Did it really worth it?

[truesmile]

What is this? Bash the opinionator's day?! Folks this is not even graphic, if you can't handle a few choice words ... "have a smile and a Coke and shut the ... " ~ Richard Pryor

Don't quite get the "democracy" thing either, whazzup with that?!

 

[Abe1004]

Don't quite get the "democracy" thing either, whazzup with that?!

Dont bother understanding it. OP understanding of "democracy" is claiming that europeans get the breaks. Way to go OP. Thats surely practising democracy by creating a commotion with your baseless and speculative statement. If democracy means running mouth about something that has no base, then you are surely ahead.

 

[frege]

Great point. I gave up looking at opportunities with the public service because the first questions you are asked on any govt job application is whether you can speak French fluently. That eliminates 80% of the applicants, at least. If you are from a minority group, you can check the box on the application and perhaps get a better chance, but I'd say French is the biggest impediment to anyone trying to get his/her foot in the door to one of those cradle to grave government positions.

First of all, only 40% of federal jobs require any level of bilingualism.

Source: http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/html/myths_mythes_2008_e.php

Second, I have a strong hunch that Canadian-born children of immigrants are equally or more likely than other Canadians to be bilingual in French and English. I don't have statistics on this, but a reasonable approximation can be obtained as follows. In 2006, immigrants between the ages of 15 and 24 who had immigrated before 1991 (hence who were all 9 or less when they came to Canada) had a 23% bilingualism rate (French/English). Non-immigrants in the same age range were 24% bilingual.

Source: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/tbt/Rp-eng.cfm?TABID=1&LANG=E&APATH=3&DETAIL=0&DIM=0&FL=A&FREE=0&GC=0&GK=0&GRP=1&PID=89449&PRID=0&PTYPE=88971,97154&S=0&SHOWALL=0&SUB=0&Temporal=2006&THEME=70&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

So, at least as concerns immigrants' Canadian children, there is a comparable rate of bilingualism to the native population. And I believe the majority of members of visible minorities who are in a position to apply for federal service jobs ("available" in the workforce) are either Canadian-born or have a high degree of integration.

Finally, I would dispute your 80% figure, even for the bilingual jobs. While only 19% of the working population is bilingual, 29% of those with a university degree are.

Also, how would the public service work otherwise? It can't consist entirely of English-only and French-only positions, or nobody could talk to one another.

 

[frege]

You are wrong. I am currently working in the education industry in China and also have experience working at a University there. Unless we are talking one of a tiny handful of elite schools in Beijing and Shanghai, it's slim pickins for quality post-secondary education for the vast majority in China.

Don't think the past two generations of supposedly "priviledged" white males are not having similar problems with underemployment and offshoring as every other demographic. The past five years haven't been a cakewalk for anyone (except the banksters and CEOs).

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have met enough brilliant Chinese graduate students to know that the top institutions over there have nothing to envy US universities for except their money. Granted, this is anecdotal, but if you fairly compare an average Chinese university to North Podunk State College, I'm not sure the result will be that different.

And though white males - I am one - may be facing tough times, that doesn't change the reality that there is a high degree of discrimination against non-whites.

Consider this recent study from BC:

The study, which sent thousands of resumés to Canadian employers, found those with English names like Jill Wilson or John Martin received interview callbacks 40 per cent more often than identical resumes with names like Sana Khan or Lei Li.

http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/media/releases/2009/mr-09-056.html

 

[gongdi]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have met enough brilliant Chinese graduate students to know that the top institutions over there have nothing to envy US universities for except their money. Granted, this is anecdotal, but if you fairly compare an average Chinese university to North Podunk State College, I'm not sure the result will be that different.

There are many brilliant students in this country, but it is largely due to the fact that many parents enroll their children into a number of schools. A great number of young children I teach attend classes 7 days a week. This is because education is key, as the gaokao test at the end of high school practically determines their entire future.
Also, a third tier University in a small city here is an absolute dump and could not even compare with even the worst University in North America. Yes, it's unfortunate, but the fact is Canada all in all has a better post-secondary system than China. Surely even most proud Chinese people would admit to that.

 

[CanadianJeepGuy]

Re: Reply: Is it really worth it?

CJG...really? You feel the need to call someone an idiot?....

Yes.

 

[CanadianJeepGuy]

75% of the country is still of white European ancestry. Many of those are 3 to 5 generations here and well established. The same cannot be said for the visible minorities that came later and you expect the statistics to represent a numerical equivalency? There is little to no discrimination that intentionally blocks anyone from improving their lot in life. We have laws in place to discourage employers and institutions from such practices. Considering that visible minorities make up 15% of the total population you would therefore expect they would represent 15% of the varying political, social and economic levels that the remaining white European population represent.

I get very tired of hearing the complaint that Canada discriminates against anyone by intentional practice. Read the Constitution and the Charter. Keep your creative statistical analysis to yourself and your conspiracy theorist cohorts.

 

[frege]

75% of the country is still of white European ancestry. Many of those are 3 to 5 generations here and well established. The same cannot be said for the visible minorities that came later and you expect the statistics to represent a numerical equivalency? There is little to no discrimination that intentionally blocks anyone from improving their lot in life. We have laws in place to discourage employers and institutions from such practices. Considering that visible minorities make up 15% of the total population you would therefore expect they would represent 15% of the varying political, social and economic levels that the remaining white European population represent.

Yes, absolutely - in terms of Candian-born visible minorities vs Canadian-born whites, if there were no discrimination in society, I would indeed expect equivalence. This is especially true if you adjust for education level.

I get very tired of hearing the complaint that Canada discriminates against anyone by intentional practice. Read the Constitution and the Charter. Keep your creative statistical analysis to yourself and your conspiracy theorist cohorts.

You didn't keep to yourself your opinion that "The worst thing any new immigrant can do it move into the "ghettos" new immigrants create for themselves." If you're entitled to say that, then I'm also entitled to express my opinion that discrimination is a serious problem in Canada.

As for my "creative statistical analyses", I'm quoting statistics analyzed by others, such as the Canadian Senate or UBC. I'd like to know if you think it makes me a conspiracy theorist when I hear that there's a 40% discrepancy in job interviews based on having an English name vs. a Chinese name, and I think there's something wrong there that hasn't been fixed by our laws. What exactly do you find wrong with the conclusions of that study, anyway?

As for whether these employers who discriminate are doing it intentionally or not, the result is the same for people who miss out on jobs because of their ethnicity. Personally, I believe that some of that discrimination is unconscious and some of it is conscious. But until now, I don't think I had said that any part of it was intentional, just that it existed.

 

[Abe1004]

I get very tired of hearing the complaint that Canada discriminates against anyone by intentional practice. Read the Constitution and the Charter. Keep your creative statistical analysis to yourself and your conspiracy theorist cohorts.

I totally agree. Matter of fact, visible minorities are given an edge during consideration for some govermental jobs such as corrections officer, police officer, CBSA officer, tax officer and etc.

So i am with you on this one, there is very little to no discrimination going around in Canada. Just some people prefer blaming their lack of English and lack of desire to achieve something better at the system. In the end of the day, system is far from perfect, but all these people still want to come. If they want to live their lives way they lived it back home with corruption (in a lot of those countries) and criminal actvity (again in a lot of these countries) in order to make easy money thats really their choice.


That doesnt mean theres no honest living in Canada or that there is no opportunity for visible minorities.

 

[NewDad]

I have a question for all the white job applicants who feel that they need to learn French to get a government job. If it is one of the job qualifications to speak a second language then why not learn one? Of course immigrants will have the advantage there. They have their own language plus English. I have a brother who is with CIC and he went to night school to learn French AND German to get an advantage and get the job. (Unfortunately CIC employees are not allowed to discuss their job with family members or there would be no need for me to be here).

Also, I lived in Canada for 50 years. I know there is prejudice against certain groups of immigrants. It is something all immigrants must learn to deal with if they want to live in Canada. Some examples are prejudice against the smell of certain foods cooking. Prejudice against couples with a large age difference. Prejudice against cultures who choose not to imtermingle. Prejudice against cultures who use their own language when there are English speaking Canadians present. Prejudice against Native Americans. And the list goes on. Canada is not free of prejudice. Deal with it how you will.

 

[CanadianJeepGuy]

Yes, absolutely - in terms of Candian-born visible minorities vs Canadian-born whites, if there were no discrimination in society, I would indeed expect equivalence. This is especially true if you adjust for education level.

That is a false expectation since you are making an assessment based purely on colour.

You didn't keep to yourself your opinion that "The worst thing any new immigrant can do it move into the "ghettos" new immigrants create for themselves." If you're entitled to say that, then I'm also entitled to express my opinion that discrimination is a serious problem in Canada.

Since I have literally worked in every neighbourhood in Toronto, and now soon Winnipeg, there is a reason why areas of Toronto and the GTA get nicknames such as little Italy, little Portugal, Chinatown, Asiancourt, Maltanistan and Bramladesh. No one forces anyone to live in any particular neighbour. Newcomers do that themselves. They want to live in neighbourhoods that reflect themselves and what they are familiar with. They come to Canada for all the perks real or imagined but are resistant to accommodate the change necessary to feel a part of the existing, evolving culture. By this they discriminate against the existing culture and by extension bypass many of the opportunities afforded them to become a more functioning part.

As for my "creative statistical analyses", I'm quoting statistics analyzed by others, such as the Canadian Senate or UBC. I'd like to know if you think it makes me a conspiracy theorist when I hear that there's a 40% discrepancy in job interviews based on having an English name vs. a Chinese name, and I think there's something wrong there that hasn't been fixed by our laws. What exactly do you find wrong with the conclusions of that study, anyway?

Maybe because there are 40% more Anglo-Saxon names than Chinese. Since the Chinese make up 4% of the total population. My wife is a Filipina and has both an Anglo-Saxon first and last name and has yet to be called for an interview.
Maybe you can explain why we have 2 official languages yet the CIBC offer bank machine features in Chinese...no Polish, Ukrainian, Tagalog, Persian, Swahili, Japanese, Fijian....etc.

As for whether these employers who discriminate are doing it intentionally or not, the result is the same for people who miss out on jobs because of their ethnicity. Personally, I believe that some of that discrimination is unconscious and some of it is conscious. But until now, I don't think I had said that any part of it was intentional, just that it existed.

"Self imposed Xenophobia exists because lot of these immigrants were never accepted in the main stream by their Canadian counterparts due to subtle indirect racism and discrimination ..its not that they did not try to integrate into the mainstream ."

Seems to me you think that there is an intentional movement to shut out newcomers. You fail to consider that the largest portion of immigrants come from countries that have no ethnic diversity. To then come to Canada and be surrounded by every ethnicity on the planet as well as gender and sexual equality completely unheard of in their own countries......your statistics are valueless.

 

[CdnandTrini]

Reply: Is it really worth it?

Yes.

-2.

 

[gongdi]

You will always find ethnic enclaves, whether the country is a so-called melting pot or cultural mosaic. In many cases, it boils down to economic class. Orleans (the largely French-speaking 'white' Ottawa suburb I grew up in) has become much more diverse in the past 15 years due to immigrants making more money and moving to wealthier neighbourhoods. It's great to see people breaking out of their enclaves.

As far as 'racism' goes, I fail to think of another country on this planet that tries harder to accomodate diversity than Canada. It's impossible to stamp out ignorance, but most Canadians try hard as humanly possible to accept other cultures. That cannot be said for the homogeneous and conservative cultures that make up most countries. When my Chinese wife and our mixed daughter enter a restaurant in Canada, I do not expect everybody to turn around, stare and point, which is what we often get in these parts. Canada's acceptance of interracial families is one of the reasons this endless CIC marathon nightmare will be worthwhile for my family in the end.

 

[margobear96]

This is a big beef of mine... well more specifically my spouse. She needs to pay thousands, take exams and wait a year or more just to practice in Canada (she was a physical therapist in the US). It is even more confusing since her profession is listed under NATFA as an "in demand" profession. If they classify it as a profession they like for you to have, why make it so hard to practice? The US seems a bit less restrictive about this - they allow Canadian PTs to practice much easier.

This is super annoying...but shouldn't be confusing. Federal government determines what is an "in demand" profession...presumably based on feedback from employers and statistics showing what the country as a whole needs. Licensing and professional organizations set (re)qualification standards. They're incentivized to make this as difficult and onerous as possible in the interest of reducing competition for their existing members -- whether those members are Canadian-born and educated or that immigrant who managed to requalify two weeks ago.

 

[CanadianJeepGuy]

This is super annoying...but shouldn't be confusing. Federal government determines what is an "in demand" profession...presumably based on feedback from employers and statistics showing what the country as a whole needs. Licensing and professional organizations set (re)qualification standards. They're incentivized to make this as difficult and onerous as possible in the interest of reducing competition for their existing members -- whether those members are Canadian-born and educated or that immigrant who managed to requalify two weeks ago.

I would disagree with this. The engineering association in Manitoba has actually made it far easier to get accreditation. Reducing the number of exams required and establishing a mentorship programme through the U of M at a fraction of the cost of what it used to be. The provincial government has also created financial bridging loans at low or no interest which can be paid back over 5 years after you get employment in your field.
Professional organizations make money off fees paid by their members. They will go to great lengths to expand their membership and increase their earnings. That is in their best interests.