Conditional PR Question

[Rob_TO]

Just to clarify. The earlier suggestion, was that its possible to just ignore the COPR, and have her finish her contract and come back in 2015, while keeping proof we have been communicating and visiting each other. Which i think would sound like a great backup solution.

You can delay landing and becoming a PR, but if the expiry date on COPR is June 2014, then your wife MUST land sometime before that time or else the COPR is voided, and you'll probably have to start over the entire PR application from scratch again. So the longest you could delay is the exact date on COPR, less 1 day. Not until 2015.

However, this other solution to move to Shanghai, means I would have to have Chinese documents translated and and submitted to the CIC, which I guess they can still reject?

This would just be proving cohabitation. There is no reason that CIC would reject it, if you're asked to submit proof. People do this all the time when applying for common-law PRs while living in China or any other country.

Also, as an FYI, I just got back a reply from a Lawyer in Toronto, and they have stated that they think the PR Condition of cohabitation applies to living in Canada, and not overseas. However, they are uncertain.

There is NO condition whatsoever that states a PR and sponsor MUST live in Canada. As long as they meet the 2-out-of-5-years condition to maintain PR status, that is all that matters.

There is also nothing in the CIC guidelines on conditional PR that says the cohabitation rule is waived if one spouse is living overseas. So i'm not sure what this lawyer is basing their statement on. Unless they can show you where CIC states it, don't trust them.

 

[scylla]

Hi Rob,

Just to clarify. The earlier suggestion, was that its possible to just ignore the COPR, and have her finish her contract and come back in 2015, while keeping proof we have been communicating and visiting each other. Which i think would sound like a great backup solution.

No - you can't ignore the COPR. The COPR is use it or lose it. If your wife doesn't land in Canada before the expiry date on the CORP then you'll have to start the PR process again from scratch.

 

[canadianwoman]

She can just come to Canada before her COPR expires in June 2014, officially land and become a PR, then leave. Once her contract is over, she can then come back to Canada just like any other PR could. You can send her the PR card from Canada; or if you are with her, have it sent to a relative in Canada who can send it on to you. She just has to stay in Canada 2 years out of 5 to keep her PR status, so one year working in China won`t hurt her status.

 

[bchung]

Having her land before the COPR expires is not the issue as she can take a vacation week off. But afterwards, she would need to leave and go back to work in China. But at that point, do I have to leave with her? Or can I stay and just keep logs of our relationship like before. Unfortunately it wouldn't constitute cohabitation, however, it would still give proof it is not a marriage of convenience. Then in 2015, she would be moving over here permanently, hopefully working in the Toronto branch of the company.

But if this solution has a huge risk of rejection, then I want to know ahead of time, so I may need to go for the second option, which is to Move over and prove Cohabitation.

 

[Rob_TO]

She can just come to Canada before her COPR expires in June 2014, officially land and become a PR, then leave. Once her contract is over, she can then come back to Canada just like any other PR could. You can send her the PR card from Canada; or if you are with her, have it sent to a relative in Canada who can send it on to you. She just has to stay in Canada 2 years out of 5 to keep her PR status, so one year working in China won`t hurt her status.

The issue is that the new conditional PR rules state quite clearly that sponsor and applicant must cohabitate during the first 2 years of PR.

So technically if after getting PR the wife returns to China and sponsor lives in Canada for a full year, that is clearly breaking that rule.

However since nobody knows how this will be enfirced, it's impossible to say what the effect will be. Personally I don't think CIC will bother with cases that are not specifically reported to them due to a break-up... but really who knows.

 

[Rob_TO]

But if this solution has a huge risk of rejection, then I want to know ahead of time, so I may need to go for the second option, which is to Move over and prove Cohabitation.

The thing is, nobody knows. Everyone can tell you their own opinion on the subject, but nobody knows for sure.

No matter what people tell you now, we won't know until we see some actual cases of this new conditional PR law, and how CIC is choosing to enforce the new cohabitation requirement.

 

[bchung]

So the safest option for the PR would be option 2, which would be to have me move over and prove cohabitation overseas.

Ok, I will use this as a last resort, if we cannot find employment by June 2014.

 

[canadianwoman]

The issue is that the new conditional PR rules state quite clearly that sponsor and applicant must cohabitate during the first 2 years of PR.

So technically if after getting PR the wife returns to China and sponsor lives in Canada for a full year, that is clearly breaking that rule.

However since nobody knows how this will be enfirced, it's impossible to say what the effect will be. Personally I don't think CIC will bother with cases that are not specifically reported to them due to a break-up... but really who knows.

I agree. I think CIC will probably not check very carefully unless the sponsor complains his or her spouse left within the two years. Nor do I think they would insist on deporting a woman in a genuine marriage just because the couple did not live together for the first year, but then did start to cohabit. However, no one knows yet how strict CIC will be with this.

 

[truesmile]

Agree 100% with 'canadianwoman', CIC does not nor ever will have the resources to track/verify all these "proofs", especially when no complainant presents a case to be investigated. The purpose of the Conditional PR is to be a deterrent to "fraudulent marriages" (you have seen the complaints here on this forum I am sure) . . . since yours in NOT, I wouldn't worry so much.

 

[bchung]

I have read a bit more detail on this.

If I go with option 1, which is to stay in Canada, and let my wife land in June 2014 (before COPR expires), and then have her finish her contract and move over in June 2015 and stays here for a year, and the if the CIC revokes the PR after the 2 years, there can be an appeal process, however, I don't know if there would be any grounds to appeal, other then the 1 year she stayed between 2015-2016. And when I brought this up to the lawyer, he stated that no lawyer would have experience appealing this type of case.

My other concern is that they prematurely try to evaluate the case, before we get to June 2015.

 

[Rob_TO]

Agree 100% with 'canadianwoman', CIC does not nor ever will have the resources to track/verify all these "proofs", especially when no complainant presents a case to be investigated. The purpose of the Conditional PR is to be a deterrent to "fraudulent marriages" (you have seen the complaints here on this forum I am sure) . . . since yours in NOT, I wouldn't worry so much.

I tend to agree with this also... however according to the CIC documentation on the topic the CBSA (border services) will be very active in the conditional PR regulations. And for anyone entering Canada, in talking to the immigration officer at the airport it will be VERY easy for the officer to see that the person has conditional PR, and to determine how long they've been out of Canada, and if their sponsor has been with them during that time. So with just a few questions they can see if they've satisfied the cohabitation requirement. Now the big question is if the CBSA officer actually reports such cases to the CIC, or not.

The main area of concern for CIC here, is that this marriage could be a fraudulent one, i.e. that the PR paid someone to marry/sponsor them, with the intention of separating after the conditional period is over (not that this is the case here!). This is one of the main types of immigration fraud. In these types of marriages of convenience cases, nobody would ever voluntarily complain or report something to the CIC so the only way they can crack down on it is by doing proactive investigations.

 

[bchung]

I believe what Rob has brought up would actually make sense. And I believe its possible CBSA has the details reported back to the CIC.

But if that was the case, does that mean they are no longer "randomly" investigating? Or is it that they will investigate every case?


Has anyone had experience dealing with (getting real answers) from the CIC when they call in? When I mean real answers, specific answers to their cases/issues, instead of a URL or references just to read this section etc.

 

[Rob_TO]

But if that was the case, does that mean they are no longer "randomly" investigating? Or is it that they will investigate every case?

The CIC site said they are doing both... investigations based on tips and facts CIC is made aware of, and also random checks.

Look it's not hard for an immigration officer at the airport to quickly see if the conditions are being met. example:
Officer: (sees they are conditional PR holder) Where are you travelling from?
PR: China
Officer: How long and for what purpose were you there?
PR: For 1 year, working.
Officer: Is your spouse/sponsor still in China, or in Canada now?
PR: In Canada
Officer: Has your spouse/sponsor been residing in Canada during the time you were in China?
PR: Yes.

So the officer easily knows the conditions of PR have not been met (unless you lie). Do they immediately send the PR holder now to secondary immigration check? Inform CIC? Or not even ask about spouse and just let them enter Canada as a PR? These are the big questions on how aggressively the cohabitation rules will be enforced.

Has anyone had experience dealing with (getting real answers) from the CIC when they call in? When I mean real answers, specific answers to their cases/issues, instead of a URL or references just to read this section etc.

You will not get any useful answers from the CIC. If you call the customer service number 5 different times, you'll probably get 5 different answers and recommendations. The only way to know will be seeing the actual experiences of conditional PRs in various situations as they happen.

 

[opmama]

The main area of concern for CIC here, is that this marriage could be a fraudulent one, i.e. that the PR paid someone to marry/sponsor them, with the intention of separating after the conditional period is over (not that this is the case here!). This is one of the main types of immigration fraud. In these types of marriages of convenience cases, nobody would ever voluntarily complain or report something to the CIC so the only way they can crack down on it is by doing proactive investigations.

I don't know how active CIC will be, and what privacy laws permit, but there are other flags they could use. Does the spouse register for a DL, SIN, pay taxes - lots of ways to look in government data to see if two people appear to be generating the usual activity of cohabiting. I have no idea if they will do this or what would be legal, but I suspect there are more ways for these cases to come to light than someone complaining, and I wouldn't want to be one of the early test cases.

I'm not saying bchung's case is fraudulent at all, but it may raise suspicions, particularly if he stays in Canada for the next two years and she works in China with only brief visits. That's not "typical" behavior for newlyweds who have the choice to be together, and all it potentially takes is one person to flag the case.

 

[canadianwoman]

If I go with option 1, which is to stay in Canada, and let my wife land in June 2014 (before COPR expires), and then have her finish her contract and move over in June 2015 and stays here for a year, and the if the CIC revokes the PR after the 2 years, there can be an appeal process, however, I don't know if there would be any grounds to appeal, other then the 1 year she stayed between 2015-2016. And when I brought this up to the lawyer, he stated that no lawyer would have experience appealing this type of case.

No lawyer can have any experience with this yet, because the conditional PRs are not yet 2 years old. Which means the first cases will be `test`cases, therefore expensive and long. Plus you want to avoid having to appeal in any case. And since the border agent can easily see when she comes back to Canada that she did not fulfil the conditional PR requirements, maybe they wouldn`t even let her in, or she would be `flagged`for further investigation. Even if CIC decided to allow it, you would still want to avoid that hassle. I`m thinking now it would be better for you to go stay with her in China for a year, unless your career just couldn`t accomodate that.