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Can a person without status in Canada submit an Outland application?

screech339

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canuck_in_uk said:
This discussion was started in another thread. I've moved it here because it had nothing to do with the OP's topic.

From all of the comments made on here by those who have dealt with immigration lawyers, I wouldn't advise anyone to see one lol. Perhaps there are a few extremely experienced and knowledgeable lawyers out there who may be familiar with this situation but I doubt it.

Legal status has nothing to do with living. That sentence I quoted: If they live in Canada, they do not need to have legal status to be sponsored., shows that CIC is well aware that there are people without status living in Canada. There are members on here who have been out of status for years, living with their spouse, raising their children, having a home, community connections etc. Would you say that despite all of that, the fact that they are out of status means they don't actually live here?

Regarding other members' opinions, I believe that computergeek is the only senior member that I've seen disagree. Everyone else, including members like scylla and Rob_TO, have agreed.
The thing is that the guide for inland sponsorship does specifically states:

Things to remember
• A foreign national cannot become a permanent resident in Canada if he or she is inadmissible for reasons other than lack of legal immigration status in Canada.

Meanwhile, the outland sponsorship guide made no mention of this little info in the guide anywhere in the guide. Would it makes sense that to assume that "outland" applicant does not get the benefit of being "safe" from being deported for being "out of status" while applying for "outland" in Canada??
 

Ponga

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canuck_in_uk said:
This discussion was started in another thread. I've moved it here because it had nothing to do with the OP's topic.

From all of the comments made on here by those who have dealt with immigration lawyers, I wouldn't advise anyone to see one lol. Perhaps there are a few extremely experienced and knowledgeable lawyers out there who may be familiar with this situation but I doubt it.

Legal status has nothing to do with living. That sentence I quoted: If they live in Canada, they do not need to have legal status to be sponsored., shows that CIC is well aware that there are people without status living in Canada. There are members on here who have been out of status for years, living with their spouse, raising their children, having a home, community connections etc. Would you say that despite all of that, the fact that they are out of status means they don't actually live here?

Regarding other members' opinions, I believe that computergeek is the only senior member that I've seen disagree. Everyone else, including members like scylla and Rob_TO, have agreed.
For the record, the post that you quoted was potentially relevant in the original thread, prior to the OP's latest post.

It's really not a matter of semantics over the word `living'. EVERYONE seems to agree that a person cannot legally LIVE in Canada until they have PR, or at least have valid immigration status, such as a work or study permit. If a person doesn't have status, are they in fact legally living in Canada?

So, if what you believe is true, in that a person can in fact be in Canada without status and submit an Outland application...should they benefit from the substantially faster processing times?? Or, should (at the very least) their application be sent to their home Visa Office for processing, making it potentially much longer than an Inland application, while remaining in Canada without status the entire time?

Do you have a theory as to why the lack of status issue is only addressed in the In-Canada Sponsorship Guide (as well as in section 5.27 of CIC publication IP-8)?
If CIC is, as you state, aware that people are living in Canada without status, why wouldn't they include that language in the Outland Guide, or in one of the OP (Outland Processing) publications that are used by the Visa Officers?


I respect your opinion and am grateful for the information that you share and contribute to this forum.
 

canuck_in_uk

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Ponga said:
If a person doesn't have status, are they in fact legally living in Canada?
No. They are living illegally in Canada.

Ponga said:
should they benefit from the substantially faster processing times?? Or, should (at the very least) their application be sent to their home Visa Office for processing, making it potentially much longer than an Inland application, while remaining in Canada without status the entire time?
They should have the same processing time as anyone else applying through a particular outland visa office. Do you believe that people out of status should be "punished" with longer wait times?

Not quite sure what you mean by the second sentence, as the very basis of an outland app is that it is sent to their home country VO for processing (minus the exception of American apps going to Ottawa).


Ponga said:
Do you have a theory as to why the lack of status issue is only addressed in the In-Canada Sponsorship Guide (as well as in section 5.27 of CIC publication IP-8)?
If CIC is, as you state, aware that people are living in Canada without status, why wouldn't they include that language in the Outland Guide, or in one of the OP (Outland Processing) publications that are used by the Visa Officers?
I believe Rob_TO explained this quite well earlier in this thread:

Because at one point in time, legal status in Canada was a requirement to apply inland. At some point the specifically removed that clause, so they put in the wording to explain the change.

For outland is has NEVER been a requirement to have legal status anywhere to apply, so there is no point in even mentioning it. Nothing has changed. In general CIC only tells you what you need to apply... not what you don't need.



Ponga said:
I respect your opinion and am grateful for the information that you share and contribute to this forum.
Backatcha :)

BTW, I never heard back from that poster who had submitted the visitor app with their inland app. Wonder what they ended up doing.
 

screech339

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Has there be a case of CBSA backing off the deportation order because the "out of status" applicant applied "outland"? Every case of "out of status" applicants that I can seen posted here has avoid deportation has applied "inland" as opposed to "outland"

Show me a case or post whereby the out of status applicant avoid deportation or CBSA backed off deportation order by applying "outland" PR sponsorship.

Unless someone actually post a link or a posting on here that the CBSA backed off deportation order because the applicant applied outland, ROBTO's point of "living" in Canada has merit.
 

canuck_in_uk

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screech339 said:
Has there be a case of CBSA backing off the deportation order because the "out of status" applicant applied "outland"? Every case of "out of status" applicants that I can seen posted here has avoid deportation has applied "inland" as opposed to "outland"

Show me a case or post whereby the out of status applicant avoid deportation or CBSA backed off deportation order by applying "outland" PR sponsorship.

Unless someone actually post a link or a posting on here that the CBSA backed off deportation order because the applicant applied outland, ROBTO's point of "living" in Canada has merit.
The discussion is solely about whether a person without status can apply outland. No one is talking about deportation.
 

screech339

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canuck_in_uk said:
The discussion is solely about whether a person without status can apply outland. No one is talking about deportation.
The issue is that when applied inland, the "out of status" applicant can be brought under "status" of some sort once AIP is granted. That can't be done while application is submitted outland. Can't get under any form of status once AIP is reached thus susceptible to being deported despite "outland" application in process.

Sure the applicant can apply "outland" while being "out of status" but doesn't prevent CBSA from carrying out their deportation orders against the person despite "living" in Canada illegally raising a family or some sort.
 

canuck_in_uk

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screech339 said:
The issue is that when applied inland, the "out of status" applicant can be brought under "status" of some sort once AIP is granted. That can't be done while application is submitted outland. Can't get under any form of status once AIP is reached thus susceptible to being deported despite "outland" application in process.
Again, not relevant to the discussion. This thread is not about the choice between inland or outland and the risk of deportation in either situation.


screech339 said:
Sure the applicant can apply "outland" while being "out of status"
This thread is about whether that is actually true or not. Some members believe that an out of status person is not allowed to apply outland.
 

Ponga

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Ok, perhaps I should have changed the subject of this thread to:
Would it be wise for an out of status person to submit an Outland application?


If, in theory, a person can submit an Outland application and have the same general `courtesy' from CBSA to not be removed ( unless there are other reasons for doing so) as a similar person with an In-Canada sponsorship application, then...I guess the short answer would be yes?!?!
 

screech339

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canuck_in_uk said:
Again, not relevant to the discussion. This thread is not about the choice between inland or outland and the risk of deportation in either situation.


This thread is about whether that is actually true or not. Some members believe that an out of status person is not allowed to apply outland.
I agree that there is nothing preventing an "out of status" applicant from applying outland PR. It has no bearing on the applicant's legal status in Canada. However the risk of being deported is still there.

Remember the application asked where you have been for the last number of years. You have to basically tell CIC that you are currently in Canada illegally. Do you want to risk informing CIC of this and that you are applying "outland" instead of "inland"?

CIC could then take this info and pass it on to CBSA to get you deported. Since you applied outland, you have no protection or reason for CBSA to back off from the deportation order.

This is why I have only seen those who are "out of status" apply inland to get themselves protection from being deported.

Screech339
 

Ponga

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Well, here's proof that at least one person was able to make this work:
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/out-of-status-t267876.0.html;msg3978766#msg3978766

Maybe they were extremely lucky that CBSA didn't intervene, or maybe this is how it works for most applicants?
 

Zakmalik

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Ok so what of an out of status person submits an Outland application while in canada but intends to leave back to there country while the application is processing?
 

canuck_in_uk

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Zakmalik said:
Ok so what of an out of status person submits an Outland application while in canada but intends to leave back to there country while the application is processing?
Yes, you can do this.
 

screech339

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An out of status can apply outland. Nothing is stopping the applicant from doing that. The issue is whether CBSA will find you while you are awaiting PR. If, in the event, CIC/CBSA does find you, you will have no case to claim that you can stay. CBSA can deport you if it comes to that and there is nothing you can do about it.
 

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Of course, if you are deported, it could then have a negative impact on the PR application processing, as you might then be deemed inadmissible or face an exclusion period.
 

Ponga

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zardoz said:
Of course, if you are deported, it could then have a negative impact on the PR application processing, as you might then be deemed inadmissible or face an exclusion period.
Exactly!