Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

[luvtrump]

Are you sure you know what Universal Basic Income is? It literally is money for doing nothing. Lol. Its not a topup to existing income.

I am all for UBI with no strings attached. It will make sure that people don't need to work to pay for basic necessities. This will also improve living conditions for all as bad employers wont be able to exploit workers anymore. The current situation is great for workers, employers are being forced to provide more pay and benefits to compete with CERB. I am all for it!

. As automation grows and need for human labor reduces, that becomes a necessity. We can tax the productivity that automation creates.

CERB should be permanent. Anytime someone loses a job, they should get 2000 per month. Thats a no brainer. If employers want to lure these workers back, they better pay up. They in turn can charge more to their customers. The effect across society will be higher wages for all, at the expense of operating margins of big business, which means lower stock values. A small price to pay in my opinion.

Which part of the world are you talking about? All immigrants I know have either 0 or 1 child. But I do know 2 Canadian born couples (white) with 3 kids each.

A top up UBI is better than No UBI at all. What you are talking about is not CERB but EI. If you lose one job you can always find another. CERB should only be reserved for emergency situations like a pandemic no permanent. Yes , all employers should pay better wages but then it's more trouble for restaurant business.

 

[fr72]

A top up UBI is better than No UBI at all. What you are talking about is not CERB but EI. If you lose one job you can always find another. CERB should only be reserved for emergency situations like a pandemic no permanent. Yes , all employers should pay better wages but then it's more trouble for restaurant business.

Ok, so are for full UBI?

You are for paying money to everyone forever with no conditions? If so, I agree with you.

CERB is just enhanced EI. You can call it enhanced EI if you dont like permanent CERB. Restaurants can always pass on costs to customers.

 

[fr72]

Having done this for a living for 20 years (investing in globally competitiveness businesses), in the 5 years since immigrating to Canada, I've gone from gung ho about the economy to rather concerned. Doesn't mean I'm right, but my interest is in understanding economic underpinnings, not in pushing political views. Frankly having looked at the policy positions of both liberals and conservatives, it's not clear either really understands or cares... Canadian politicians are as self-serving as politicians anywhere. Anyway this forum is not conducive to this kind of debate. Have nothing further to add, especially when you're so convinced that things will work out, and I hope your optimism proves justified.

But my first responsibility is to my family, so I'm hedging my bets... no savings in loonie denominated investments... zero. Since you appear to agree that inflation is the logical path for Canada to take, I hope you are doing the same with your investments. Also the fiction that the Canadian economy and currency can decouple from commodity prices is just that... fiction. https://economics.td.com/ca-loonie-rise

I have no idea where you stand. What does 'concerned' mean? If I say that you are predicting doom, you say Im putting words in your mouth.

What does concern mean? Give me a number. Will Canada economy go down 10%, 20%, 30% in per capita GDP? An estimate will do. If oil exports go to 0, will Canada become Bangladesh? I have given you an example of New Zealand which has no oil or major resources but has a per capita GDP of $42,000. That is my reasoning for saying that Canada can decouple from oil.

Now respond to me with 2 things. 1. To what extent will per capita GDP will fall when Canada moves away from oil 2. Why New Zealand can do without oil but Canada cannot.

Once upon a time, Canadian economy totally relied on the fur trade. Somehow, Canada did OK even after that ceased to be a major source of economic growth.

Yes, I am fully invested in US equities. It makes sense to be invested in the reserve currency. Equities are my inflation hedge. Also own property.

 

[prash42]

It's death by a thousand cuts / frog in slow boiling water / your preferred analogy that conveys the same idea. Canada is not going to suffer any catastrophic collapse, but there is a steady decline in standard of living. It's the silent tragedy of small differences compounding over time, so it doesn't animate public discourse, and makes it darn easy for both Trudeau and O' Toole to ignore it.

30 years back, the average American made 14% more than the average Canadian, today that delta is 27-28%. And this is pre-tax income, we all know who pays more taxes. What's worse, the gap has started to widen at a faster pace over the past 10 years. Do you want to know why we, as Canadians, don't feel it? Because Canadian household debt-to-GDP has RISEN FAST over the past decade hitting 110%, while it has DROPPED fast in the US over the past decade to under 80%. Couldn't find the latest data, but look at the 3rd chart here for data as of 2019 comparing Canada to the US. We are poorer, but living off our future earnings, and think we're doing alright. The State of the Canadian Debt Slaves, How They Compare to American Debt Slaves, and the Bank of Canada’s Response | Wolf Street

Project the GDP per capita trends out another 30 years, and decide for yourself where your kids will be better off. You could argue that Canadians don't pay for healthcare, and you would be right. But public support in the US for universal health care is broadening, and there is a very good chance they will get some form of government coverage before the decade turns.

The arc of nations is slow but sure, unless there is fundamental change to alter course.

I have no idea where you stand. What does 'concerned' mean? If I say that you are predicting doom, you say Im putting words in your mouth.

What does concern mean? Give me a number. Will Canada economy go down 10%, 20%, 30% in per capita GDP? An estimate will do. If oil exports go to 0, will Canada become Bangladesh? I have given you an example of New Zealand which has no oil or major resources but has a per capita GDP of $42,000. That is my reasoning for saying that Canada can decouple from oil.

Now respond to me with 2 things. 1. To what extent will per capita GDP will fall when Canada moves away from oil 2. Why New Zealand can do without oil but Canada cannot.

Once upon a time, Canadian economy totally relied on the fur trade. Somehow, Canada did OK even after that ceased to be a major source of economic growth.

Yes, I am fully invested in US equities. It makes sense to be invested in the reserve currency. Equities are my inflation hedge. Also own property.

 

[anton1990]

Yeah.... former soviet bloc countries and conservative parties prefer a certain kind of immigrant for sure.

YOU COMMENT IS STUPID!!!!
What does nationality have to do with political views?

Educate yourself

 

[fr72]

It's death by a thousand cuts / frog in slow boiling water / your preferred analogy that conveys the same idea. Canada is not going to suffer any catastrophic collapse, but there is a steady decline in standard of living. It's the silent tragedy of small differences compounding over time, so it doesn't animate public discourse, and makes it darn easy for both Trudeau and O' Toole to ignore it.

30 years back, the average American made 14% more than the average Canadian, today that delta is 27-28%. And this is pre-tax income, we all know who pays more taxes. What's worse, the gap has started to widen at a faster pace over the past 10 years. Do you want to know why we, as Canadians, don't feel it? Because Canadian household debt-to-GDP has RISEN FAST over the past decade hitting 110%, while it has DROPPED fast in the US over the past decade to under 80%. Couldn't find the latest data, but look at the 3rd chart here for data as of 2019 comparing Canada to the US. We are poorer, but living off our future earnings, and think we're doing alright. The State of the Canadian Debt Slaves, How They Compare to American Debt Slaves, and the Bank of Canada’s Response | Wolf Street

Project the GDP per capita trends out another 30 years, and decide for yourself where your kids will be better off. You could argue that Canadians don't pay for healthcare, and you would be right. But public support in the US for universal health care is broadening, and there is a very good chance they will get some form of government coverage before the decade turns.

The arc of nations is slow but sure, unless there is fundamental change to alter course.

And you think that the US will get this universal healthcare for free? No tax increases, no printing, no govt debt?

Oh and despite all this doom and gloom, the median wealth per capita in Canada is actually higher than US. And its not even close, Canada is 40% higher. So, even with this lower 'average' earning (average is a really bad measure due to skew by a few billionaires and corporate HQs...Ireland is a classic example), Canadians are doing all right.

The debt will be wiped away with inflation. Thats why inflation is both required, and is good.

And why only compare with US? Is it either US or poverty? Are those the 2 options? Why the obsession with US? Is it Canada's stated goal to be a superpower?

If you stopped history in 2008-11, you would have seen the US housing market collapsing, the loonie shooting to parity and would have predicted doom for US (through a thousand cuts of course). These linear extrapolations are often meaningless.

Japan has been similarly uncompetitive since 1990, yet the standard of living in Japan is quite high. It doesn't matter one bit to the average Japanese that US has gone much farther ahead for the last 30 years. Similarly, it wont matter one bit to Canadians how much the US gap increases.

Ditto for a lot of European countries, lot of whom have been uncompetitive for a lot longer than 30 years, but they are still developed.

 

[fr72]

YOU COMMENT IS STUPID!!!!
What does nationality have to do with political views?

Educate yourself

Well, you are the one who started with 'I am from USSR' to back your political beliefs. And then said that I must be from the 'East' because of my beliefs.

I am giving you my experience. I have seen surveys where East Europeans are shown to have very anti immigrant views (and lets face it, we know what kind of immigrants they think of - you yourself had something to say about refugees).

One Harvard study: https://www.rferl.org/a/racism-europe/28497700.html

 

[anton1990]

Well, you are the one who started with 'I am from USSR' to back your political beliefs. And then said that I must be from the 'East' because of my beliefs.

I am giving you my experience. I have seen surveys where East Europeans are shown to have very anti immigrant views (and lets face it, we know what kind of immigrants they think of - you yourself had something to say about refugees).

One Harvard study: https://www.rferl.org/a/racism-europe/28497700.html

You need to read posts again. It all started mr @fr72 Started talking about socialism. Take your eastern european survey to the washroom and leave ot there. Stop attaching stereotypes. Oh ok, now u use the word refugees. Ok. Should we stick to socialism, cerb, politics or refugees? U are jumping all over the place.

My political views have nothing to do with me being Ukraine.

I support working class Canadians

 

[fr72]

Again i am not trying to make people mad. Majority

I think you are from east. Most of Alberta and Saskatchewan would understand what i qm talking about

Assigning my views based on my region.

Educate yourself https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

I know what is socialism, I was born in one called USSR. And any socialism is corruption

Claiming your beliefs are rooted in your origin.

NDP only talks about refugees and parents/grandparents. Is this improving immigration system?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cicnews.com/2021/08/election-2021-what-canadas-parties-say-about-immigration-0818986.html/amp

Dismissing refugees here.

You have been jumping all over the place for a while.

 

[anton1990]

Assigning my views based on my region.




Claiming your beliefs are rooted in your origin.




Dismissing refugees here.

You have been jumping all over the place for a while.

Haha

Beliefs???? U said u believe in socialism. If i was born in socialist country, this does not make me believe it is good

If you were to read full sentences it says - NDP only talks about refugees and parents/grandparents. Good for you that you know how to highlight refugees.

Why did not you read link before highlighting? My pount was that immigration it is all programs.

Read better man

 

[fr72]

Haha

Beliefs???? U said u believe in socialism. If i was born in socialist country, this does not make me believe it is good

If you were to read full sentences it says - NDP only talks about refugees and parents/grandparents. Good for you that you know how to highlight refugees.

Why did not you read link before highlighting? My pount was that immigration it is all programs.

Read better man

How did you clear IELTS? I never said you believe that socialism is good. You believe that socialism is bad and the reason you give is your place of birth. So it's clear that you think that place of origin is important for political beliefs.

You said refugee policy is not an improvement on immigration programs. Clearly you dont think that refugees are an improvement. I think they are. Having a good refugee policy is an improvement. We should be taking in more refugees.

 

[prash42]

Canadian median wealth per capita you quote is news to me, but wikipedia agrees with you, so bravo on the find. I'm an investor, I go where the data leads me, and have no problem adjusting my views, but I will say the findings are at odds with personal experience. Compensation is night and day Canada vs the US in my line of work (I worked 5 years in NYC in a prior life) and the job market is shallow to the point of feeling provincial. I have similar feedback on compensation from friends in other professional fields... doctors, and techies. Ultimately, everybody's decision is based on what works individually for them, not country medians and averages. Before you ask why I'm even in Canada, there were a unique set of personal circumstances

Regarding the US, "obsession" is a strong word, but I do like the country having gone to grad school, worked a few years, and met my wife there, lol. I would urge you not to see an entire nation through the lens of Trump's most hard-right followers. America is a great country, with heaps of generous people, and incredible diversity. As is Canada, I hasten to add, before you threaten to deport me south, haha.

Ultimately, I see myself as a global citizen of Indian origin, and we raise our kids to think that way too. We have close friends in over a dozen countries, and many of those would make wonderful places to live, work and raise a family. Canada happens to be one of them. We will go where life and opportunities take us, and try to be productive members of any society while we live there. This fixation on nationality is a bit jarring and tribal. The "nation state" is a pretty recent idea within human history, the only reason it matters is because policies and governance reside within national boundaries. The EU is already showing that need not always be the case, and there is a more inclusive way forward.

I would love for Canada to be successful, and mine are professional observations. For example, *I think* Canada will have a far harder time printing money indefinitely compared to the US. I could be right on this, or I could be wrong. But every investor also needs to be a risk manager, and the risk manager in me suggests I should steer clear of the loonie. The last time the loonie was at parity, check what energy prices were on the chart from TD I linked above. Any bet the loonie could get there again, is a bet that oil goes above $100. I'm not a speculator, so that's not a call I can make.

Btw, I'm in agreement with your observation on Japan. If you look at the last 40 years per capita, Japan has performed only slightly worse than the US, including its 80s boom and 90s bust. It actually did better than Canada (and your favorite country NZ) during that period. But guess who did better than the US... Germany... so the problem is not with "socialism" (whatever that means) but what flavor you adopt. We have close friends in Munich, and have seen first hand how strong Germany's school system is. In comparison, Canada is dumbing things down for our kids at school, it's the saddest thing about the country. When we first came, we were really keen on public schools, and sent our eldest to one of TDSB's top-rated schools per EQAO and Fraser. The expectations from students and quality of instruction were so dismayingly low, that we felt compelled to move to a private school. Now the public schools in the US aren't great overall, but we have friends in NJ, TX, CA, MI who send their kids to good school districts, and each of them is happy. What on earth are we paying taxes for when a Toronto public school rated 8.5 by Fraser is so appallingly bad?!

I fear this is turning into a pointless conversation, so I'm going to post no further. Fully prepared for an onslaught that I'm an opportunist and not deserving of Canada's acceptance, lol. The one country for which I have tenderness in my heart is India, but sadly our kids may not feel that way. Such is life. Peace.

And you think that the US will get this universal healthcare for free? No tax increases, no printing, no govt debt?

Oh and despite all this doom and gloom, the median wealth per capita in Canada is actually higher than US. And its not even close, Canada is 40% higher. So, even with this lower 'average' earning (average is a really bad measure due to skew by a few billionaires and corporate HQs...Ireland is a classic example), Canadians are doing all right.

The debt will be wiped away with inflation. Thats why inflation is both required, and is good.

And why only compare with US? Is it either US or poverty? Are those the 2 options? Why the obsession with US? Is it Canada's stated goal to be a superpower?

If you stopped history in 2008-11, you would have seen the US housing market collapsing, the loonie shooting to parity and would have predicted doom for US (through a thousand cuts of course). These linear extrapolations are often meaningless.

Japan has been similarly uncompetitive since 1990, yet the standard of living in Japan is quite high. It doesn't matter one bit to the average Japanese that US has gone much farther ahead for the last 30 years. Similarly, it wont matter one bit to Canadians how much the US gap increases.

Ditto for a lot of European countries, lot of whom have been uncompetitive for a lot longer than 30 years, but they are still developed.

 

[fr72]

Canadian median wealth per capita you quote is news to me, but wikipedia agrees with you, so bravo on the find. I'm an investor, I go where the data leads me, and have no problem adjusting my views, but I will say the findings are at odds with personal experience. Compensation is night and day Canada vs the US in my line of work (I worked 5 years in NYC in a prior life) and the job market is shallow to the point of feeling provincial. I have similar feedback on compensation from friends in other professional fields... doctors, and techies. Ultimately, everybody's decision is based on what works individually for them, not country medians and averages. Before you ask why I'm even in Canada, there were a unique set of personal circumstances

So, now we have gone from talking about the future of Canada and to the very narrow experience of recent immigrants of Canada
Canada works very well for the average Canadian. You started this whole thing off by predicting death by a thousand cuts for Canada. Not recent immigrants to Canada, the entire nation. Now that you have numbers that show that you are off about Canada, you brought it back to recent Canadian immigrants and people who work in certain fields.

Btw, I'm in agreement with your observation on Japan. If you look at the last 40 years per capita, Japan has performed only slightly worse than the US, including its 80s boom and 90s bust. It actually did better than Canada (and your favorite country NZ) during that period. But guess who did better than the US... Germany... so the problem is not with "socialism" (whatever that means) but what flavor you adopt. We have close friends in Munich, and have seen first hand how strong Germany's school system is. In comparison, Canada is dumbing things down for our kids at school, it's the saddest thing about the country. When we first came, we were really keen on public schools, and sent our eldest to one of TDSB's top-rated schools per EQAO and Fraser. The expectations from students and quality of instruction were so dismayingly low, that we felt compelled to move to a private school. Now the public schools in the US aren't great overall, but we have friends in NJ, TX, CA, MI who send their kids to good school districts, and each of them is happy. What on earth are we paying taxes for when a Toronto school rated 8.5 by Fraser is so appalling?!

I fear this is turning into a pointless conversation, so I'm going to post no further. Fully prepared for an onslaught that I'm an opportunist and not deserving of Canada's acceptance, lol. The one country for which I have tenderness in my heart is India, but sadly our kids may not feel that way. Such is life. Peace.

Japan went from being 30% higher than US in per capita GDP to 30% lower than US from 1995 onwards. Canada has always been below US all these years. Despite this epic crash, I would say that Japanese people are doing okay.

Your next part is entirely anecdotal and again applies to your special circumstance. You do realize that STEM immigrants to US (and sometimes to Canada) are the creme de la creme? Your problems with schools are the problems of the 1%. No doubt, you expect your kids to be Ivy leaguers like most desi immigrant parents. That is again not the experience of an average Canadian.

People like you who are type A personalities will always be frustrated in Canada, which is an unambitious country. But just because it doesnt live up to your lofty expectations, doesnt mean its a (slowly) doomed country.

In countries like India, only the class toppers and top engineering/MBA grads get to emigrate or be middle class. The rest spend their lives in poverty (globally speaking). That is not the case in developed countries. Barring US and maybe Germany, most 1st world people (and countries) are perfectly fine being mediocre, because they will have a good life regardless.

I would say you are projecting your life experience and bias on to a place you arent that familiar with.

 

[prash42]

Agreed on both counts. Wish we had a better understanding of this a few years back, we certainly share our views with friends considering immigrating. Judging by my kids personalities, completely aside from work ethic and smarts, the elder (kinder, unambitious) is a better fit for Canada than the younger (sassy, extremely ambitious).

People like you who are type A personalities will always be frustrated in Canada, which is an unambitious country. But just because it doesnt live up to your lofty expectations, doesnt mean its a (slowly) doomed country.

 

[Omegabyte]

Deficits were also high just after WW2 and so was inflation. Yet, everyone agrees that 50s was one of the most prosperous decades in North American history.

CERB was excellent and much needed. We should make it permanent. I am sure conservatives had similar objections when medicare was first introduced. US right wingers still object to universal healthcare. Its the conservative nature to resist improvements to life.

We should go one step ahead and introduce UBI. Workers having more bargaining power is always good.

Who's going to pay for your CERB/UBI? HMMMMM??? Oh that's right, taxpayers.

NOTHING in this world comes for free.