you'll find a couple of detailed posts where I discuss how the differences between Thai marriage customs and Western marriage customs contribute to this dynamic.

Original Poster, you mistook my questions. I have no opinion about the truth or falsity of your relationship at all -- its red flags won't make me think it's false, and your belief in it won't make me think it's true, only time can tell on these fronts. I'm not CIC, which has to decide. When I asked 'how an isolated disabled Canadian woman and a Togolese fruit seller met' I thought it was clear that I meant that as a question that you will have to answer, at least implicitly, for CIC. A lot of the proof you supply as to your relationship will have this question as its underpinning, and I think it is VERY likely that your disability will cause them to raise their standard of evidence. Is that fair to you? It is not. Will they do this explicitly? They will not. It will simply be an exaggerated version of their "Does this relationship conform to the cultural standards etc. etc."

And above all, the general tone of your last post, which I would paraphrase as "I must have this relationship to give my life value" should be avoided when dealing with CIC. Why? Because people who are desperate are the easiest to trick. CIC's criteria are already conservative -- they like marriages that look like other marriages. Yours won't. If Maude had been Canadian and Harold had been Cuban, they would have had some huge hurdles to get over.

As for your point about 'tact or sensitivity', tact or sensitivity about what? Do you mean that you came here for advice, but that you don't want anyone to mention the real possibility that you are being scammed? Even though that possibility is the thing that you need to explicitly acknowledge so that you can demonstrate to CIC that it is not occurring? If you re-read my email, you'll see that I have not actually said a single thing that casts aspersions on your relationship -- instead, I suggested practical things that you can do that will both protect you, and let the relationship continue, and warned you about a couple of danger signs. (Incidentally, one of the biggest danger signs is refusing to acknowledge other danger signs -- 'headlong' is the style, for the men who jump off of Pattaya hotels) Perhaps you missed the extensive parts of my email where I commended you for finding a companion, and commented on the naturalness of this. Finally, think about this:

I married a Thai woman. Here are the things people think when they hear that: bar girl, prostitute, gold-digger, ping-pong ball, Pattaya, jerk-who-marries-Asian-woman-because-she-never-talks-back. The first six of those don't bother me, because I don't look down on bar girls, and I married my wife because I love her -- I could spend my life apologizing for her ("I'd like you to meet my wife, she's a Thai NURSE") and our marriage, but why bother? The last of these irritates me because the truth is actually closer to the opposite :-X but aside from that, no big deal. Here in Canada people have a lot of dumb ideas about immigrants; they have a lot of dumb ideas about people who marry immigrants; and your situation, blind, married to a Togolese guy with a bunch of kids, is going to trigger all of these dumb ideas. Spending your life feeling sensitive about that is going to be a bit of a chore.
:eek: :eek: :eek:
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
1,120
131
benjis_monikuss said:
I think people can be incredibly insensitive, even if it comes from a good place. The only advice we can give with sound knowledge is based on our own immigration process, we cannot begin to make judgement calls on the personal aspects of peoples lives. It is not our place to step in if the relationship involves same sex couples, 30 year age gaps, a collision of nationalities or disabilities. It's one thing to give advice, but it's another to judge and belittle based off our knowledge, or lack thereof. This could also be a cultural barrier, there are tens of thousands of people on this forum from hundreds of different countries. Why would people assume because the OP has a disability that she is more likely to be scammed? Perhaps because of the stereotypes of our present civilization, the OP is in fact, more wary than the rest of us would be. It is wonderful and terrible at the same time that our technology has developed exponentially over the past 30 odd years to allow people from every corner of the earth to cross paths. Just because there are bad people out there, doesn't mean we should instantly assume that every case with those specifics is the same; it's like eating a terrible burger from one restaurant and pledging never to try another burger again (how dull life would be, right?). Next time we'll just pop our head in the kitchen and check things out first. Only the OP can decide what is best for her in the end, and no one has the right to stop someone from loving another person. A little bit more tact could be taken in the way some posters approach a response; sure you sit around answering 'silly' questions from people on this forum all day but that doesn't grant a God complex and it shouldn't stop you from treating anyone in these threads the way you would treat your own family; no one is born with the answers to everything.

My only advice is that perhaps you could get a couple of free consults from a few immigration lawyers who may have more experience with this issue then half the people on this forum combined. This place is a Utopia of invaluable information and you'll be hard pressed to find a question that doesn't have an answer, but when you can't find one, the next step is to speak to someone who gets paid and studied to deal with situations just like this one. I truly wish you (and every single other person going through this ridiculous process) the best of luck and I hope that everything works out in the end. Every living thing on this planet deserves to feel love and give it in return.

Just remember; it's the internet. Everyone has access and it can bring out the A*hole in all of us =P

People like you are part of the reason that so many Westerners lose their shirts, marrying in the developing world -- because you assume that marriage is the same institution in West Africa, SE Asia, or India as it is in Canada. When I try to explain some of the hazards that exist, you get up in arms because I"m being 'insensitive' for pointing out risks. Here in the West, if you question 'true love', you are a jerk; a lot of Westerners don't realize that 'true love' as the basis of marriage doesn't exist everywhere. Have you ever translated a letter for a rural Thai farmer who brings it to you? "What's this?" you ask. "A letter from a guy I met on the Internet." You translate the letter, he's asking her to marry him -- they've never spoken or met. "What do you know about this guy?" you ask. "I might love him," she answers. It is impossible to identify what is a scam and what is self-deception -- frequently marriages have elements of both, and when they break down, often one person loses everything. It can happen to either party.

You either don't realize the danger the OP is in, or you don't care. Let me point out some things that are real hazards:

1) She doesn't realize that the part of the world she is advertising in has a fully-developed sex industry for women.

2) She is so naive about the visa process that she heard the price of $5000 for a tourist visa and didn't realize it was impossible. This shows that the subject of money has already come up, AND that an outrageous fee was communicated to her. The only question is whether it came from someone cheating her boyfriend, or if it came from her boyfriend cheating her, and there is no way to distinguish which is which.

3) She is desperate.

4) Her boyfriend lives close to hotels, works with them too -- in other words, in the touristy areas. These are where bumsters also live.

Here's an article about West African sex tourism: http://indianajo.com/2013/03/lets-talk-about-sex-female-sex-tourism-in-the-gambia.html

Here is a very good article about how this sort of exchange is different from our traditional recognition of sex work. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2401788/Sex-tourism-Meet-middle-aged-middle-class-women-Britains-female-sex-tourists.html

I have no idea if Togo is similar.


I have met people like you, who either don't see that people are in danger, or don't care, because explaining might be 'embarrassing'. There is nothing embarrassing about the OP's situation, it is completely normal -- it's not embarrassing to want to be with a foreign partner, and it's not embarrassing to consider either the risks to her, or the obstacles that CIC will raise; it's not embarrassing that she is blind, because that is normal. These are all normal parts of normal life, and if you're embarrassed by them, then you're an idiot. She's gotten good advice from other people about what is and what is not possible, and I've given her the best advice I can from my experience on this issue.
 

benjis_monikuss

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24-02-2014
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27-02-2014
LANDED..........
09-03-2014
on-hold said:
People like you are part of the reason that so many Westerners lose their shirts, marrying in the developing world -- because you assume that marriage is the same institution in West Africa, SE Asia, or India as it is in Canada. When I try to explain some of the hazards that exist, you get up in arms because I"m being 'insensitive' for pointing out risks. Here in the West, if you question 'true love', you are a jerk; a lot of Westerners don't realize that 'true love' as the basis of marriage doesn't exist everywhere. Have you ever translated a letter for a rural Thai farmer who brings it to you? "What's this?" you ask. "A letter from a guy I met on the Internet." You translate the letter, he's asking her to marry him -- they've never spoken or met. "What do you know about this guy?" you ask. "I might love him," she answers. It is impossible to identify what is a scam and what is self-deception -- frequently marriages have elements of both, and when they break down, often one person loses everything. It can happen to either party.

You either don't realize the danger the OP is in, or you don't care. Let me point out some things that are real hazards:

1) She doesn't realize that the part of the world she is advertising in has a fully-developed sex industry for women.

2) She is so naive about the visa process that she heard the price of $5000 for a tourist visa and didn't realize it was impossible. This shows that the subject of money has already come up, AND that an outrageous fee was communicated to her. The only question is whether it came from someone cheating her boyfriend, or if it came from her boyfriend cheating her, and there is no way to distinguish which is which.

3) She is desperate.

4) Her boyfriend lives close to hotels, works with them too -- in other words, in the touristy areas. These are where bumsters also live.

Here's an article about West African sex tourism: http://indianajo.com/2013/03/lets-talk-about-sex-female-sex-tourism-in-the-gambia.html

Here is a very good article about how this sort of exchange is different from our traditional recognition of sex work. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2401788/Sex-tourism-Meet-middle-aged-middle-class-women-Britains-female-sex-tourists.html

I have no idea if Togo is similar.


I have met people like you, who either don't see that people are in danger, or don't care, because explaining might be 'embarrassing'. There is nothing embarrassing about the OP's situation, it is completely normal -- it's not embarrassing to want to be with a foreign partner, and it's not embarrassing to consider either the risks to her, or the obstacles that CIC will raise; it's not embarrassing that she is blind, because that is normal. These are all normal parts of normal life, and if you're embarrassed by them, then you're an idiot. She's gotten good advice from other people about what is and what is not possible, and I've given her the best advice I can from my experience on this issue.
People like me don't call out other people just for having an opinion.
 

scylla

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01-10-2010
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05-10-2010
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05-10-2010
Rob_TO said:
I don't think there has ever been a conjugal application approved ever, in which the sponsor and applicant had not actually met in person at least 1 time. Would be curious to see if there has been.

First off, to qualify for conjugal you must be in a relationship for a minimum of 1 year. And second, the relationship must be a "marriage-like" relationship. Frankly I don't think it's possible to develop a marriage like relationship (in the eyes of CIC) without ever having actually met your partner.
Agreed with all of the above. Conjugal has zero chance of working if the two individuals have never met each other. Conjugal requires a "marriage like" relationship where the two individuals have met several times and have other characteristics to their relationship that are typical of a married couple (e.g. share property, joint bank accounts, wills naming each other, etc.).

In this case if they can meet, they can marry. So conjugal won't work and isn't an option.
 

zardoz

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steerpike said:
I have a horrible feeling it's related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping_pong_show (DON'T click the link if you are likely to be offended)
 

taffy7

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zardoz said:
I have a horrible feeling it's related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping_pong_show (DON'T click the link if you are likely to be offended)
omg i just took a look .. :eek: :eek: :eek: omg ping pong lmao
 

Matt the Aussie

Hero Member
Mar 27, 2014
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Category........
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Ottawa
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Pre-Assessed..
AOR Received.
04-07-2013
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28-01-2014
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18-02-2014
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12-03-2014
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11-04-2014
^^ I haven't seen the page but I know what it's referencing and it's likely NSFW...

To the topic at hand...I am not blind myself. But I do know what it's like to have feelings for someone over the internet. For us, my online girlfriend (later wife) is Canadian and I am the foreigner. I came to Canada to work and to be with the person I love. I am from what many would say is a respectable country not often involved in these sorts of scams - Australia. But the amount of counsel she got from friends and family to stay away from me was intense. To this day, her family still don't trust me fully. This is despite the fact that my wife never sponsored me, I earned my PR on my own merits and skills, I never received EI, I now make more money than she does etc. etc...

Even if this man from Togo is everything you believe him to be, people will continue to discriminate against him and against you as long as you are together. Unfortunately, you are probably used to that already with your disability. I'd like to say this is just a Canadian problem but I know it would be same where I am from too.

This includes CIC, by the way. If this is something you want to take on, all the power to you and best of luck, but it will be your job to convince CIC that he is genuine. As others have suggested, start gathering documents NOW.

People (myself included) are concerned for your safety. Please don't mistake that for being told your feelings can't possibly be real, or his for that matter. We are simply being real with you about the dangers out there. And hey, let me tell you, love felt over the internet or on a phonecall is very easy to continue. You can take a break from it if you are annoyed. Living with someone you've loved long distance is VERY different to your email and phone conversations and comes with all sorts of challenges.

My wife and I are a success story of how it can work. You've also heard from a few others in this thread and I bet there's several more spread out through the Family Class boards here. Just PLEASE be careful and try living with this man first.