Conditional PR Question

[bchung]

I was under the impression they may not be as knowledgeable as lawyers would be, so no I have not tried any consultants yet.

 

[can_4visa]

I was under the impression they may not be as knowledgeable as lawyers would be, so no I have not tried any consultants yet.

Just post your query in the main thread, some senior member can help you in better way, check out this http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/2012-10-26.asp

 

[Rob_TO]

Hi Truesmile, I am not worried about the renewal at the moment. I am more concerned about them revoking the PR, once she leaves to finish her contract.

Since this is such a new rule, there have been no cases yet here to see how CIC will enforce or follow the new rules. You can read some info here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/bulletins/2012/ob480.asp#sec02.4
To maintain their permanent resident status, the sponsored spouse or partner is required to cohabit in a conjugal relationship with their sponsor for a continuous period of two years after the day on which they became a permanent resident.
While the regulations require a “continuous” period of two years of cohabitation, from time to time, one or the other partner may leave the home for work or business travel, family obligations, and so on.

So they make allowances for spouses to live apart, due to work reasons. However these separations are supposed to be temporary and short, and obviously living apart for a full year from 2014 to 2015, would go beyond this.

Here is how they will enforce the rule:
The sponsored spouse or partner must provide evidence of their compliance with the condition if an officer requests such evidence because they have reason to believe that the sponsored person is not complying or has not complied with the condition (for example, when a tip is received or a CIC of CBSA officer has information indicating non-compliance), or if requested as part of a random assessment of the overall level of compliance with the condition by the permanent residents who are or were subject to the condition.

So they will mostly be working off of direct reports where a sponsor has divorced the applicant, and wants to revoke their PR. Also it says CBSA (border officers) may be able to launch investigations, so you would have to be careful if your wife travels back to Canada on her conditional PR card after being in China a long time, and they notice you are not with her.

And also it says they will be doing "random assessments" of cases to ensure compliance. If they don't choose your file for a random check, then you could be fine. If you are selected at random, then who knows what the outcome will be. Perhaps they will be very strict about the cohabiting, or perhaps they will let it go if you can prove you were in a legitimate relationship over the time not living together. At this time nobody can answer this until we actually see some cases over the next 2 years.

Also be cautious of talking to lawyers and consultants, since most likely they don't know either. Many lawyers and consultants give wrong info to their clients in PR cases, so if you do go talk to one, make sure it's a good and highly recommended one.

 

[opmama]

I think you should consult with a lawyer about the conditional PR. Since this is fairly new, I doubt if anybody can give you accurate advice. Good luck!

This. Bchung, because this is new, no one really knows how interpretation and enforcement is going to work. Rob_TO quoted the relevant parts, and to me, that sounds very much like the two of you need to have a shared home, and *travel* for work is okay (which is very different than her having a full-time job in China, in my opinion). My opinion doesn't matter, other than it shows how differently we are all reading the same lines of text. And that might well happen with CIC officers as well. Lots of room for interpretation, and not all of it will necessarily go your way.

I guess my question for Bchung - why risk it? I read your story, and my first thought is that you are very fortunate and there are an awful lot of people waiting in long-distance relationships who would love to be in your shoes. I understand it's a change from what you were expecting, and might create more challenges for your wife to find work, but if it were me, I'd take a serious look at beginning your life together in Canada and figuring out the employment pieces from there.

 

[bchung]

First off, I want to thank everyone here for their support and honesty.

To address opmama,

Another reason why she wants to finish her contract is because the job is with a company that has a branch office in Toronto. Which would make it much easier to get employed in that office, if she had some years of experience with the company.

Does anyone actually think my moving over to Shanghai to satisfy the cohabitation clause will help the situation? Or everyone is somewhat in agreement that it will not help the case?

 

[ToqueEh]

I think it's hard to say because of the new 'conditional' PR rules, there's not a lot of examples to compare to yet! Does your partner have an agreement from their employer to transfer to the Toronto Office?

 

[opmama]

Does anyone actually think my moving over to Shanghai to satisfy the cohabitation clause will help the situation? Or everyone is somewhat in agreement that it will not help the case?

It might work for cohabitation (not sure), but it might cause problems in other ways. I know that as a sponsor, I had to show intent to return to reside in Canada.

I'd still be thinking about exploring options on the work front, rather than exploring untested options on the immigration front (it's pretty clear in this thread that we're all just guessing). Less risky. Can your wife apply now for a job at the Toronto branch? Or apply for other jobs in Canada? She has almost a year to find one before her visa expires, and that way, you don't have to risk problems with her PR status.

 

[bchung]

Hi Opmama,

That is exactly what we decided on for now, however, it hasn't been easy because not all companies in Toronto are willing to do Video Conference interviews. I was just hoping there was a way to get through this in case she doesn't find a job.

 

[bchung]

I think it's hard to say because of the new 'conditional' PR rules, there's not a lot of examples to compare to yet! Does your partner have an agreement from their employer to transfer to the Toronto Office?

Not at the moment, but she has only been there for about 1 month, so we figured its not exactly a good sign to ask to be transferred to another office with less then 1 year of work experience in the company.

 

[Rob_TO]

Does anyone actually think my moving over to Shanghai to satisfy the cohabitation clause will help the situation? Or everyone is somewhat in agreement that it will not help the case?

Yes, this would absolutely guarantee that there would be no issues. As a Canadian citizen, you are allowed to live abroad with your PR spouse, and it will still count towards her PR residency requirements.

It might work for cohabitation (not sure), but it might cause problems in other ways. I know that as a sponsor, I had to show intent to return to reside in Canada.

They already have COPR, so that is no longer an issue.

 

[bchung]

Yes, this would absolutely guarantee that there would be no issues. As a Canadian citizen, you are allowed to live abroad with your PR spouse, and it will still count towards her PR residency requirements.

They already have COPR, so that is no longer an issue.

Hi Rob,

I'm just curious on how they would evaluate cohabitation when we are both overseas?

 

[scylla]

Hi Rob,

I'm just curious on how they would evaluate cohabitation when we are both overseas?

Proof that you live at the same address: joint lease, joint property ownership, joint utility bills, joint bank accounts showin the same address, proof through taxes filed that you both reported the same primary residence, etc.

 

[Rob_TO]

Proof that you live at the same address: joint lease, joint property ownership, joint utility bills, joint bank accounts showin the same address, proof through taxes filed that you both reported the same primary residence, etc.

Exactly. It's the same way people prove common-law status while living overseas. It's very common to do and happens all the time.

 

[opmama]

They already have COPR, so that is no longer an issue.

Cool, and thanks - lots to learn!

 

[bchung]

Exactly. It's the same way people prove common-law status while living overseas. It's very common to do and happens all the time.

Hi Rob,

Just to clarify. The earlier suggestion, was that its possible to just ignore the COPR, and have her finish her contract and come back in 2015, while keeping proof we have been communicating and visiting each other. Which i think would sound like a great backup solution.

However, this other solution to move to Shanghai, means I would have to have Chinese documents translated and and submitted to the CIC, which I guess they can still reject?

I like the first solution, but I'm not sure which one is less of a PR risk.

Also, as an FYI, I just got back a reply from a Lawyer in Toronto, and they have stated that they think the PR Condition of cohabitation applies to living in Canada, and not overseas. However, they are uncertain. And they sent a list of documents that I would need if I were overseas and needed to prove Cohabitation.