citizenship by convenience

[Lux et Veritas]

Yes, I'm looking at the worst case scenario because this entire thread is about citizens of convenience (i.e., those people who exemplify the worst case scenario). No, not everyone will come back to leech off the country, but as I've said before, it is still a problem that needs to be addressed.

As for your claim of healthcare being a non-issue, yes you are supposed to turn in your OHIP card if you leave. But is this enforced? Absolutely not. Go onto the Health section of this forum and you will see scores of PR's who live abroad and show up in Canada for the delivery of their child or for medical treatment. So, is most certainly is an issue.

As for universities, yes there are plenty of quality schools globally. But how many are available for the same tuition fees as Canadians pay in Canada? Why do you think the fees are so low? They are heavily subsidized by the government for its citizens, and that's why there is such a significant distinction between fees for Canadians/PR's and those for international students.

And finally, as for your comment about people returning to Canada bearing expenses through elevated rent payments, how does this help the taxpayers or the government in any way? You imply that the payment of high rents entitles people to things when it definitely does not. Rents go to private individuals or companies, and there is no GST/HST on residential rent, so the government only receives a small portion through income taxes (after deducting all expenses). This is hardly enough to justify being eligible for all of the other benefits and services Canadians receive.

Healthcare fraud: this is an enforcement problem not a "system" problem. Your issue is with CBSA not immigration law then. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Universities: in the UK tuition fees used to be cheaper and for some courses they still are even at Oxford and Cambridge. It's up to the provincial authorities to raise fees not banning citizens from leaving Canada altogether!

Rent payments etc: Well we still pay property taxes to the municipalities how is this not benefitting local areas and community services?? Also I meant to say just by living here they need to eat, drink, etc...they will be spending money in Canada how is this not benefitting the rest of society?

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I'm delusional? No, you are clueless. Here's a ranking of tax rates in the developed world: http://www.immigroup.com/news/how-does-canada-compare-taxes-rest-west If you bothered to educate yourself before posting, you would see that Canada is far from the top and is actually bunched in with all the other countries (barring outliers). Instead, you seem to pride yourself in coming across as an ill-informed and ignorant clown.

Despite claiming to be an economist, your grasp on things financial seems to be quite weak. I'm not even sure where to start on your argument that taxpayers would have to fund universities whether CoC's attended them or not. Are you being serious? Do you really think the cost remains the same whether new CoC students are added to the student body or not? You don't seem to realize that new students = new classrooms + new teachers + new dormitories + new infrastructure and the list goes on. Further, what about if one of those CoC students is taking the place of an international student who would otherwise pay higher fees...would the cost to the taxpayers still be the same?

I'm far from a racist and you know absolutely nothing about me. Your arguments are baseless and flawed, and as a result, you have to resort to immature name calling. As for being a hypocrite, you have yet to reply to my last message where I exposed you as the biggest hypocrite ever. You think that I'm a hypocrite because I'm an immigrant and I don't agree with the Liberals. However, you were given your PR by the Cons and you don't agree with them, and that doesn't make you a hypocrite? Your double standards are shocking.

Uh not sure where to begin.
1. Try looking up different types of taxes not just PIT and CIT for heaven's sakes. Also, immigroup like wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable economics source. I have personal experience of paying taxes in different countries and I'm definitely paying CRA much more than others and can claim less deductables.
2. I never said the costs stay the same: population growth is inevitable with or without immigration, but just as costs grow so do revenues. The problem in this country is corruption, which is endemic in federal and provincial governments. People are so self-centred it's unbelievable nothing ever got done. Canada's economic growth (had the people been given a better choice than Harper or Justin) would've been high enough to more than compensate for the expenses and costs. As for infrastructure, it's always been awful. That being said, Canada is a relatively "new" country: you cannot expect Toronto to have the same infrastructure as London, UK for example. Again don't bring universities into this: the unis can revise their fees and whilst I wouldn't agree with it if the difference between Canadian and Int'l is soo big and that were really an issue they would've raised their fees they couldn't care less about the people.
3. I'm not saying you're racist because you support the conservatives. You're racist because you don't want for other people what you have benefitted from yourself because they weren't born in Canada when in fact you told us you are an immigrant yourself. There are much bigger problems than this issue, which is not even a problem if we had competent authorities. Even if this were a massive issue, banning citizens from travelling is Nazi-esque- even the Soviet Union didn't do that on a wide scale lolol. There are other ways to address this without banning Canadians from leaving or dual citizenship just look at other countries and you'll realise how silly this whole debate here in Canada is.

 

[torontosm]

Healthcare fraud: this is an enforcement problem not a "system" problem. Your issue is with CBSA not immigration law then. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Fair enough. However, if "returning residents" weren't immediately eligible for healthcare, this problem would be immediately eliminated.

Universities: in the UK tuition fees used to be cheaper and for some courses they still are even at Oxford and Cambridge. It's up to the provincial authorities to raise fees not banning citizens from leaving Canada altogether!

Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say that citizens should be banned from leaving Canada? I just said that they shouldn't be allowed to leave and expect their kids to get treated the same as any other taxpayer's child. And, why should I have to pay taxes and pay higher fees (as you suggest) so that some freeloader's kid can enjoy the same benefits? Seems awfully unfair.

Rent payments etc: Well we still pay property taxes to the municipalities how is this not benefitting local areas and community services?? Also I meant to say just by living here they need to eat, drink, etc...they will be spending money in Canada how is this not benefitting the rest of society?

You don't pay property taxes when renting a house. And, the property taxes would be paid by the landlord regardless of whether the house was occupied by a returning resident or not. So now, tell me again how someone paying rent helps the tax base?

 

[surgi]

They don't "pay" a lot of money. Yes, they bring $26,000 but how much money is that really? According to the only study I've seen (http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report), immigrants actually cost the country $23 billion per year. So, they are obviously not supporting their own expenses, let along contributing to the country.

If you can show me ONE piece of written evidence where ANYONE from the Canadian government has promised ANY immigrant a job on arrival EVER, I will never speak on this topic again. However, I can safely say that this doesn't exist because the government doesn't control jobs in Canada.

written evidence??!! watch this it was in the court!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5GuFcP010w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75TJhchn4OE
I hope you will retain your promise ;D

 

[torontosm]

Uh not sure where to begin.
1. Try looking up different types of taxes not just PIT and CIT for heaven's sakes. Also, immigroup like wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable economics source. I have personal experience of paying taxes in different countries and I'm definitely paying CRA much more than others and can claim less deductables.

What taxes are you talking about then? And if you don't trust the source I posted, how about the Globe? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/canadas-corporate-tax-lowest-among-developed-countries/article4566438/ The headline says it all.

As for what you said regarding universities, you specifically said "The taxpayer will fund these universities irrespective of the number of Canadians there are..." That really does sound like you are saying the costs remain the same.

Finally, wanting to help Canada doesn't make me a racist. You really do need to look up the word before hurling accusations, as I am not distinguishing based on race or ethnicity. And, while you are at it, you should actually read the "intent to reside" clause, as it may change your opinion. If you bothered to read it carefully, you would clearly see that it doesn't either: (i) ban any citizen from traveling; or (ii) ban dual citizenship. but then, don't let the truth get in the way of your sensationalism.

Ill-informed fear mongers like you are dangerous in public forums.

 

[surgi]

As for the health care aspect of it, it's based on residency and if you don't live in that province at least 5-6 months a year, you lose your eligibility. A person who lives outside Canada on a permanent basis and still keeps a health card to use for when they visit is committing health care fraud. However, plenty of people do not seem to realize it is fraud, not even Canadians who live abroad in some cases. Provincial health care needs to do a lot more of explaining to new PR's who are applying for health care that getting health care when they don't plan to stick around is fraud and that fraud is a crime and if they did, I am sure a lot fewer people would do this.

Immigration could also make it easier for PR parents to sponsor their kids who are born abroad. Currently, there is no guarantee for a PR parent to be granted a TRV for their child and this can mean that families are split up, one parent has to go to Canada and sponsor and the other stays with the child abroad and this is exactly why many PR's who live abroad choose to give birth in Canada to avoid that hassle.

Chapeau ! good point to clear up some hallucinations and delusions of some politicians and their fans!!

 

[torontosm]

written evidence??!! watch this it was in the court!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5GuFcP010w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75TJhchn4OE
I hope you will retain your promise ;D

I wasted 13 minutes watching your first clip which was from 2005 and did not include a single government official promising jobs to anyone (immigrant or otherwise). I'm not going to bother with the second link

 

[Politren]

All of you are aware the healthcare here is not healthcare in an instant right?

If you have a cancer today, your chance of seeing a specialist are in 10 months. Depending on wait list right.

Its really absurd to tell coc they'll come back if they need healthcare. Of course they'll be waiting first. Lucky if they'd still be alive when they're cue is in.

It is not a very solid argument.

Very good point.
I also don't understand what is the fuzz about the CoC and the health care when everyone has to wait a long time to be properly treated.

 

[Politren]

I wasted 13 minutes watching your first clip which was from 2005 and did not include a single government official promising jobs to anyone (immigrant or otherwise). I'm not going to bother with the second link

Of course that you don't mind to pay for all those people but only if they stay in Canada . I also benefit from people like you.
Many people by the way would love to stay here when someone else (people like you) pays their bills.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say that citizens should be banned from leaving Canada? I just said that they shouldn't be allowed to leave and expect their kids to get treated the same as any other taxpayer's child. And, why should I have to pay taxes and pay higher fees (as you suggest) so that some freeloader's kid can enjoy the same benefits? Seems awfully unfair.

You don't pay property taxes when renting a house. And, the property taxes would be paid by the landlord regardless of whether the house was occupied by a returning resident or not. So now, tell me again how someone paying rent helps the tax base?

1. By wanting to ban CoC's and knowing full well that you can't prove or disprove intent you are effectively trying to ban people from travelling/leaving. However let's say that your only concern is their kids and the future: These kids will still need to finance themselves it's not like they can just come to Canada and get healthcare immediately, get cheap education etc. Tuition is over years and the costs of education are so high that many students pile on debt. That includes your much maligned CoCs by the way
2. True you don't pay property taxes when renting but you do if you buy. Those who rent still need to pay for utilities (which are also costly here), and this revenue does benefit the rest of the city. Now if that's not happening, then you should direct your anger at the fools running Toronto Hydro, OPG and these organisations rather than the immigrants CoC or otherwise.
3. On taxes: you are right that some OECD countries levy greater taxes (I mentioned France but there are others too). But compared to other anglophone countries (US, UK, Australia) Canadian taxes are higher. Either way, there are two ways to address this (simplistically): increase taxes, or increase the economically-active population to widen the tax base. The CoC kids you're mad about can in fact help fulfill the later objective.
4. My whole ire is directed at the "intent to reside" and CoC debate by right-wing conservatives like yourself. Legally I know you guys have sour grapes and just have to live with it as there isn't much that can be done about this. However, people like Harper have succeeded in diverting your attention away from much more serious issues and focus on kids of Canadian citizens living abroad. By the way, I don't know if you know this but in 2009 they introduced a 1-generation limit, meaning that citizenship is only passed to 1 generation. Before it was multiple generations. The world is evolving, globalisation is a fact and there will be people who will move in pursuit of happiness and opportunity where ver that arises. You have to accept that.

 

[torontosm]

1. By wanting to ban CoC's and knowing full well that you can't prove or disprove intent you are effectively trying to ban people from travelling/leaving. However let's say that your only concern is their kids and the future: These kids will still need to finance themselves it's not like they can just come to Canada and get healthcare immediately, get cheap education etc. Tuition is over years and the costs of education are so high that many students pile on debt. That includes your much maligned CoCs by the way

Why does everything have to be in extremes? No one is banned from leaving. But, if overseas citizens don't have immediate access to the same facilities and benefits as resident Canadians, then this would make it fair. What if we went with a system like the US where to qualify for "in-country" tuition rates, you had to live in Canada for 2 years first? Wouldn't this be a step in the right direction? So this way, people could leave, but then their kids would pay international student rates for 2 years when they came back.

2. True you don't pay property taxes when renting but you do if you buy. Those who rent still need to pay for utilities (which are also costly here), and this revenue does benefit the rest of the city. Now if that's not happening, then you should direct your anger at the fools running Toronto Hydro, OPG and these organisations rather than the immigrants CoC or otherwise.

So now you've gone from returning residents paying from themselves through taxes to paying for themselves through utility bills? I won't even bother responding.

3. On taxes: you are right that some OECD countries levy greater taxes (I mentioned France but there are others too).

Thank you.

4. My whole ire is directed at the "intent to reside" and CoC debate by right-wing conservatives like yourself. Legally I know you guys have sour grapes and just have to live with it as there isn't much that can be done about this. However, people like Harper have succeeded in diverting your attention away from much more serious issues and focus on kids of Canadian citizens living abroad. By the way, I don't know if you know this but in 2009 they introduced a 1-generation limit, meaning that citizenship is only passed to 1 generation. Before it was multiple generations. The world is evolving, globalisation is a fact and there will be people who will move in pursuit of happiness and opportunity where ver that arises. You have to accept that.

you see, I refuse to accept that "there isn't much that can be done about this" I think we all have a voice and can effect change. and I will continue to try and do so.

I'm aware of the 1 generation change and if things continue on this path, I'm sure there will be more changes (including universal taxation) required down the line, because the current system is just not sustainable. I would prefer to see some rules tightened up now to avoid such drastic measures in the future, but that's just me. Obviously you don't agree.

 

[Politren]

Lux et Veritas

If a kid of CoC is born in Canada is impossible to be labeled CoC, but if his brother or sister were born abroad they are the real CoC.


I just love the whole absurd issue of CoC, measuring intends which are changing on a constant basis. Typical Harper style Bull$its.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Lux et Veritas

If a kid of CoC is born in Canada is impossible to be labeled CoC, but if his brother or sister were born abroad they are the real CoC.


I just love the whole absurd issue of CoC, measuring intends which are changing on a constant basis. Typical Harper style Bull$its.

lol I know so absurd, when someone born in Canada could be as much a liability (if not more) than someone born outside Canada.

 

[Politren]

lol I know so absurd, when someone born in Canada could be as much a liability (if not more) than someone born outside Canada.

I was quite frank by the way a little while ago that for example I am a long term burden for the Canadian economy by working at the low end and using meanwhile all the benefits here as PR. All the people working at the low end are in the very same burden causing situation for Canada.

Trust me if I was working something good I would be mad to support all that huge problematic mass of limited financially people with my taxes.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

What if we went with a system like the US where to qualify for "in-country" tuition rates, you had to live in Canada for 2 years first? Wouldn't this be a step in the right direction? So this way, people could leave, but then their kids would pay international student rates for 2 years when they came back.

So now you've gone from returning residents paying from themselves through taxes to paying for themselves through utility bills? I won't even bother responding.

Thank you.

you see, I refuse to accept that "there isn't much that can be done about this" I think we all have a voice and can effect change. and I will continue to try and do so.

I'm aware of the 1 generation change and if things continue on this path, I'm sure there will be more changes (including universal taxation) required down the line, because the current system is just not sustainable. I would prefer to see some rules tightened up now to avoid such drastic measures in the future, but that's just me. Obviously you don't agree.

A better (and fairer) solution would be for international students to pay more, to rid corruption in the university system, to boost R&D investment as a % of GDP, and to ensure that Canada's universities can actually compete with the Harvards, Oxfords, and Stanfords in the world (which at the moment they simply don't) by attracting only the brightest students and producing graduates that are ready to enter and compete in Canada's arcane labour market. See how looking at the bigger picture helps put the mess we are in in a much wider perspective? I'm sure if universities are feeling the burden from CoC's they would've raised their fees on everyone. Instead some academics are earning way more than they should be (see Sunshine List) and they're handing out many scholarships (which I would argue is a good thing as long as they are meritocratically awarded).

What I meant re rent/utilities etc...is this: when CoC's come back to Canada they will spend money in Canada, which benefits our economy. It's really simple- they need to eat, buy clothes, put money in a bank etc... this all benefits the economy. It may not benefit Torontosm directly at this very minute but it will benefit our society as a whole.

You can keep "effecting change" but you should be barking up another tree. You've let the Tories brainwash you completely. If the "financial burden" is your issue then maybe you should protest our increased military spending under Harper over the past 10 years, our stupid policies of antagonizing countries like Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, and now even Europe when we could've had better political and economic relations with these countries, hence benefitting over the medium term.

The rules that should be tightened up should target revoking citizenship from convicted terrorists, requiring income tax filing (which's already there), maybe making PR requirements tougher if that appeases you, but venturing down the "intent to reside" path is too draconian. Not even the Soviets thought of that one.