Bill C-24 Second Reading on February 27th:

[daktrader]

Its very hard to define the "Intent to reside in Canada" clause...
Once an applicant becomes a citizen he/she is free to move anywhere in the world...No one can stop that...
The Govt can have controls on it such as (Filing Taxes on Foreign Income etc...)

Circumstances differ from one individual to another, so you cant really say that all naturalized citizens must remain in Canada.

 

[doctorkb]

Its very hard to define the "Intent to reside in Canada" clause...
Once an applicant becomes a citizen he/she is free to move anywhere in the world...No one can stop that...
The Govt can have controls on it such as (Filing Taxes on Foreign Income etc...)

Circumstances differ from one individual to another, so you cant really say that all naturalized citizens must remain in Canada.

And I don't think anyone is saying you must remain. The issue is intent immediately following naturalization.

If your intent is to leave Canada (permanently) the day after you take the oath, you shouldn't be taking the oath. You have no interest in citizenship (i.e. participation) here, you just want the benefits that come with it (the passport from a peaceful nation).

 

[on-hold]

And I don't think anyone is saying you must remain. The issue is intent immediately following naturalization.

If your intent is to leave Canada (permanently) the day after you take the oath, you shouldn't be taking the oath. You have no interest in citizenship (i.e. participation) here, you just want the benefits that come with it (the passport from a peaceful nation).

And how will you classify intent? The naturalized immigrant who leaves to start a Canadian-International business, and finds that things develop afterwards in ways that require them to stay abroad longer than they thought? The naturalized immigrant who leaves to take care of an ill parent, and finds that they inherit property or obligations that tie them down for some years? Who made you the arbiter of whether these two people are cheats?

What is there in the new legislation that will prevent this?

Your statement is simple, but it is actually asking for an extremely intrusive policy -- a CIC that would look at the three people above and try to identify their 'intent'. It also assumes naturalized citizens who are under scrutiny, and have obligations, that are very different from birth canadians. Who will monitor immigrants in the months before, and the months after, their naturalization ceremony? And how many months is enough? When will immigrants acquire the right to travel the world like birth Canadians? 6 months? 12 months? When do they become full humans?

Or will this never be specified, so that people like you can meet naturalized Canadians living abroad and then quiz them as to their lives, to try and figure out if they are 'cheating' or not?

 

[Tolerance]

And I don't think anyone is saying you must remain. The issue is intent immediately following naturalization.

If your intent is to leave Canada (permanently) the day after you take the oath, you shouldn't be taking the oath. You have no interest in citizenship (i.e. participation) here, you just want the benefits that come with it (the passport from a peaceful nation).

Why are you trying to say that unless you live in Canada, you have no interest in Canadian citizenship? Citizenship has nothing do to with how long you live where. Such statements can only be understood as coming from people who have never left their doorstep.

Conservative propaganda and nonsense starting to affect people's common sense now.

And when you say that new citizens must "intend to continue to reside in Canada" (and sign a statement) it is obvious at some point they might get in trouble if they leave for whatever reason. So stop listening to what 'everyone is saying', pay attention to the wording of the bill.

As I said previously, I think all Canadian citizens must be immediately pulled back from abroad and made to live in Canada, nowhere else. If they don't want to do that => they have no interest in citizenship. A lot of false arguments here.

By the way, the petition is now at 27,395. Got 8 more in about five minutes .

 

[on-hold]

Why are you trying to say that unless you live in Canada, you have no interest in Canadian citizenship? Citizenship has nothing do to with how long you live where. Such statements can only be understood as coming from people who have never left their doorstep.

Conservative propaganda and nonsense starting to affect people's common sense now.

And when you say that new citizens must "intend to continue to reside in Canada" (and sign a statement) it is obvious at some point they might get in trouble if they leave for whatever reason. So stop listening to what 'everyone is saying', pay attention to the wording of the bill.

As I said previously, I think all Canadian citizens must be immediately pulled back from abroad and made to live in Canada, nowhere else. If they don't want to do that => they have no interest in citizenship. A lot of false arguments here.

By the way, the petition is now at 27,395. Got 8 more in about five minutes .

These are excellent points -- a Canadian citizen is a Canadian anywhere in the world, not just in Canada. What kind of country (or person) is feared and dismayed when its citizens travel abroad?

 

[doctorkb]

And how will you classify intent? The naturalized immigrant who leaves to start a Canadian-International business, and finds that things develop afterwards in ways that require them to stay abroad longer than they thought? The naturalized immigrant who leaves to take care of an ill parent, and finds that they inherit property or obligations that tie them down for some years? Who made you the arbiter of whether these two people are cheats?

What is there in the new legislation that will prevent this?

Your statement is simple, but it is actually asking for an extremely intrusive policy -- a CIC that would look at the three people above and try to identify their 'intent'. It also assumes naturalized citizens who are under scrutiny, and have obligations, that are very different from birth canadians. Who will monitor immigrants in the months before, and the months after, their naturalization ceremony? And how many months is enough? When will immigrants acquire the right to travel the world like birth Canadians? 6 months? 12 months? When do they become full humans?

Or will this never be specified, so that people like you can meet naturalized Canadians living abroad and then quiz them as to their lives, to try and figure out if they are 'cheating' or not?

I think you're overreaching here. If your declared intent is one thing, but your apparent intent is another, you'll get an interview before you get citizenship. If your circumstances change after naturalization, I don't think you're going to be scrutinized.

OTOH, if you later say "yeah, I got this so I could travel the world without using my <insert home country here> passport -- haven't been back since, and don't intend to go back" publicly, I'd hope they'd at least call you up and question it.

 

[CanV]

Sure, they are so racist that they have increased immigration levels and new citizenship grants to levels that exceed any other government in Canadian history. That makes sense.

They did what now?????

Both immigration and citizenship applications have increased the past 50 years at least, except for very few exceptional years due to economic downturns. And if you look at the numbers, they are the lowest percentage, least efficient years in canada immigration history.

I have no idea what you are defending here. I hope you arent saying this government is pro immigrants. Do you realize how immigrants feel about them???? First they drop hundreds thousands of FSW applications, I bet have of them already had relatives in Canada. Then they made it hard to qualify for immigration with the non sense list of eligible occupations, none of which you will work in when you get here. Then shutting the door on hundreds of people needing refuge. Not to mention they took 10 syrian refugees in all 3 years of crisis, thats after they promised to to take 1300 last summer, which is well below any country has took. And now we have this non sense citizenship bill that they dont want to discuss with anyone, they just want to pass at any cost.

 

[on-hold]

I think you're overreaching here. If your declared intent is one thing, but your apparent intent is another, you'll get an interview before you get citizenship. If your circumstances change after naturalization, I don't think you're going to be scrutinized.

How could this be possible, when Minister Alexander himself tells us that this nonsense clause applies to PRs prior to receiving citizenship?

 

[Tolerance]

I think you're overreaching here. If your declared intent is one thing, but your apparent intent is another, you'll get an interview before you get citizenship. If your circumstances change after naturalization, I don't think you're going to be scrutinized.

OTOH, if you later say "yeah, I got this so I could travel the world without using my <insert home country here> passport -- haven't been back since, and don't intend to go back" publicly, I'd hope they'd at least call you up and question it.

How can they intend not to go back from the other country? Like being in Canada, living somewhere else is subject to change. If you get a better job offer, have to tend for sick family members, or go to school, you will go to the other country. For me, that changed several times in my life.

The argument above just shows how ridiculous intent to reside is. Especially when supported by purported immigrants who will be punished by it (immigrants or Cons' trolls ?)

 

[zardoz]

How could this be possible, when Minister Alexander himself tells us that this nonsense clause applies to PRs prior to receiving citizenship?

As I suggested before, ignore what is said. Read the words in the legislation. That's all that matters.

 

[doctorkb]

Why are you trying to say that unless you live in Canada, you have no interest in Canadian citizenship? Citizenship has nothing do to with how long you live where. Such statements can only be understood as coming from people who have never left their doorstep.

Basic definition of citizenship, from wikipedia:

Citizenship is the status of a person recognised under the custom or law of a state that bestows on that person (called a citizen) the rights and the duties of citizenship. That may include the right to vote, work and live in the country, the right to return to the country, the right to own real estate, legal protections against the country's government, and protection through the military or diplomacy. A citizen may also be subject to certain duties, such as a duty to follow the country's law, to pay taxes, or to serve in the military.

A duty of a citizen in Canada is to participate. From Discover Canada (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/publications/discover/section-04.asp):

In Canada, rights come with responsibilities. These include:

[*]Obeying the law — One of Canada’s founding principles is the rule of law. Individuals and governments are regulated by laws and not by arbitrary actions. No person or group is above the law.
[*]Taking responsibility for oneself and one’s family — Getting a job, taking care of one’s family and working hard in keeping with one’s abilities are important Canadian values. Work contributes to personal dignity and self-respect, and to Canada’s prosperity.
[*]Serving on a jury — When called to do so, you are legally required to serve. Serving on a jury is a privilege that makes the justice system work as it depends on impartial juries made up of citizens.
[*]Voting in elections — The right to vote comes with a responsibility to vote in federal, provincial or territorial and local elections.
[*]Helping others in the community — Millions of volunteers freely donate their time to help others without pay—helping people in need, assisting at your child’s school, volunteering at a food bank or other charity, or encouraging newcomers to integrate. Volunteering is an excellent way to gain useful skills and develop friends and contacts.
[*]Protecting and enjoying our heritage and environment — Every citizen has a role to play in avoiding waste and pollution while protecting Canada’s natural, cultural and architectural heritage for future generations.

Note -- it's pretty hard to do points 3, 4, 5 and 6 if you're not living here. Furthermore, point #2 mentions contributing to Canada's prosperity... again, difficult to do if you're not living and working here.

And when you say that new citizens must "intend to continue to reside in Canada" (and sign a statement) it is obvious at some point they might get in trouble if they leave for whatever reason.

Intent is based on circumstances. When you sign it, you know whether your intent is to reside here, or if it is to leave and never come back.

As I said previously, I think all Canadian citizens must be immediately pulled back from abroad and made to live in Canada, nowhere else. If they don't want to do that => they have no interest in citizenship. A lot of false arguments here.

You, too, are missing the point. The issue isn't living somewhere else -- it's why you sought Canadian citizenship. If you're seeking it because you find it difficult to travel with a Middle Eastern passport, that's a BAD reason.

 

[doctorkb]

How can they intend not to go back from the other country? Like being in Canada, living somewhere else is subject to change. If you get a better job offer, have to tend for sick family members, or go to school, you will go to the other country. For me, that changed several times in my life.

The argument above just shows how ridiculous intent to reside is. Especially when supported by purported immigrants who will be punished by it (immigrants or Cons' trolls ?)

I meant that they don't intend to ever go back to Canada. Sorry for not being clear.

I support LEGITIMATE immigration. Not abuse of the system. And getting Canadian citizenship, but not for the purpose of residing in Canada and participating in Canadian society is abuse.

This abuse is just the same as a marriage of convenience in order to get PR. If you think it's OK for someone to marry for the sole purpose of immigrating, then you need to get the heck out of here...

 

[Tolerance]

Basic definition of citizenship, from wikipedia:
A duty of a citizen in Canada is to participate. From Discover Canada (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/publications/discover/section-04.asp):
Note -- it's pretty hard to do points 3, 4, 5 and 6 if you're not living here. Furthermore, point #2 mentions contributing to Canada's prosperity... again, difficult to do if you're not living and working here.

Intent is based on circumstances. When you sign it, you know whether your intent is to reside here, or if it is to leave and never come back.

You, too, are missing the point. The issue isn't living somewhere else -- it's why you sought Canadian citizenship. If you're seeking it because you find it difficult to travel with a Middle Eastern passport, that's a BAD reason.

Dude, please don't quote Wikipedia as a meaningful source of anything.

I don't have a Middle Eastern passport, but I think this is very offensive to those who do. Reporting to administrator.

 

[torontosm]

They did what now?????

Both immigration and citizenship applications have increased the past 50 years at least, except for very few exceptional years due to economic downturns. And if you look at the numbers, they are the lowest percentage, least efficient years in canada immigration history.

I have no idea what you are defending here. I hope you arent saying this government is pro immigrants. Do you realize how immigrants feel about them???? First they drop hundreds thousands of FSW applications, I bet have of them already had relatives in Canada. Then they made it hard to qualify for immigration with the non sense list of eligible occupations, none of which you will work in when you get here. Then shutting the door on hundreds of people needing refuge. Not to mention they took 10 syrian refugees in all 3 years of crisis, thats after they promised to to take 1300 last summer, which is well below any country has took. And now we have this non sense citizenship bill that they dont want to discuss with anyone, they just want to pass at any cost.

Yes, as you said in your own post, immigration levels have increased under this government. That was my point. Now if Cons were truly "racist", would they do that, or would they seek to reverse the trend and allow less immigrants into Canada? Also, the Cons were the ones, rightly or wrongly, who created the whole TFW mess. Like it or not, they did allow in more foreigners and provide a path to PR for them.

How the immigrants feel about a government is irrelevant to the government's immigration policies. The same immigrants that are complaining about c-24 all received their PR's under the current conservative government. I bet they felt pretty good about the Conservatives when they received their COPR in the mail.

Reading the various threads in this forum, it seems like the Cons just can't win. You criticize them for cutting down on FSW, while others criticize them for not having enough jobs in Canada for FSW's that were previously allowed in. You call them racist while others abuse them for allowing in too many foreigners under TFW. Make up your minds!

 

[doctorkb]

Dude, please don't quote Wikipedia as a meaningful source of anything.

The quote was the definition of citizenship -- pretty sure that's a reliable and meaningful source (despite what you may believe -- would you prefer the less trustworthy Encyclopaedia Britannica?). What you clearly missed was that I also quoted Discover Canada.

I don't have a Middle Eastern passport, but I think this is very offensive to those who do. Reporting to administrator.

It's a point in fact. If you have a Middle Eastern passport, you will face more scrutiny at many border control points. I've been behind people holding those passports who are attempting to enter Canada or the US -- and yes, they are much more heavily scrutinized. Is this right? I don't know. Does it happen, heck yeah.