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citizenship by convenience

Politren

Hero Member
Jan 16, 2015
470
149
torontosm

What benefit is for Canada when a person stays here and work something on the low end and take all his taxes back because he/she is poor.
I for example feel quite frankly that despite working here at the low end I use much more benefits which I don't pay for, because I get my taxes back. I am a burden for the economy like everyone working at the low end position and most probably I harm much more Canada if I stay limited here.
 

surgi

Star Member
Feb 20, 2014
140
14
Politren said:
torontosm

What benefit is for Canada when a person stays here and work something on the low end and take all his taxes back because he/she is poor.
I for example feel quite frankly that despite working here at the low end I use much more benefits which I don't pay for, because I get my taxes back. I am a burden for the economy like everyone working at the low end position and most probably I harm much more Canada if I stay limited here.
Chapeau :)
 

pie_vancouver

Hero Member
Jun 12, 2014
963
86
Vancouver
Category........
Visa Office......
Manila
NOC Code......
1111
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
2008
VISA ISSUED...
2009
LANDED..........
2010
People will go to whenever they want to go, you can't force them to stay in any place if they don't want to stay.
As long as people met the requirements give them the citizenship, creating 2 classes of citizens is bs.

+1 Lux et Veritas
 

surgi

Star Member
Feb 20, 2014
140
14
torontosm said:
So let me sum up your position. You are saying that doctors and skilled immigrants voluntarily move themselves and their families to Canada. No one has promised them a job, and with the smallest bit of effort, they could learn that there are not a lot of jobs available in Canada and that their qualifications are not transferable,

During the next 4 years, they (as expected) struggle to find jobs and perhaps avail social benefits like welfare. During this time, the kids go to school for free, families get free healthcare, they drive on roads, are protected by police and fire personnel, all without paying a dime. Then, once the passports are obtained, these individuals leave CAnada immediately and never pay any taxes again. However, when they want surgery or medical treatment, or when the kids want to avail subsidized university, they return to Canada.

Don't you see how flawed this entire picture is? Canada is a country, not a charity. At the end of the day, someone has to bear the cost for all of this. I'm tired of being one of the people left holding the bill for this nonsense.

If you want to leave Canada, fine. But don't expect Canada to open up its already overburdened healthcare, international resources and universities to you whenever you want. You have to return here, live here and earn the right to use these facilities again.
They pay a lot of money . each family of 4 persons come to Canada at least with 26000 dollars. A doctor to pass the needed exams to be licensed at least pay 15000 dollars ,usually more because they do not pass from the first time. To apply for residency they pay thousands of dollars twice a years. When they buy anything they pay TVA which is a tax. Most of them work low paid jobs and according to law if they are exempted from taxes that is not a privilege for them but for all Canadians. This image that those people come for free school ,health services and use of roads is totally imaginary and fake and used to give reasons for discriminatory laws and bills. Many of them lose hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to integrate in the Canadian society but if the Canadians people are welcoming and kind, the Canadian job market is very tough and suspicious. In fact they come with promises to find not only a job but also the paradise. hen you go to the websites which hire doctors you will see how they promise who chose immigration to Canada will find it easy. I myself talked to the consulate of Canada before issuing the visa and she was french speaking from Quebec,she told me she can not imagine difficulties for me to find a job in Canada as I was graduated from french universities. All what you write here is not true,I am sorry.
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
Politren said:
torontosm

What benefit is for Canada when a person stays here and work something on the low end and take all his taxes back because he/she is poor.
I for example feel quite frankly that despite working here at the low end I use much more benefits which I don't pay for, because I get my taxes back. I am a burden for the economy like everyone working at the low end position and most probably I harm much more Canada if I stay limited here.
Let me turn the question around...what benefit is there for the person to stay in Canada for 4 years when he is working on the low end? Obviously he's here because he wants the citizenship. Now why would he want that? So that his kids can go to school for free, and university for cheap? so that he and his family can have access to free healthcare at will?

You are saying that Canada should hand everyone passports and push them out of the country. I'm saying that if that happened, those people shouldn't have access to the same benefits and facilities as Canadians who live in Canada and pay taxes in Canada.
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
surgi said:
They pay a lot of money . each family of 4 persons come to Canada at least with 26000 dollars. A doctor to pass the needed exams to be licensed at least pay 15000 dollars ,usually more because they do not pass from the first time. To apply for residency they pay thousands of dollars twice a years. When they buy anything they pay TVA which is a tax. Most of them work low paid jobs and according to law if they are exempted from taxes that is not a privilege for them but for all Canadians. This image that those people come for free school ,health services and use of roads is totally imaginary and fake and used to give reasons for discriminatory laws and bills. Many of them lose hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to integrate in the Canadian society but if the Canadians people are welcoming and kind, the Canadian job market is very tough and suspicious. In fact they come with promises to find not only a job but also the paradise. hen you go to the websites which hire doctors you will see how they promise who chose immigration to Canada will find it easy. I myself talked to the consulate of Canada before issuing the visa and she was french speaking from Quebec,she told me she can not imagine difficulties for me to find a job in Canada as I was graduated from french universities. All what you write here is not true,I am sorry.
They don't "pay" a lot of money. Yes, they bring $26,000 but how much money is that really? According to the only study I've seen (http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report), immigrants actually cost the country $23 billion per year. So, they are obviously not supporting their own expenses, let along contributing to the country.

If you can show me ONE piece of written evidence where ANYONE from the Canadian government has promised ANY immigrant a job on arrival EVER, I will never speak on this topic again. However, I can safely say that this doesn't exist because the government doesn't control jobs in Canada.
 

Politren

Hero Member
Jan 16, 2015
470
149
torontosm said:
Let me turn the question around...what benefit is there for the person to stay in Canada for 4 years when he is working on the low end? Obviously he's here because he wants the citizenship. Now why would he want that? So that his kids can go to school for free, and university for cheap? so that he and his family can have access to free healthcare at will?

You are saying that Canada should hand everyone passports and push them out of the country. I'm saying that if that happened, those people shouldn't have access to the same benefits and facilities as Canadians who live in Canada and pay taxes in Canada.
His kids can go to school for free, using the health care for free on a regular basis and so on by being a PR too. He/she can't contribute because is poor. All the family are burden for the budget every single day while working at the low end. So Canada wants to keep all that huge problematic mass of people here? And again a PR can use the same benefits here as a citizen.
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
Lux et Veritas said:
TorontoSM: your problem is only looking at the worst case scenario. Not everyone will come back to leech off the country. Personally if i had a child, I'd rather educate them in Europe or the US since their universities are much much better. The healthcare/medical treatment is a non-issue- if you leave Canada you can't claim medical treatment in fact you have to turn in your OHIP card if you're in Ontario and the same applies in other provinces. If they come to reside in Canada again they will still have to incur significant financial expense- you may have noticed Vancouver, Toronto, etc aren't exactly cheap. Your analysis is flawed in other words.

Yes, I'm looking at the worst case scenario because this entire thread is about citizens of convenience (i.e., those people who exemplify the worst case scenario). No, not everyone will come back to leech off the country, but as I've said before, it is still a problem that needs to be addressed.

As for your claim of healthcare being a non-issue, yes you are supposed to turn in your OHIP card if you leave. But is this enforced? Absolutely not. Go onto the Health section of this forum and you will see scores of PR's who live abroad and show up in Canada for the delivery of their child or for medical treatment. So, is most certainly is an issue.

As for universities, yes there are plenty of quality schools globally. But how many are available for the same tuition fees as Canadians pay in Canada? Why do you think the fees are so low? They are heavily subsidized by the government for its citizens, and that's why there is such a significant distinction between fees for Canadians/PR's and those for international students.

And finally, as for your comment about people returning to Canada bearing expenses through elevated rent payments, how does this help the taxpayers or the government in any way? You imply that the payment of high rents entitles people to things when it definitely does not. Rents go to private individuals or companies, and there is no GST/HST on residential rent, so the government only receives a small portion through income taxes (after deducting all expenses). This is hardly enough to justify being eligible for all of the other benefits and services Canadians receive.
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
Politren said:
His kids can go to school for free, using the health care for free on a regular basis and so on by being a PR too. He/she can't contribute because is poor. All the family are burden for the budget every single day while working at the low end. So Canada wants to keep all that huge problematic mass of people here? And again a PR can use the same benefits here as a citizen.
PR's are free to leave. No one is forcing them to stay if they are so miserable.

I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying that if someone is miserable here, Canada should grant them with immediate citizenship to get them out of the country because it would be cheaper for Canada not to have to support them with welfare?
 

Politren

Hero Member
Jan 16, 2015
470
149
torontosm said:
PR's are free to leave. No one is forcing them to stay if they are so miserable.

I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying that if someone is miserable here, Canada should grant them with immediate citizenship to get them out of the country because it would be cheaper for Canada not to have to support them with welfare?
Canada wants to continue to support them by making them feel guilty if they want to leave. The longer they stay here the bigger the burden gets for the budget.
My point is that there absolutely no benefit for the economy from people in such low end jobs. And the supporters of that CoC idea want them to continue stay here.
 

links18

Champion Member
Feb 1, 2006
2,009
129
dpenabill said:
Much of the discussion above conflates the acquisition of Canadian citizenship with the behavior of Canadian citizens. It is reminiscent of the red herring arguments regarding the intent-to-continue-to-reside-in-Canada provision added by Bill C-24.

Much of the confusion and distraction is indeed rooted in Conservative rhetoric; they never have tended to be particularly competent wordsmiths.

In any event, there is, of course, no formal definition or category of "Citizenship-of-Convenience." This is not a legal classification.

The term itself is more or less a rhetorical characterization (primarily employed by Harper-era Conservatives) intended to suggest insincere if not overtly exploitative intent in the acquisition of Canadian citizenship.

It is less about Canadian citizens going abroad to live (many tens of thousands live in the U.S., and tens of thousands more live in Mexico, and tens of thousands of others live in various countries throughout the world, and the CoC label is not about them) and more about those who immigrate to Canada and stay just long enough to qualify (or fake qualifying) for and obtain citizenship, with no intent to actually become in fact Canadian citizens.

That is, the term is about those who pursue acquisition of Canadian citizenship not for the purpose of being Canadian citizens, but for this or that advantage which comes from being a Canadian citizen. (A Canadian passport, and how much easier that makes international travel, being perhaps the most commonly sought-after advantage; with access to the U.S., especially more lucrative employment opportunities in the U.S., perhaps the second-most sought-after advantage.)

Thus, obviously those who are born a Canadian citizen are not among those who would be described as acquiring Canadian citizenship as a Citizenship-of-Convenience. They are Canadian citizens when born, with no intent to exploit the system (babies are always innocent, beautifully innocent). And this is true for those born in Canada, and for those otherwise born abroad but a Canadian citizen by descent.

In contrast, for example, consider a marriage-of-convenience: it is about why and how the couple entered into the marriage relationship. A marriage does not later, after it has been entered into, become a marriage-of-convenience (well, it might, the example of Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton comes to mind). This characterization typically arises, at least in the context of Canadian immigration, regarding a marriage entered into not because the couple are in love and want to establish a life and perhaps a family together, but so that one partner might qualify to sponsor the other partner for Canadian Permanent Residence. Indeed, a marriage entered into for the purpose of facilitating a Foreign National to obtain status in Canada is defined to be a marriage-of-convenience.

Not particularly complicated.

The provision in Bill C-24 which introduced the Intent-to-continue-to-reside-in-Canada requirement was specifically intended to preclude (to the extent practical) granting citizenship to those who approached Canadian citizenship like earning a graduate degree: meet the minimum requirements, qualify, and then get the status, for the purpose of having the benefits of Canadian citizenship rather than actually becoming, in fact, a citizen of Canada.

The extent to which this is a real problem undermining the Canadian immigration system is debatable. Perhaps the number is large enough to actually undermine the system. Perhaps it is merely incidental. Obviously many Conservatives are of the former view, that the number is large and undermines the integrity and objectives of Canada's immigration system.

On the other hand, there are some who are simply offended by the prospect of the advantage being taken by those who are affluent in third world countries, those who are in a position to more easily obtain immigration to Canada and stay long enough to qualify for citizenship. A path largely unavailable to those not born to affluence in the third world. In the cosmic sense of things of course the advantage of the affluent is not fair. But then neither is the advantage enjoyed by those of us born in North America or Western Europe.

I understand why Canadian authorities are reluctant to facilitate the path to citizenship for those with no intent to actually become Canadian citizens. I doubt this is a serious problem so long as actual fraud is not being perpetrated (it was too easy, not all that long ago, for some to not even really live in Canada and on paper qualify for and obtain Canadian citizenship).

Whether or not the Senate will take up the debate about requiring an intent-to-continue-to-reside-in-Canada (which Bill C-6 proposes to remove) I cannot guess.

In the meantime is quite possible that Bill C-6 will not be stalled by the Senate and reach the Third Reading, even Royal Assent, before the summer recess. However, I would not count on that happening.

Overall, regarding the so-called Citizenship-of-Convenience, for those who are concerned there is a significant enough of a problem to warrant measures aimed at precluding or at least discouraging this, that is about the process of granting citizenship, about what is required (or should be required) in qualifying for and becoming a Naturalized citizen.

CoC has nothing to do with what Canadian citizens do AFTER they are a citizen. It is about why and how some have acquired Canadian citizenship.

Indeed, the Charter explicitly protects the right of citizens, no matter how citizenship was acquired, to leave Canada without being penalized. This does not, however, restrict the government from imposing residency requirements for certain government benefits. And indeed many benefits available to Canadians are specifically conditioned on meeting residency or presence requirements.
You had a point when you argued that the hullabaloo over the indent reside clause was a red herring, but now you are making the same argument about COCs? In a legal sense yes, because once someone is a citizen there is nothing anyone can do about their subsequent decision to live abroad, but you must realize the COC debate is not about the law, its about politics, and yes it is meant to describe the actions of people after they become Canadian citizens.

I also have no idea what you mean about people who become citizens without any intent to actually be citizens. What does that even mean? What does it mean to be a Canadian citizen? It has nothing to do with residency. There is no requirement to vote. You don't even have to file a bloody tax return, if you don't meet CRA's residency criteria. In fact, there doesn't seem to be much of a requirement to do anything really. Serve on a jury (only if you are resident). There is no military draft at the moment. So what do you mean?
 

Leon

VIP Member
Jun 13, 2008
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As for the health care aspect of it, it's based on residency and if you don't live in that province at least 5-6 months a year, you lose your eligibility. A person who lives outside Canada on a permanent basis and still keeps a health card to use for when they visit is committing health care fraud. However, plenty of people do not seem to realize it is fraud, not even Canadians who live abroad in some cases. Provincial health care needs to do a lot more of explaining to new PR's who are applying for health care that getting health care when they don't plan to stick around is fraud and that fraud is a crime and if they did, I am sure a lot fewer people would do this.

Immigration could also make it easier for PR parents to sponsor their kids who are born abroad. Currently, there is no guarantee for a PR parent to be granted a TRV for their child and this can mean that families are split up, one parent has to go to Canada and sponsor and the other stays with the child abroad and this is exactly why many PR's who live abroad choose to give birth in Canada to avoid that hassle.
 

Lux et Veritas

Star Member
Apr 25, 2015
163
7
torontosm said:
Let me turn the question around...what benefit is there for the person to stay in Canada for 4 years when he is working on the low end? Obviously he's here because he wants the citizenship. Now why would he want that? So that his kids can go to school for free, and university for cheap? so that he and his family can have access to free healthcare at will?

You are saying that Canada should hand everyone passports and push them out of the country. I'm saying that if that happened, those people shouldn't have access to the same benefits and facilities as Canadians who live in Canada and pay taxes in Canada.
You're delusional mate. They paid into the system already!!! Taxes in Canada btw are much higher than almost any other developed country (France is probably the exception). He or she wants the citizenship in spite of putting up with 4 years looking for a better future. If she had that job she'd stay longer! Kids can go to school for free in many other parts of the world by the way not just Canada, and as for cheap universities the difference is certainly not that big and the universities are publicly funded in Canada not like the US where you have public and private. The taxpayer will fund these universities irrespective of the number of Canadians there are and it's not free Canadians still pay. If universities are having trouble due to the recession then it's their call to raise their fees (or TCU to be exact if in Ontario) not banning dual citizens who already paid in the system!

You're just a racist my friend and a capital H hypocrite. You benefitted from these very laws and you want to deprive others. Everything you say is totally false and probably picked up from the Toronto Sun. And finally, like I said before and I know this as I'm researching this actively these days, if I leave Canada I'm not entitled to use OHIP or healthcare and even if I come back, I would have to inform the CRA of my income sources and how I intend to support myself.
 

Lux et Veritas

Star Member
Apr 25, 2015
163
7
Leon said:
As for the health care aspect of it, it's based on residency and if you don't live in that province at least 5-6 months a year, you lose your eligibility. A person who lives outside Canada on a permanent basis and still keeps a health card to use for when they visit is committing health care fraud.
Spot on!
 

torontosm

Champion Member
Apr 3, 2013
1,677
261
Lux et Veritas said:
You're delusional mate. They paid into the system already!!! Taxes in Canada btw are much higher than almost any other developed country (France is probably the exception).
I'm delusional? No, you are clueless. Here's a ranking of tax rates in the developed world: http://www.immigroup.com/news/how-does-canada-compare-taxes-rest-west If you bothered to educate yourself before posting, you would see that Canada is far from the top and is actually bunched in with all the other countries (barring outliers). Instead, you seem to pride yourself in coming across as an ill-informed and ignorant clown.

Despite claiming to be an economist, your grasp on things financial seems to be quite weak. I'm not even sure where to start on your argument that taxpayers would have to fund universities whether CoC's attended them or not. Are you being serious? Do you really think the cost remains the same whether new CoC students are added to the student body or not? You don't seem to realize that new students = new classrooms + new teachers + new dormitories + new infrastructure and the list goes on. Further, what about if one of those CoC students is taking the place of an international student who would otherwise pay higher fees...would the cost to the taxpayers still be the same?

I'm far from a racist and you know absolutely nothing about me. Your arguments are baseless and flawed, and as a result, you have to resort to immature name calling. As for being a hypocrite, you have yet to reply to my last message where I exposed you as the biggest hypocrite ever. You think that I'm a hypocrite because I'm an immigrant and I don't agree with the Liberals. However, you were given your PR by the Cons and you don't agree with them, and that doesn't make you a hypocrite? Your double standards are shocking.