Bill C-24 Second Reading on February 27th:

[glowingheart]

Watch Rocco Galati on CBC

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2464051095/

What Rocco opposes is the revoking of the citizenship of a Canadian born, not the whole bill like some say

guys that doesn't include any of us

 

[sicko86]

might have not finished yet. Just need to check it tomorrow morning. If HoC 3rd reading passes, guess tomorrow will be senate 1st reading.

Not finished till now? is that possible it is 11:34PM?

 

[chakrab]

Not finished till now? is that possible it is 11:34PM?

2nd reading continued till 12:30 a.m.

 

[chakrab]

they are doing 3rd reading of C-31 right now. believe C-24 was after that. not sure.

 

[taleodor]

lol. look i understand you guys and your worries. but in 10 to 20 years when we are planning to send the kids to college, i don't any of us will be thinking how much international students are helping with generating revenue for the govt when we are paying similar rates.

I'd say, there must be a balance here, as with lots of other things. If you stop accepting international students completely, Canadian schools will fall in the ratings, so nobody would want to study there. Canadians would be heading south of the border for a good education.

On the other side, if you don't care about anything but money (typical Cons' approach), you end up in a situation, when no one really has access to education. So you have a bunch of 'virtual' schools with atrocious fees. It's not actually about immigrants, that's a much broader question.
It's really a different subject and an off-topic, has nothing to do with the issues we are talking about here.

+ In any case, Conservatives are unable to solve any of those problems that exist. This Government has a proven record that they only know how to make things worse..

 

[chakrab]

I'd say, there must be a balance here, as with lots of other things. If you stop accepting international students completely, Canadian schools will fall in the ratings, so nobody would want to study there. Canadians would be heading south of the border for a good education.

On the other side, if you don't care about anything but money (typical Cons' approach), you end up in a situation, when no one really has access to education. So you have a bunch of 'virtual' schools with atrocious fees. It's not actually about immigrants, that's a much broader question.
It's really a different subject and an off-topic, has nothing to do with the issues we are talking about here.

+ In any case, Conservatives are unable to solve any of those problems that exist. This Government has a proven record that they only know how to make things worse..

this is exactly where both parties - pro and against the bill - agree that there needs to be a balance. international students generate revenue and help the economy. agreed. but it is also coming at a big cost for future canadians. same with temporary workers. no one disagrees that they dont contribute or make an impact, but it shouldn't be a negative impact to the citizens. one of the major problems with the citizenship process (and i believe that started the whole residency debate) was the business immigration program. it granted PR and citizenship to people who paid their way through the system. it was a favourite for the cons and then it started to bite them back, due to the various fraud cases.

it's true the immigration system needs modifying. but i think the govt is looking at the wrong end. they should make PR much harder so that people actually invest time and money in canada and get to know what canadian life is. heck i don't mind increased time from PR to citizenship. but once a citizen, then leave them off the immigration scrutiny. if the govt works on an efficient plan for PR requirements, then that will result in efficient citizens.

 

[anon123]

On the other hand, I agree, that since 2006 Conservatives have completely screwed the whole Immigration system. Right now it's such a mess to the point that it's hard to say, from which end it should be fixed.

Problem is, they are continuing to make it worse.

I disagree. Since taking power the Conservative party has continued the reforms in the right direction. I think the problems started with the TFW scandal. Now they are looking for ways to make anti-immigrant voters happy while still pleasing businesses. What better way than to make all immigrants tied to their boss for life?

The immigration system should be fixed first and foremost by implementing mandatory exit checks at all Canadian ports. Should a temporary resident / PR attempt to enter the country without "exit record" s/he should be referred to immigration officer to prove beyond doubt the date s/he left Canada. This measure alone will stop 90% of all citizenship abuse and make the process much easier for lawful applicants.

Next, CIC should make sure they give PR only to people who have a real chance of finding a skilled job in Canada. Instead of giving out PRs to anyone with a diploma who fills an application, they should give them temporary worker permits first. Only after a PR candidate has proven s/he can find a skilled job and keep if for a year should they receive PR. This measure will resolve all "wrong expectations" such as a neurosurgeon with 10 years experience coming to Canada and realizing the best job he can get is as a taxi driver.

If people have quality jobs and all opportunities to cheat the system are eliminated, there will be no abuse. There is no need to change the citizenship law. The abuse can be stopped with CIC regulations.

 

[chakrab]

I disagree. Since taking power the Conservative party has continued the reforms in the right direction. I think the problems started with the TFW scandal. Now they are looking for ways to make anti-immigrant voters happy while still pleasing businesses. What better way than to make all immigrants tied to their boss for life?

The immigration system should be fixed first and foremost by implementing mandatory exit checks at all Canadian ports. Should a temporary resident / PR attempt to enter the country without "exit record" s/he should be referred to immigration officer to prove beyond doubt the date s/he left Canada. This measure alone will stop 90% of all citizenship abuse and make the process much easier for lawful applicants.

Next, CIC should make sure they give PR only to people who have a real chance of finding a skilled job in Canada. Instead of giving out PRs to anyone with a diploma who fills an application, they should give them temporary worker permits first. Only after a PR candidate has proven s/he can find a skilled job and keep if for a year should they receive PR. This measure will resolve all "wrong expectations" such as a neurosurgeon with 10 years experience coming to Canada and realizing the best job he can get is as a taxi driver.

If people have quality jobs and all opportunities to cheat the system are eliminated, there will be no abuse. There is no need to change the citizenship law. The abuse can be stopped with CIC regulations.

i think thats a great point. only provide PRs to CEC and Dependents categories. FSW could be turned to a 4-5 years OWP depending on qualifications.

 

[taleodor]

I disagree. Since taking power the Conservative party has continued the reforms in the right direction. I think the problems started with the TFW scandal. Now they are looking for ways to make anti-immigrant voters happy while still pleasing businesses. What better way than to make all immigrants tied to their boss for life?

The immigration system should be fixed first and foremost by implementing mandatory exit checks at all Canadian ports. Should a temporary resident / PR attempt to enter the country without "exit record" s/he should be referred to immigration officer to prove beyond doubt the date s/he left Canada. This measure alone will stop 90% of all citizenship abuse and make the process much easier for lawful applicants.

Next, CIC should make sure they give PR only to people who have a real chance of finding a skilled job in Canada. Instead of giving out PRs to anyone with a diploma who fills an application, they should give them temporary worker permits first. Only after a PR candidate has proven s/he can find a skilled job and keep if for a year should they receive PR. This measure will resolve all "wrong expectations" such as a neurosurgeon with 10 years experience coming to Canada and realizing the best job he can get is as a taxi driver.

If people have quality jobs and all opportunities to cheat the system are eliminated, there will be no abuse. There is no need to change the citizenship law. The abuse can be stopped with CIC regulations.

Huh, I probably missed the part, where they are going to reinstate slavery :

Don't see a point to talk any further, but just FYI, the 'TFW scandal' (as almost all other current issues with Immigration) is a result of a 10-year policy led by Conservatives.

 

[MrB]

The Temporary Workers and Foreign Students we're talking about have no better understanding of citizenship than the people who land here as permanent residents. We all understand citizenship for what it is: a status that allows you the privilege of drawing a passport from Canada. Let's be honest here. Nobody applies for Canadian citizenship just for the hell of it. If I were to tell you "You can apply for citizenship but it doesn't come with the right to get a passport. Not for you!" would you be motivated to apply?

Well you might want to direct the understanding of citizenship to the minister himself. That's his logic and based on what he said, he is implying that those who are well integrated into Canadian society are more likely to value it and less likely to abuse it. It's not rocket science, neither I'm I implying that it's absolute, however it common sense that those who have spent time here pre-pr are more likely to integrate faster into Canadian society than those who haven't.

[/quote]
Sorry but unless you're Albert Einstein or a Nobel Prize winner, you're gonna have a hard time convincing me that as a TFW or Foreign Student you've been "contributing" to society. What you've been doing is trying to improve your economic lot, which is fine by me as long as you call it what it is. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, "contribute to society" is a cheap soundbyte designed to move people at an emotional level.
[/quote]

No disrespect to you, but the statement above is very one dimensional and lacks depth. Foreigners especially, TFW and International Students contribute significantly to Canada's economic well being. It's pretty obvious I don't think I need to delve into that in detail. The numbers don't lie check the score board...lol.

[/quote]
Again, soundbytes: "all immigrants are not equal" and "fighting for equality". Who are you to say that someone who got her permanent residence from outside Canada is less entitled to citizenship than someone who spent time here as a non-immigrant? I have to concede: I don't know that there is any objective standard on this. I'm pretty sure a Canadian citizen would argue that his spouse, whom he sponsored three years ago as a permanent resident should be given priority over anyone else. Try as I might, I can't think of any argument to offer against THAT.
[/quote]

I never said they were less entitled if they applied outside of Canada, but it does make sense that preference be given to those who have more experience, specifically Canadian experience. Most Canadian immigration streams reward, things like numbers of years of work experience, relatives in Canada, years of education e.t.c It's the same concept, the preference applies more to the process.

To answer your question Canada already prioritizes the processing spousal sponsorship application. The reason for this might not be obvious to the layman but one of the major objectives of Canadian immigration as stated in the IRPA is family reunification. Another major objective for Canadian immigration is economic stimulation, I don't think I need to explain how international students and temporary foreign workers contribute to that.


[/quote]No, there's very little about it that's logical. People who have stayed here a lot of years by extending their worker or student status have done so in order to continue looking for ways to qualify to get permanent residence without having to first return home (where it would be much harder to do so). Once they get permanent residence and citizenship you'll see a huge increase in the trips they take abroad (mostly back to their home countries to brag to family and friends about their new PR Card or Passport). Don't insult us. Many of us have been through similar hoops ourselves. We know how it works.
[/quote]

I'm sorry you felt insulted but then again you make dangerous generalizations. Permanent residency and citizenship is something to be proud of and to celebrate. If you "brag" about it or abuse the system it tells a lot about that individuals character but it doesn't change the fact that those who have stayed here are more likely than any other group of people to integrate into Canadian society. Keep in mind that the emphasis is on more likely, it's not absolute.

 

[anon123]

Huh, I probably missed the part, where they are going to reinstate slavery :

Don't see a point to talk any further, but just FYI, the 'TFW scandal' (as almost all other current issues with Immigration) is a result of a 10-year policy led by Conservatives.

The "slavery" will be people unable to take jobs with the Canadian Forces or the public service, instead having to work some subpar job while waiting 2 more years for citizenship. Or people afraid to further their career by going for education, international experience, volunteering, to other countries once granted citizenship.

We all agree that there are issues with Immigration. The main issues are:
- people unlawfully claiming residence while living in their homelands
- people unable to find skilled jobs in Canada due to lack of Canadian experience and education, decide to go to other countries after getting a passport
- people "buying" Canadian passports for the ease of travel

Bill C-24 addresses none of these issues. Instead of falsely claiming 3 years in Canada, fraudsters will now claim 4. People unhappy with their Canadian careers will falsely declare intent to reside, for them there is nothing to lose, they are desperate. People with money can still come as "skilled workers" and do whatever they do and not look for a job.

My proposed change, not granting PR to people without Canadian skilled work experience, but granting qualified applicants open work permits instead, will address all 3 issues.

 

[taleodor]

The "slavery" will be people unable to take jobs with the Canadian Forces or the public service, instead having to work some subpar job while waiting 2 more years for citizenship. Or people afraid to further their career by going for education, international experience, volunteering, to other countries once granted citizenship.

We all agree that there are issues with Immigration. The main issues are:
- people unlawfully claiming residence while living in their homelands
- people unable to find skilled jobs in Canada due to lack of Canadian experience and education, decide to go to other countries after getting a passport
- people "buying" Canadian passports for the ease of travel

Bill C-24 addresses none of these issues. Instead of falsely claiming 3 years in Canada, fraudsters will now claim 4. People unhappy with their Canadian careers will falsely declare intent to reside, for them there is nothing to lose, they are desperate. People with money can still come as "skilled workers" and do whatever they do and not look for a job.

My proposed change, not granting PR to people without Canadian skilled work experience, but granting qualified applicants open work permits instead, will address all 3 issues.

Sorry, I just can't understand how you can support Conservatives having such opinion.

I can't say I agree with you, but you raise some questions which can be discussed outside of this topic.

The thing is that Conservatives exactly want this 2 years of slavery, and potentially much more than 2 years. They don't really care about anything else. They are not going to solve any issues, because they are interested in ruining Immigration further.

 

[anon123]

Sorry, I just can't understand how you can support Conservatives having such opinion.

I can't say I agree with you, but you raise some questions which can be discussed outside of this topic.

The thing is that Conservatives exactly want this 2 years of slavery, and potentially much more than 2 years. They don't really care about anything else. They are not going to solve any issues, because they are interested in ruining Immigration further.

I don't say I am supporting Conservatives in general. I am supporting some of the programs they introduced (CEC, Post-Grad Work Permits, Off-Campus Work Permits, etc.) to allow people with Canadian experience to become PRs. I don't support bill C-24.

Also, I am not sure if Conservatives really want slavery, I think they just want to get re-elected. They think bill C-24 will touch Canadians' hearts. But it's backfiring. They would benefit much more if they introduced the changes I suggest.

 

[munter]

Question :

As they have a plan for future Do you think some immigrants & workers or refugee's will leave Canada after the new rule applies because of the extend period which they were not expecting ? as with the new rule a minimum period of 2 years will be added to anyone plus of course the intend to reside Part !

I am not an economist nor am I a sociologist so I'm not best placed to advise on immigration policy all I can do is provide my personal experience. I am a permanent resident and worked on a non immigrant visa for the CPP for some years beforehand. Because of this bill it will take me two more years than previously to be eligible for citizenship. Now I need to reassess my options. I can work anywhere in the world and I don't think Canada is worth the investment anymore, reinforced by the bad taste of non merit based social elitism from this bill. What Canada has told us is that they don't care about us but that they will use us if we are useful. Fine, that's good business. But this bill is bad business. I provide skills that Canada has a short supply of, I command a high salary, therefore pay a lot of income tax and increase the competitiveness of a Canadian company that competes globally therefore increasing GDP. I will now leave, first to the us for a number of years and later I'll return to london. I am articulate and reliable and have never caused social problems. I am not particularly loyal to Canada, it is not where I was born or have allegiance to but I share the same values as most Canadians. From my own experience, myself and others like me who leave are Canada's loss. The carrot is gone, I can't trust policy and I am done but I still had a good time.

 

[MrB]

I am not an economist nor am I a sociologist so I'm not best placed to advise on immigration policy all I can do is provide my personal experience. I am a permanent resident and worked on a non immigrant visa for the CPP for some years beforehand. Because of this bill it will take me two more years than previously to be eligible for citizenship. Now I need to reassess my options. I can work anywhere in the world and I don't think Canada is worth the investment anymore, reinforced by the bad taste of non merit based social elitism from this bill. What Canada has told us is that they don't care about us but that they will use us if we are useful. Fine, that's good business. But this bill is bad business. I provide skills that Canada has a short supply of, I command a high salary, therefore pay a lot of income tax and increase the competitiveness of a Canadian company that competes globally therefore increasing GDP. I will now leave, first to the us for a number of years and later I'll return to london. I am articulate and reliable and have never caused social problems. I am not particularly loyal to Canada, it is not where I was born or have allegiance to but I share the same values as most Canadians. From my own experience, myself and others like me who leave are Canada's loss. The carrot is gone, I can't trust policy and I am done but I still had a good time.

Well said!