Bill C-6, Messages between the HoC and the Senate, FACTS ONLY
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Lmastory
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Thank you so much Spyfy , I been following your C-6 info silently for some time now but today I decided to write and thank you for your consistent efforts , Danke!
Even if this Bill has not become law yet I already feel after having completed 3 years of stay last April , I can finally go on vacations without worrying about the number of days deducted from the requirement for citizenship.
Even if this Bill has not become law yet I already feel after having completed 3 years of stay last April , I can finally go on vacations without worrying about the number of days deducted from the requirement for citizenship.
Hi Spyfy
Thanks for precise and to the point updates once again.
As we know there are chances of the amended bill being disccussed in the Hoc on 29th May and we can generalize based on other bills that the amendments will either be accepted or rejected in 2,3 days after that.
My question is if the amendments are rejected ,whether you have done any fact check on how many days it usually takes for a bill to go back to senate and in how many days is it finally passed(I personally don't believe that a ping pong game will start if Hoc rejects some amendments).the reason I am asking this is because the senate will go on a three month break in mid June and just want to see the possibility of bill getting passed before that.
Thanks for precise and to the point updates once again.
As we know there are chances of the amended bill being disccussed in the Hoc on 29th May and we can generalize based on other bills that the amendments will either be accepted or rejected in 2,3 days after that.
My question is if the amendments are rejected ,whether you have done any fact check on how many days it usually takes for a bill to go back to senate and in how many days is it finally passed(I personally don't believe that a ping pong game will start if Hoc rejects some amendments).the reason I am asking this is because the senate will go on a three month break in mid June and just want to see the possibility of bill getting passed before that.
I was wondering "if some amendments are rejected" how much time does it usually take for a bill to be discussed in the senate again.Because once it's being discussed it shouldn't take more than 2,3 days.
Thanks for the kind words, everyone!
OK, so here are the answers to some of your questions:
When will C-6 be discussed in the HoC?
Note that, as quoted above, during Question Period on Thursday the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons herself said that Bill C-6 will be discussed when they come back from their ridings. This person is the one in charge of the government business in the House. So if she says that it'll happen, it'll happen. Because whatever she decides is going to be put on the agenda.
It is therefore very likely if not certain that C-6 will be discussed on Monday or Tuesday after the break (May 29/30).
How long will it take them to discuss in the HoC?
They will probably use two or three sitting days. The opposition can't delay this because the HoC uses time allocation motions to limit debate. However, note that sometimes they don't use sequential days but they mix things up, e.g. Monday C-6, Tuesday something else, Wednesday C-6 and so on. So it might take a week or something because they interrupt for other business.
What will the House decide?
You can assume with a certainty of 99.999999% that whatever the government puts down as a motion will be agreed on by the Liberal majority. So whatever will be on the Order Paper next week regarding C-6 will be what the House will vote for.
Will the HoC simply agree to all Senate amendments?
According to many reports, tweets, news stories etc. this is highly unlikely if not completely certain not to happen. The HoC will accept some and amend others. How exactly is hard to tell at the moment. But expect the due process amendment to be the core issue here.
How long does it take for the bill to get back to Senate?
This is how things went for all other ping-pong-bills this month:
- Let's say the HoC votes to accept some but not all amendments by the Senate on a Monday (just as an example)
- Then on Tuesday the Speaker of the Senate will, under government orders, read the message from the HoC to the senators.
- Then Peter Harder, the government rep in the senate, will move that the bill is put on the orders for the next sitting (= Wednesday)
- On Wednesday, Peter Harder moves that the Senate accepts the compromise offered by the HoC. Then the Senate debates that suggestion.
- In some occasions, the Senate has the vote on the very same day. But for more "debatable" bills (and obviously C-6 is such a bill), they will need several sitting days.
- Then they vote to accept the compromise or to adjust the compromise. It is more likely that they will accept the compromise. It is custom that the Senate "bows" to the will of the elected House that already proposed a compromise based on the initial amendments of the Senate.
Note that the above is just an example using weekdays for understanding. Also note that the Senate rarely sits on Mondays and Fridays. So if the HoC, say, passes the motion on a Thursday, the speaker of the senate will read the message on the following Tuesday (which is the next time the Senate sits) and so on.
Will the bill get stuck in the Senate again?
- Generally speaking, messages from the House of Commons regarding government bills have some of the highest priority in the Senate. As you can see they are usually picked up the very next day.
- The pressure regarding delays by now is very high. Note that the delay tactics used in the fall during second reading could only be used because the other senators were courteous enough to allow it. In fact, the Senate could outright downvote any request to adjourn (= delay) the debate. It is rather unusual but happens sometimes, particularly if the adjournment tactics are overused. So the Conservative Senators can't just delay bills forever or they will antagonize the Senate majority who is in favour of this bill and simply downvote delay tactics.
- Also note that the bill, at least at the moment, includes an amendment that allows minors to apply for citizenship that was championed by a Conservative senator. So there are some parts of the bill now that even some Conservative senators want to get passed.
Does Royal Assent only happen while the Parliament is sitting?
- Someone asked what would happen if parliament passes the law on the very last day before the summer break
- The good news is: The bill still receives royal assent within days (if not on the very same day), it won't just hang around on the Governor-General's table for all of summer. He doesn't take a break on the same day.
- Fun fact: Did you know that while royal assent is usually just given by signature, every now an then, the GG comes to the Senate and sits on the throne, then the bill is held in front of him and he simply gives a single nod with his head? That is actually a legally binding way to give royal assent.
Disclaimer
We all are well aware by now that C-6 is a very special bill. Above I described the regular path such ping-pong-bills take time wise. But don't sue me if in the end this bill has a different run.
OK, so here are the answers to some of your questions:
When will C-6 be discussed in the HoC?
Note that, as quoted above, during Question Period on Thursday the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons herself said that Bill C-6 will be discussed when they come back from their ridings. This person is the one in charge of the government business in the House. So if she says that it'll happen, it'll happen. Because whatever she decides is going to be put on the agenda.
It is therefore very likely if not certain that C-6 will be discussed on Monday or Tuesday after the break (May 29/30).
How long will it take them to discuss in the HoC?
They will probably use two or three sitting days. The opposition can't delay this because the HoC uses time allocation motions to limit debate. However, note that sometimes they don't use sequential days but they mix things up, e.g. Monday C-6, Tuesday something else, Wednesday C-6 and so on. So it might take a week or something because they interrupt for other business.
What will the House decide?
You can assume with a certainty of 99.999999% that whatever the government puts down as a motion will be agreed on by the Liberal majority. So whatever will be on the Order Paper next week regarding C-6 will be what the House will vote for.
Will the HoC simply agree to all Senate amendments?
According to many reports, tweets, news stories etc. this is highly unlikely if not completely certain not to happen. The HoC will accept some and amend others. How exactly is hard to tell at the moment. But expect the due process amendment to be the core issue here.
How long does it take for the bill to get back to Senate?
This is how things went for all other ping-pong-bills this month:
- Let's say the HoC votes to accept some but not all amendments by the Senate on a Monday (just as an example)
- Then on Tuesday the Speaker of the Senate will, under government orders, read the message from the HoC to the senators.
- Then Peter Harder, the government rep in the senate, will move that the bill is put on the orders for the next sitting (= Wednesday)
- On Wednesday, Peter Harder moves that the Senate accepts the compromise offered by the HoC. Then the Senate debates that suggestion.
- In some occasions, the Senate has the vote on the very same day. But for more "debatable" bills (and obviously C-6 is such a bill), they will need several sitting days.
- Then they vote to accept the compromise or to adjust the compromise. It is more likely that they will accept the compromise. It is custom that the Senate "bows" to the will of the elected House that already proposed a compromise based on the initial amendments of the Senate.
Note that the above is just an example using weekdays for understanding. Also note that the Senate rarely sits on Mondays and Fridays. So if the HoC, say, passes the motion on a Thursday, the speaker of the senate will read the message on the following Tuesday (which is the next time the Senate sits) and so on.
Will the bill get stuck in the Senate again?
- Generally speaking, messages from the House of Commons regarding government bills have some of the highest priority in the Senate. As you can see they are usually picked up the very next day.
- The pressure regarding delays by now is very high. Note that the delay tactics used in the fall during second reading could only be used because the other senators were courteous enough to allow it. In fact, the Senate could outright downvote any request to adjourn (= delay) the debate. It is rather unusual but happens sometimes, particularly if the adjournment tactics are overused. So the Conservative Senators can't just delay bills forever or they will antagonize the Senate majority who is in favour of this bill and simply downvote delay tactics.
- Also note that the bill, at least at the moment, includes an amendment that allows minors to apply for citizenship that was championed by a Conservative senator. So there are some parts of the bill now that even some Conservative senators want to get passed.
Does Royal Assent only happen while the Parliament is sitting?
- Someone asked what would happen if parliament passes the law on the very last day before the summer break
- The good news is: The bill still receives royal assent within days (if not on the very same day), it won't just hang around on the Governor-General's table for all of summer. He doesn't take a break on the same day.
- Fun fact: Did you know that while royal assent is usually just given by signature, every now an then, the GG comes to the Senate and sits on the throne, then the bill is held in front of him and he simply gives a single nod with his head? That is actually a legally binding way to give royal assent.
Disclaimer
We all are well aware by now that C-6 is a very special bill. Above I described the regular path such ping-pong-bills take time wise. But don't sue me if in the end this bill has a different run.
Minor correction regarding royal assent
I was mistaken, in fact royal assent does not take effect until it was actually announced in the Senate and the HoC that royal assent was given. While the HoC allows assent to be given simply by written notice even if its not in session, the announcement of royal assent MUST be read out loud by the speaker in the Senate to take effect. So if indeed the Senate passes the bill on the very last sitting day and adjourns right after, the bill would have to wait until September.
This is obviously a very unlikely scenario.
I was mistaken, in fact royal assent does not take effect until it was actually announced in the Senate and the HoC that royal assent was given. While the HoC allows assent to be given simply by written notice even if its not in session, the announcement of royal assent MUST be read out loud by the speaker in the Senate to take effect. So if indeed the Senate passes the bill on the very last sitting day and adjourns right after, the bill would have to wait until September.
This is obviously a very unlikely scenario.
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Thanks spyfy for that extremely detailed and thorough post that analyzed every single possibility!
I would like to clarify one small thing that googling does not provide an answer for:
Do members of the house ALWAYS vote on party lines or do they sometimes oppose their own party and stand on principle, if something really egregious is in a bill?
For instance let's say that the Conservative party is in the majority and they have a bill that goes against the Bill of Rights to strip citizenship. Would some cons oppose it out of principle, or are they bound to vote on party lines?
Thanks!
I would like to clarify one small thing that googling does not provide an answer for:
Do members of the house ALWAYS vote on party lines or do they sometimes oppose their own party and stand on principle, if something really egregious is in a bill?
For instance let's say that the Conservative party is in the majority and they have a bill that goes against the Bill of Rights to strip citizenship. Would some cons oppose it out of principle, or are they bound to vote on party lines?
Thanks!
While legally, any MP can vote whatever he/she wants, party discipline in the HoC is very high. That means if you vote against the official party line, you will face consequences (important politicians won't come to your riding to support you, it is harder for you to get funding, you won't be heard when suggesting changes in drafts of government legislation,...). If anything, you might conveniently miss a voting day as to not to have to vote in favour of something you oppose. This is rare though.
Sometimes, the party allows a vote of conscience which is not along party lines. Often things that are ethical issues fall into that category.
No party could propose legislation that obviously goes against the Constitution or quasi-constitutional like the Bill of Rights without facing opposition from their own MPs. Laws regarding stripping citizenship would not even remotely fall into that category, though. Rarely is it obvious that something goes against the Constitution. It is the for the courts to decide that and they will not do that until the bill became law. A future Conservative government could very well propose legislation that makes stripping citizenship easier again and no Conservative MP would even see the need to oppose it in the first place. What do they have to lose?
I have a question!
What is the fee for citizenship right now and what would be a change in fee after the c6?
What is the fee for citizenship right now and what would be a change in fee after the c6?
I don't know why a lot of people think the bill c-6 won't be voted in HoC. The most problematic amendments have already been rejected. So it's more a matter of weeks before the Royal Assent.
Here's the Senate's amendments :
More delays will rise the anger of the both side....
Here's the Senate's amendments :
- Gives Canadians the right to a hearing before citizenship can be revoked in cases of fraud in the application process.
- Allow minors the right to apply for citizenship without parents. Currently, if the parents are rejected, the child is too. The child then has to wait until they are 18 to re-apply.
- Changes the age range for language testing for applicants between the age of 18 to 60. Under current law, mandatory language tests apply to immigrants aged 14 to 64. The original Bill C-6 proposed a range of 18 to 54.
More delays will rise the anger of the both side....